thesometimesaint Posted October 23, 2014 Posted October 23, 2014 What it means is that your explanation is old fashion and invalid. Except it really isn't. I was taught this too and I have no problem with this. Men are stupid at times and women are more caring as a result I would not doubt that there would be more women than men. I would I be surprised if this really does happen? Nope. Is there another explanation that makes sense too? I am sure there is. Really the reason people have a problem with polygamy is due to a cultural bias against it. I have yet to hear a compelling reason why it is bad esp when sanctioned by God. God can sanction what ever he wants. but there is good sociological reasons why polygamy will never(In this life) be anything more than a small minority practice.
JLHPROF Posted October 23, 2014 Posted October 23, 2014 God can sanction what ever he wants. but there is good sociological reasons why polygamy will never(In this life) be anything more than a small minority practice. I've always wondered about this. Is there any hard and fast evidence that the male/female ratio on earth is generally equal (righteousness aside)? The old Mosiah Hancock vision (questionable at best) indicates that there were to be many more females sent to earth than males. Are there any reliable statistics?
thesometimesaint Posted October 23, 2014 Posted October 23, 2014 (edited) I've always wondered about this. Is there any hard and fast evidence that the male/female ratio on earth is generally equal (righteousness aside)? The old Mosiah Hancock vision (questionable at best) indicates that there were to be many more females sent to earth than males. Are there any reliable statistics? Righteousness aside for every 100 females born 105 males are born. One or two generations doesn't make that much difference, but as time goes on more and more males are left unattached to family. It is the most dangerous of situations for any society. http://www.livescience.com/33491-male-female-sex-ratio.html Edited October 23, 2014 by thesometimesaint
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted October 23, 2014 Posted October 23, 2014 Righteousness aside for every 100 females born 105 males are born. One or two generations doesn't make that much difference, but as time goes on more and more males are left unattached to family. It is the most dangerous of situations for any society. http://www.livescience.com/33491-male-female-sex-ratio.htmlThat is the most dangerous for any society? Surely you jest.
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted October 23, 2014 Posted October 23, 2014 (edited) God can sanction what ever he wants. but there is good sociological reasons why polygamy will never(In this life) be anything more than a small minority practice.I never said that every one could practice it. But if Joe down the street wanted to, what compelling reason could you give to say "no" other than cultural bias? Edited October 23, 2014 by Mola Ram Suda Ram
JLHPROF Posted October 23, 2014 Posted October 23, 2014 Righteousness aside for every 100 females born 105 males are born. One or two generations doesn't make that much difference, but as time goes on more and more males are left unattached to family. It is the most dangerous of situations for any society. http://www.livescience.com/33491-male-female-sex-ratio.html Well, given those numbers if plural marriage were restored as Elder McConkie predicted we would just have to follow I Nephi 3:7 and assume God knows how to make it work.
thesometimesaint Posted October 23, 2014 Posted October 23, 2014 That is the most dangerous for any society? Surely you jest. Not really. The responsibilities and constraints of married w/children life are quite the break on single life. IE; A single man can pick up and move virtually anywhere at anytime he so desires. Married w/ children puts deep constraints on that because of schools, housing, even selections on size of cars used to transport them to and from school/work.
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted October 23, 2014 Posted October 23, 2014 Not really. The responsibilities and constraints of married w/children life are quite the break on single life. IE; A single man can pick up and move virtually anywhere at anytime he so desires. Married w/ children puts deep constraints on that because of schools, housing, even selections on size of cars used to transport them to and from school/work.OK, I see you like digging. Keep going I think it is working out for you.
Sleeper Cell Posted October 23, 2014 Posted October 23, 2014 Righteousness aside for every 100 females born 105 males are born. One or two generations doesn't make that much difference, but as time goes on more and more males are left unattached to family. It is the most dangerous of situations for any society. http://www.livescience.com/33491-male-female-sex-ratio.htmlSounds like a good argument for polyandry. 1
Silhouette Posted October 23, 2014 Posted October 23, 2014 What it means is that your explanation is old fashion and invalid. Except it really isn't. I was taught this too and I have no problem with this. Men are stupid at times and women are more caring as a result I would not doubt that there would be more women than men. I would I be surprised if this really does happen? Nope. Is there another explanation that makes sense too? I am sure there is.Really the reason people have a problem with polygamy is due to a cultural bias against it. I have yet to hear a compelling reason why it is bad esp when sanctioned by God.As mentioned in my original post, the explanation wasn't mine. I was quoting what a home teacher told me. I've never had a problem with plural marriage, but when I did inquire about the reason it would be necessary again, this explanation is what I was told.
KevinG Posted October 23, 2014 Posted October 23, 2014 I am of the opinion that the comparative population explanation is a well meaning bit faith promoting rumor. The reasons given I scripture are to raise up righteous seed, which for me implies the building of Godly dynasties beyond just procreation in general.
rockpond Posted October 23, 2014 Posted October 23, 2014 I am of the opinion that the comparative population explanation is a well meaning bit faith promoting rumor. The reasons given I scripture are to raise up righteous seed, which for me implies the building of Godly dynasties beyond just procreation in general.Interesting perspective... Could you elaborate? In what way was polygamy required to build up Godly dynasties?
JLHPROF Posted October 23, 2014 Posted October 23, 2014 I am of the opinion that the comparative population explanation is a well meaning bit faith promoting rumor. The reasons given I scripture are to raise up righteous seed, which for me implies the building of Godly dynasties beyond just procreation in general. Agreed. Everything God does is ALWAYS going to be to further his work. And what is God's work - to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man. Anything that hinders God sending his children to earth and returning them to the Celestial Kingdom is against his work and therefore evil. Anything that allows more of God's children to come to earth AND have and return to be like him (exalted) is good. That's why the "fewer children born in polygamy" argument doesn't hold water. A child sent to an upstanding Mormon adult home is more likely to grow up and live the gospel and achieve "immortality and eternal life". And with our current gender ratio is NOT even. What does Church gender ratio look like? Well, in 1981 it looked like this: Information from the 1981 Church Membership Survey of the United States and Canada indicates that gender ratios become smaller for older age groups, for singles, and for those who attend church regularly (Goodman and Heaton). For example, among singles over age 30 who attend church weekly, there are only 19 men for every 100 women. http://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Vital_Statistics So in 1981 among US & Canadian adult members, which would have produced more children likely to grow up LDS - monogamy or polygamy? Apparently the ratio is closer among young people (16-24ish), but among adults over 30. Big lack of men.And in case you think it's just 1981, see also:http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/53117548-78/mormons-utah-percent-mormon.html.csp (2011)http://ldsmag.com/article/1/12850/ (2013)http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/may/14/marriage-as-a-mormon-value/ (2009) 1
KevinG Posted October 24, 2014 Posted October 24, 2014 (edited) Interesting perspective... Could you elaborate? In what way was polygamy required to build up Godly dynasties?Apocryphal but the huge influence the descendants of polygamists have in the church today, despite their small population compared to convert populations. And then there is this...The great Prophet Jacob also pronounced these remarkable words uttered by inspiration: "Joseph is a fruitful bough, even a fruitful bough by a well, for his branches shall run over the wall." What a great prediction about the tribe of Joseph!There are several things to be understood in the prophecy. First, he should become a multitude of nations. We understand what this means. In the second place, his branches should run over the wall. Now what does this mean? The Lord in ancient times had a meaning for everything. It means that his tribe should become so numerous that they would take up more room than one small inheritance in Canaan, that they would spread out and go to some land at a great distance. You recollect that the Lord told Abraham to get upon a hill and look forth to the east and then to the west, then to the north and to the south. For, saith the Lord, "All the land thou seest I will give to thee and thy seed for an inheritance, for an everlasting possession." That was the blessing conferred upon one of Jacob's progenitors. Isaac had also the same blessing. Here Jacob wrestled with God or the angel near to the brook Jabbok. It will be recollected how Jacob sent his wives over the brook and stayed behind to wrestle with the angel, and they wrestled all night just as two men would wrestle. The angel not being able to overpower him by physical strength alone, but by miracle, touched the hollow of Jacob's thigh and it was withered, and in this way he was able to overpower him. The Lord pronounced great blessings upon his head, greater than those of his progenitors. This is the time that some say that Jacob received his conversion; but he did not repent of having more wives than one. What! Was he a holy man of God and had more wives than one? Yes; and instead of turning them off, he arranged them to go and meet his brother Esau; the first wife and her children, then the second with hers, and so on, and when Esau saw them, he inquired who they were? Jacob replied, "These are they whom God hath graciously given to thy servant." -Orson Pratt, the Blessings of Joseph, Joirnal of Discourses vol. 14 Edited October 24, 2014 by KevinG
KevinG Posted October 24, 2014 Posted October 24, 2014 Agreed. Everything God does is ALWAYS going to be to further his work. And what is God's work - to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man. Anything that hinders God sending his children to earth and returning them to the Celestial Kingdom is against his work and therefore evil. Anything that allows more of God's children to come to earth AND have and return to be like him (exalted) is good. That's why the "fewer children born in polygamy" argument doesn't hold water. A child sent to an upstanding Mormon adult home is more likely to grow up and live the gospel and achieve "immortality and eternal life". And with our current gender ratio is NOT even. What does Church gender ratio look like? Well, in 1981 it looked like this: So in 1981 among US & Canadian adult members, which would have produced more children likely to grow up LDS - monogamy or polygamy? Apparently the ratio is closer among young people (16-24ish), but among adults over 30. Big lack of men.And in case you think it's just 1981, see also:http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/53117548-78/mormons-utah-percent-mormon.html.csp (2011)http://ldsmag.com/article/1/12850/ (2013)http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/may/14/marriage-as-a-mormon-value/ (2009)Wow! Ok, I'm back to all of the above. When you take into account worthy Prieshood holdrers who can support large families vs. Available worthy women, the ratio is significantly different from general populations.
rockpond Posted October 24, 2014 Posted October 24, 2014 Apocryphal but the huge influence the descendants of polygamists have in the church today, despite their small population compared to convert populations. And then there is this...The great Prophet Jacob also pronounced these remarkable words uttered by inspiration: "Joseph is a fruitful bough, even a fruitful bough by a well, for his branches shall run over the wall." What a great prediction about the tribe of Joseph!There are several things to be understood in the prophecy. First, he should become a multitude of nations. We understand what this means. In the second place, his branches should run over the wall. Now what does this mean? The Lord in ancient times had a meaning for everything. It means that his tribe should become so numerous that they would take up more room than one small inheritance in Canaan, that they would spread out and go to some land at a great distance. You recollect that the Lord told Abraham to get upon a hill and look forth to the east and then to the west, then to the north and to the south. For, saith the Lord, "All the land thou seest I will give to thee and thy seed for an inheritance, for an everlasting possession." That was the blessing conferred upon one of Jacob's progenitors. Isaac had also the same blessing. Here Jacob wrestled with God or the angel near to the brook Jabbok. It will be recollected how Jacob sent his wives over the brook and stayed behind to wrestle with the angel, and they wrestled all night just as two men would wrestle. The angel not being able to overpower him by physical strength alone, but by miracle, touched the hollow of Jacob's thigh and it was withered, and in this way he was able to overpower him. The Lord pronounced great blessings upon his head, greater than those of his progenitors. This is the time that some say that Jacob received his conversion; but he did not repent of having more wives than one. What! Was he a holy man of God and had more wives than one? Yes; and instead of turning them off, he arranged them to go and meet his brother Esau; the first wife and her children, then the second with hers, and so on, and when Esau saw them, he inquired who they were? Jacob replied, "These are they whom God hath graciously given to thy servant." -Orson Pratt, the Blessings of Joseph, Joirnal of Discourses vol. 14From that perspective, wouldn't we have to consider Joseph as having failed at the purpose of polygamy?So if we turn then to Brigham Young, are you saying that he was meant to be like a modern day Jacob? How was his family a Godly dynasty that couldn't have happened if those children had been raised by a mother and father as we teach today?
Teancum Posted October 24, 2014 Posted October 24, 2014 No. Obedience to the Lord is never a mistakeThis assumes God commanded polygamy which propisition is highly dubious.
Tacenda Posted October 24, 2014 Posted October 24, 2014 (edited) Why am I having so much difficulty either "liking" a post about this new essay or sharing a post about this new essay on Facebook? I shared and then immediately took it off, then I liked a post, and immediately "unliked". Can someone please help me understand why, explain why I'm so petrified? Especially when it's church sanctioned. Why am I seeing so many posts about the new garment video but not anything except for one about the polygamy essay.Should I get over this and "like" it? Or do members need this to go away? (out of posts till morn)ETA: Sorry, I meant this to be on the new plural marriage essay thread. Edited October 24, 2014 by Tacenda
pogi Posted October 24, 2014 Posted October 24, 2014 Why am I having so much difficulty either "liking" a post about this new essay or sharing a post about this new essay on Facebook? I shared and then immediately took it off, then I liked a post, and immediately "unliked".Can someone please help me understand why, explain why I'm so petrified?Especially when it's church sanctioned. Why am I seeing so many posts about the new garment video but not anything except for one about the polygamy essay.Should I get over this and "like" it? Or do members need this to go away?(out of posts till morn) I vote that you "like it"
KevinG Posted October 24, 2014 Posted October 24, 2014 From that perspective, wouldn't we have to consider Joseph as having failed at the purpose of polygamy?So if we turn then to Brigham Young, are you saying that he was meant to be like a modern day Jacob? How was his family a Godly dynasty that couldn't have happened if those children had been raised by a mother and father as we teach today?Joseph did not fail, and in fact many of Brigham's wives were sealed to him in the eternities. I'm assured the blessings will be his from the sacrifice.The blessings don't come from the mathematical reality of descendents, it comes from being linked to other families within the Priesthood, other tribes within Israel, and the blessings come from obedience.Looking at it as a mortal population problem only is superficial.
KevinG Posted October 24, 2014 Posted October 24, 2014 This assumes God commanded polygamy which propisition is highly dubious.You having answers from God that the first four prophets of this dispensation did not is highly dubious. 1
rockpond Posted October 24, 2014 Posted October 24, 2014 Why am I having so much difficulty either "liking" a post about this new essay or sharing a post about this new essay on Facebook? I shared and then immediately took it off, then I liked a post, and immediately "unliked". Can someone please help me understand why, explain why I'm so petrified? Especially when it's church sanctioned. Why am I seeing so many posts about the new garment video but not anything except for one about the polygamy essay.Should I get over this and "like" it? Or do members need this to go away? (out of posts till morn)ETA: Sorry, I meant this to be on the new plural marriage essay thread.I think you're nervous because it's such a taboo subject. I don't want to like/share it because I know the issue has caused many a faith crisis. But I do want to like/share it because it would be better for people to get info about it from LDS.org. But then it's not really a very complete essay so then I don't want to "like" it. See... I'm torn just like you.
JLHPROF Posted October 24, 2014 Posted October 24, 2014 (edited) You having answers from God that the first four prophets of this dispensation did not is highly dubious. First seven prophets lived it. First six knew Joseph Smith. First five learned plural marriage from Joseph Smith.And 10/15 (that we have proof) who have passed on were sealed to more than one wife. Edited October 24, 2014 by JLHPROF 1
rockpond Posted October 24, 2014 Posted October 24, 2014 Joseph did not fail, and in fact many of Brigham's wives were sealed to him in the eternities. I'm assured the blessings will be his from the sacrifice.The blessings don't come from the mathematical reality of descendents, it comes from being linked to other families within the Priesthood, other tribes within Israel, and the blessings come from obedience.Looking at it as a mortal population problem only is superficial.Okay, it seemed like you were presenting these dynasties as being the result of posterity like that of Jacob. If it isn't about that, if it is about being linked to other families through the priesthood, aren't we doing that now, without polygamy?
EllenMaksoud Posted October 24, 2014 Posted October 24, 2014 Or is it still a heavenly commandment for exaltation? D&C 132 talks about it and Brigham Young in his Journal of Discourses said that the only people who become gods are the ones that enter into polygamy. We don't practice it anymore, except for those that lose a loved one and then remarry like 2 of my uncles, but should worthy men members expect to be provided multiple wives in heaven to help populate their multiple worlds with spirit children? It does make sense, but it sounds kind of unfair to the women of the church. How does this all work out?I think it is pretty simple. Go read Jacob. As to what made Joseph Smith advocate it? You, be the judge. In certain extreme circumstances would you do it? I would.
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