How Credible Are Assurances Of Non-Compulsory Homosexual Weddings By Lds Priesthood?

[Buzzard]

A lot of religious conservatives, not just LDS, are in shock at how something that was not even imagined twenty years ago, only became law in one lonely state ten years ago, and was opposed not only by Republicans but Democrats as well (Remember, DOMA was signed and supported by Bill Clinton), has suddenly become a bedrock right that only despicable bigots oppose. It's the legal equivalent of the Nazi  invasion of France, over almost before anyone knew what happened. 

Given the events of the past few years, the legal consequences imposed on businesses whose owners have a moral objection to SSM, and some of the things being said by admittedly the militant fringe of the gay movement, (a dozen years ago, only the most militant of gays were agitating for marriage) is it any wonder that some of us are a bit nervous?

Personally, I don't think we can be forced to marry or seal sexually active homosexuals, but the gays and their new government allies can sure make life miserable for us if we don't get with the program. Loss of tax exempt status both for the church and it's members donations, universities cutting athletic and academic ties with BYU, silent discrimination in employment and/or promotion due to a desire to avoid antagonizing gays (this is already happening at some companies), and so on.

And yes, I really think a lot of these things will happen, plus other things I haven't even thought of. That's why people of faith are trying to pass religious exemption laws, though I'm sure the lawyers for the gay rights groups are already warming up their laptops to haul those laws into court.

[teddyaware]

A lot of religious conservatives, not just LDS, are in shock at how something that was not even imagined twenty years ago, only became law in one lonely state ten years ago, and was opposed not only by Republicans but Democrats as well (Remember, DOMA was signed and supported by Bill Clinton), has suddenly become a bedrock right that only despicable bigots oppose. It's the legal equivalent of the Nazi  invasion of France, over almost before anyone knew what happened. 

Given the events of the past few years, the legal consequences imposed on businesses whose owners have a moral objection to SSM, and some of the things being said by admittedly the militant fringe of the gay movement, (a dozen years ago, only the most militant of gays were agitating for marriage) is it any wonder that some of us are a bit nervous?

Personally, I don't think we can be forced to marry or seal sexually active homosexuals, but the gays and their new government allies can sure make life miserable for us if we don't get with the program. Loss of tax exempt status both for the church and it's members donations, universities cutting athletic and academic ties with BYU, silent discrimination in employment and/or promotion due to a desire to avoid antagonizing gays (this is already happening at some companies), and so on.

And yes, I really think a lot of these things will happen, plus other things I haven't even thought of. That's why people of faith are trying to pass religious exemption laws, though I'm sure the lawyers for the gay rights groups are already warming up their laptops to haul those laws into court.

You hit the bullseye with this. Those who know, comprehend and have a testimony of the prophecies pertaining to the destructive spread of the terrible wickedness of the latter-days will understand the truly diabolical nature of the adversary of men's souls and will not be complacent in the face of the very real bourgeoning of the ungodliness we see all around us. Those who really understand the truth about what happens to societies when they ripen in iniquity will not cry "fantasy" as they make fatuous assertions that the citizens of the United States need not fear because, for reasons beyond all reason. the wicked can be counted on to uphold Constitutional guarantees of religious freedom. Job one for the adversary of men's souls is to destroy freedom and free agency, as the following most solemn prophecy pertaining to these latter-days makes perfectly clear...

23 Wherefore, O ye Gentiles (us), it is wisdom in God that these things should be shown unto you, that thereby ye may repent of your sins, and suffer not that these murderous combinations shall get above you, which are built up to get power and gain—and the work, yea, even the work of destruction come upon you, yea, even the sword of the justice of the Eternal God shall fall upon you, to your overthrow and destruction if ye shall suffer these things to be.

24 Wherefore, the Lord commandeth you, when ye shall see these things come among you that ye shall awake to a sense of your awful situation, because of this secret combination (singular) which shall be among you; or wo be unto it, because of the blood of them who have been slain; for they cry from the dust for vengeance upon it, and also upon those who built it up.

25 For it cometh to pass that whoso buildeth it up seeketh to overthrow the freedom of all lands, nations, and countries; and it bringeth to pass the destruction of all people, for it is built up by the devil, who is the father of all lies; even that same liar who beguiled our first parents, yea, even that same liar who hath caused man to commit murder from the beginning; who hath hardened the hearts of men that they have murdered the prophets, and stoned them, and cast them out from the beginning. (Ether 8: 23-25)

In the face of such warnings, only the fool will cry "fantasy."

Edited October 25, 2014 by teddyaware

[Bob Crockett]

of the Nazi  invasion of France, over almost before anyone knew what happened. 

 

 

And yes, I really think a lot of these things will happen, plus other things I haven't even thought of. That's why people of faith are trying to pass religious exemption laws, though I'm sure the lawyers for the gay rights groups are already warming up their laptops to haul those laws into court.

Somehow I don't think gays are like the Nazis and it is just fear mongering to say so.

but the gays and their new government allies can sure make life miserable for us if we don't get with the program. 

 

That has already happened.  The Church either has to give up its stand on homosexual conduct or see its members and institutions persecuted.  I'm ready for the persecution and think it is inevitable.

Loss of tax exempt status both for the church and it's members donations,

 

One might ask why tax policy should favor religions in the first place.  Why should religions not pay tax on income (other than contributions) and on the property they own?  Isn't that fundamentally a violation of the First Amendment's establishment clause?

 

There is no tax exempt status for members' donations. Rather, it goes beyond that. They get a deduction.  Why isn't that a violation of the establishment clause?

 

universities cutting athletic and academic ties with BYU, silent discrimination in employment and/or promotion due to a desire to avoid antagonizing gays (this is already happening at some companies), and so on.

 

That's going to happen and has happened.   Stanford wouldn't play BYU for decades.  But, like I say, your lament is rather meaningless as the Church isn't going to change a fundamental doctrine.

 

In a land where freedom reigns and free will ought to rule supreme (my libertarism is creeping in), people should be free to create religions which condemn homosexuality and forbid homosexual marriage.  On the other hand, people ought to be free to marry the person they choose, gender notwithstanding.  Government should be out of the marriage business and stop licensing pastors.   People ought to be free to boycott (and urge others to do so) institutions whose practices they dislike, including religions and the schools they sponsor.   Government should not coerce people into non-boycotting practices and government should permit people to fritter away their existence in petty grievances if they choose.

 

You decry the so-called homosexual agenda and how it combines against the Church and BYU.  Yet, what is the solution?  Government intervention?  

Edited October 25, 2014 by Bob Crockett

[california boy]

You didn't have to bite, cb.

 

I, like others, appreciate your expression that, notwithstanding your uncritical and sweeping support of antidiscrimation laws, you would never support their use to compel religions to perform SSMs.

 

I just don't believe it.

 

And that is where I and others part company.

 

They are willing to credit your, what appear to you and them to be, good intentions.

 

I have been thinking about this post and actually your motive for even starting this thread and I realize a very big difference between you and me.  I believe fully in defending everyone's constitutional rights guaranteed to them.  You do not.  You are only interested in defending your constitutional rights.  When it comes to gay Americans, for the past 10 years, you have done everything you could to prevent them from the equal protection the constitution affords them.  Now that it looks like the government is going to respect those rights, then you are worried that those who support civil rights for everyone, will not allow you your guaranteed rights.  I can see why that makes you nervous.  And I am sure there are plenty who will not come to the churches aid in insuring it receives the protection of the law.  Many will say, "Where was the church when others needed their rights defended."  And sadly even more poignant, this was a people who did everything they could to prevent gays from obtaining their rights.  They may very well work to prevent the church members from keeping their constitutional rights.  The church has made a lot of enemies in it's quest to take away civil rights of gay Americans.  I however, believe that those laws are strong enough to endure continued religious protection.  And I am confident enought that the maority of those who supported gay rights will also support religious rights.  But like you, I don't think that all will be so forgiving of the church and it's members.

 

Like I said, personally I believe in defending everyone's legal constitutional rights in this country, not just the gays.  It is sad that you do not feel the same and as such can not imagine me wanting those constitutional rights protected for church members.

[Daniel2]

I have been thinking about this post and actually your motive for even starting this thread and I realize a very big difference between you and me. I believe fully in defending everyone's constitutional rights guaranteed to them. You do not. You are only interested in defending your constitutional rights. When it comes to gay Americans, for the past 10 years, you have done everything you could to prevent them from the equal protection the constitution affords them. Now that it looks like the government is going to respect those rights, then you are worried that those who support civil rights for everyone, will not allow you your guaranteed rights. I can see why that makes you nervous. And I am sure there are plenty who will not come to the churches aid in insuring it receives the protection of the law. Many will say, "Where was the church when others needed their rights defended." And sadly even more poignant, this was a people who did everything they could to prevent gays from obtaining their rights. They may very well work to prevent the church members from keeping their constitutional rights. The church has made a lot of enemies in it's quest to take away civil rights of gay Americans. I however, believe that those laws are strong enough to endure continued religious protection. And I am confident enought that the maority of those who supported gay rights will also support religious rights. But like you, I don't think that all will be so forgiving of the church and it's members.

Like I said, personally I believe in defending everyone's legal constitutional rights in this country, not just the gays. It is sad that you do not feel the same and as such can not imagine me wanting those constitutional rights protected for church members.

This was a very insightful post, CB.

It does add a lot of perspective into the potential mindset as to why some may be fearful that we may not fight for their constitutional rights to religious liberty...

They fear we will do unto them as they have done unto us.

An interesting twist on the Golden Rule....

Edited October 25, 2014 by Daniel2

[The Nehor]

You hit the bullseye with this. Those who know, comprehend and have a testimony of the prophecies pertaining to the destructive spread of the terrible wickedness of the latter-days will understand the truly diabolical nature of the adversary of men's souls and will not be complacent in the face of the very real bourgeoning of the ungodliness we see all around us. Those who really understand the truth about what happens to societies when they ripen in iniquity will not cry "fantasy" as they make fatuous assertions that the citizens of the United States need not fear because, for reasons beyond all reason. the wicked can be counted on to uphold Constitutional guarantees of religious freedom. Job one for the adversary of men's souls is to destroy freedom and free agency, as the following most solemn prophecy pertaining to these latter-days makes perfectly clear...

23 Wherefore, O ye Gentiles (us), it is wisdom in God that these things should be shown unto you, that thereby ye may repent of your sins, and suffer not that these murderous combinations shall get above you, which are built up to get power and gain—and the work, yea, even the work of destruction come upon you, yea, even the sword of the justice of the Eternal God shall fall upon you, to your overthrow and destruction if ye shall suffer these things to be.

24 Wherefore, the Lord commandeth you, when ye shall see these things come among you that ye shall awake to a sense of your awful situation, because of this secret combination (singular) which shall be among you; or wo be unto it, because of the blood of them who have been slain; for they cry from the dust for vengeance upon it, and also upon those who built it up.

25 For it cometh to pass that whoso buildeth it up seeketh to overthrow the freedom of all lands, nations, and countries; and it bringeth to pass the destruction of all people, for it is built up by the devil, who is the father of all lies; even that same liar who beguiled our first parents, yea, even that same liar who hath caused man to commit murder from the beginning; who hath hardened the hearts of men that they have murdered the prophets, and stoned them, and cast them out from the beginning. (Ether 8: 23-25)

In the face of such warnings, only the fool will cry "fantasy."

"Fantasy!"

There are many prophecies about the sins and combinations of the Last Days. They talk about things like wealth, greed, whores, expensive clothing and housing, class divisions, slavery, lust for power, and grinding the faces of the poor. One can accept the prophecies and not believe gay marriage will be the instigator or compel us to give up the temples (though it is of course a sin that will weaken people as all sin does). I understand why it is an obsession. Fighting the things the scriptures talk about requires disciplining ourselves, changing our lives, and making real sacrifices. Condemning a sin most of us have no temptation for is easy, requires no self-examination, and if we can blame the Last Day collapse on it then we can neatly divide everyone into good guys and bad guys. It allows us to condemn things we do not fully understand and imagine we are virtuous for doing so like a eunuch being proud of keeping the law of chastity and looking down on those who do not.

This will not go that far. The true fall will come from within from temptations common to all and not a small minority embracing a vice only they desire. The scriptures do not mention it as the primary instigator so why do we have so many people here convinced they can declare it to be so?

[california boy]

You hit the bullseye with this. Those who know, comprehend and have a testimony of the prophecies pertaining to the destructive spread of the terrible wickedness of the latter-days will understand the truly diabolical nature of the adversary of men's souls and will not be complacent in the face of the very real bourgeoning of the ungodliness we see all around us. Those who really understand the truth about what happens to societies when they ripen in iniquity will not cry "fantasy" as they make fatuous assertions that the citizens of the United States need not fear because, for reasons beyond all reason. the wicked can be counted on to uphold Constitutional guarantees of religious freedom. Job one for the adversary of men's souls is to destroy freedom and free agency, as the following most solemn prophecy pertaining to these latter-days makes perfectly clear...

23 Wherefore, O ye Gentiles (us), it is wisdom in God that these things should be shown unto you, that thereby ye may repent of your sins, and suffer not that these murderous combinations shall get above you, which are built up to get power and gain—and the work, yea, even the work of destruction come upon you, yea, even the sword of the justice of the Eternal God shall fall upon you, to your overthrow and destruction if ye shall suffer these things to be.

24 Wherefore, the Lord commandeth you, when ye shall see these things come among you that ye shall awake to a sense of your awful situation, because of this secret combination (singular) which shall be among you; or wo be unto it, because of the blood of them who have been slain; for they cry from the dust for vengeance upon it, and also upon those who built it up.

25 For it cometh to pass that whoso buildeth it up seeketh to overthrow the freedom of all lands, nations, and countries; and it bringeth to pass the destruction of all people, for it is built up by the devil, who is the father of all lies; even that same liar who beguiled our first parents, yea, even that same liar who hath caused man to commit murder from the beginning; who hath hardened the hearts of men that they have murdered the prophets, and stoned them, and cast them out from the beginning. (Ether 8: 23-25)

In the face of such warnings, only the fool will cry "fantasy."

You are very good at whipping up the evils of the last days and linking it to the acceptance of homosexuality in our time.  But I asked this question before and never got an answer.  Do you think that the acceptance of homosexual behavior is more prevalent now than during the time of Christ?  Did Christ think that homosexual behavior that was prevelent in His life time would bring down the rath of Satan?  What justification do you have that gay marriage will be the "wickedness" that is fulfilling the dire prophecies you site when there is no record of Christ even condemning homosexuality?  If this is the wickedness that is going to cause the end of the earth, you would think Christ would have mentioned something about it.  

 

Instead Christ talks about things like loving everyone, including your enemies.  Loving one another as I have loved you.  The gospel Christ taught is a gospel of love and inclusiveness.  When Christ defended the adulterest from those that would condemn her, somehow I think there are many in the church today that would have turned on Christ for telling them to be more concerned with their own sins than the sins of others.  What the Book of Mormon does teach is that when church members are more concerned with the sin of others then their own sins, then the end of the world will truly come.

[teddyaware]

You are very good at whipping up the evils of the last days and linking it to the acceptance of homosexuality in our time.  But I asked this question before and never got an answer.  Do you think that the acceptance of homosexual behavior is more prevalent now than during the time of Christ?  Did Christ think that homosexual behavior that was prevelent in His life time would bring down the rath of Satan?  What justification do you have that gay marriage will be the "wickedness" that is fulfilling the dire prophecies you site when there is no record of Christ even condemning homosexuality?  If this is the wickedness that is going to cause the end of the earth, you would think Christ would have mentioned something about it.  

 

Instead Christ talks about things like loving everyone, including your enemies.  Loving one another as I have loved you.  The gospel Christ taught is a gospel of love and inclusiveness.  When Christ defended the adulterest from those that would condemn her, somehow I think there are many in the church today that would have turned on Christ for telling them to be more concerned with their own sins than the sins of others.  What the Book of Mormon does teach is that when church members are more concerned with the sin of others then their own sins, then the end of the world will truly come.

 

Though you'll likely be dubious, when I wrote my post I was thinking of the sweeping tide of wickedness in general and not of homosexuality in particular.

 

I didn't answer you the first time when you asked about homosexuality in ancient Rome for two reasons: 1) I'm on "limited" status on this board and didn't want to waste one of my limited number of posts answering a question that seemed irrelevant. 2) For me, it's neither here nor there whether or not homosexuality was more prevalent in ancient Rome than it is today. On this theme, I take my cues from the General Authorities, who speak for the Lord, and their Proclamation of the Family. They're more concerned about what's happening today and, therefore, so am I.

 

Christ did indeed forgive the woman taken in adultery, but after extending His forgiveness He said "go the way and sin no more." He didn't say go they way and sin some more.

 

Now a question for you: Please take the verses I quoted from Ether 8: 23-25 and show me why you seem to believe Moroni's warning to the Gentiles of the latter-days wasn't inspired and motivated by Christ-like love and a fervent desire on his part to help sinners find forgiveness? I ask this of you because you seem to have rejected Moroni's message out of hand without giving his words of warning due consideration.

 

God's love can seem harsh at times, but it's still love.

Edited October 26, 2014 by teddyaware

[rodheadlee]

"Fantasy!"

There are many prophecies about the sins and combinations of the Last Days. They talk about things like wealth, greed, whores, expensive clothing and housing, class divisions, slavery, lust for power, and grinding the faces of the poor. One can accept the prophecies and not believe gay marriage will be the instigator or compel us to give up the temples (though it is of course a sin that will weaken people as all sin does). I understand why it is an obsession. Fighting the things the scriptures talk about requires disciplining ourselves, changing our lives, and making real sacrifices. Condemning a sin most of us have no temptation for is easy, requires no self-examination, and if we can blame the Last Day collapse on it then we can neatly divide everyone into good guys and bad guys. It allows us to condemn things we do not fully understand and imagine we are virtuous for doing so like a eunuch being proud of keeping the law of chastity and looking down on those who do not.

This will not go that far. The true fall will come from within from temptations common to all and not a small minority embracing a vice only they desire. The scriptures do not mention it as the primary instigator so why do we have so many people here convinced they can declare it to be so?

Am I the only one who thinks Daniel 12: 8 - 13 applies here ? It was a personal revelation I had while studying Daniel. I wasn't looking for forced SSM as an answer . I just wanted to know the meaning of these verses by Daniel and that was the answer I got.. I still don'y really understand the verse 12 part. I suspect this occurs during the great tribulation preceding Christ's return and those that made it through to the millenium stil in their mortal bodiues will be blessed to do Temple work with Jesus Christ in person.

 

8  And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?

9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

Edited October 25, 2014 by rodheadlee

[Tacenda]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Proposition_8_(2008)

 

Proposition 8 came into immediate effect on November 5, 2008, the day after the elections. Demonstrations and protests occurred across the state and nation. Same-sex couples and government entities, including couples who had married before then, filed numerous lawsuits with the California Supreme Court challenging the proposition's validity and effect on previously administered same-sex marriages. In Strauss v. Horton, the California Supreme Court upheld Proposition 8, but allowed the existing same-sex marriages to stand (under the grandfather clause principle). (Justice Moreno dissented that exceptions to the equal protection clause could not be made by any majority since its whole purpose was to protect minorities against the will of a majority.)

 

Did the church shoot itself in the leg when fighting SSM with the big guns?  Did the full on fight for heterosexual marriage ignite the lawsuits and is it why they are in the spot they're in?  If they had laid low would it just be a few states with SSM being legal?  Is the church to blame somewhat for bringing out the anger from SSA and supporters all over the world.  Would this issue just be something that would go unnoticed or incomprehensible if no one brought it to the forefront for the public to sympathize with SSA and equality.     

[teddyaware]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Proposition_8_(2008)

 

Proposition 8 came into immediate effect on November 5, 2008, the day after the elections. Demonstrations and protests occurred across the state and nation. Same-sex couples and government entities, including couples who had married before then, filed numerous lawsuits with the California Supreme Court challenging the proposition's validity and effect on previously administered same-sex marriages. In Strauss v. Horton, the California Supreme Court upheld Proposition 8, but allowed the existing same-sex marriages to stand (under the grandfather clause principle). (Justice Moreno dissented that exceptions to the equal protection clause could not be made by any majority since its whole purpose was to protect minorities against the will of a majority.)

 

Did the church shoot itself in the leg when fighting SSM with the big guns?  Did the full on fight for heterosexual marriage ignite the lawsuits and is it why they are in the spot they're in?  If they had laid low would it just be a few states with SSM being legal?  Is the church to blame somewhat for bringing out the anger from SSA and supporters all over the world.  Would this issue just be something that would go unnoticed or incomprehensible if no one brought it to the forefront for the public to sympathize with SSA and equality.

There is no doubt whatsoever in my mind that we would sooner or later (not much later for sure) be in precisely the same situation we are in today, whether or not the Church had fought hard for the passage Proposition 8. The wicked and morally ignorant are now in the majority in this country and nothing is going to stop the oncoming tide of sweeping social "reforms" until the "enlightened" secular humanists get all they want and then some. Spiritually blind people always think they know better than God what's best for the health and wellbeing of a society, and so now these folks will get their chance to see if they're right.

Edited October 26, 2014 by teddyaware

[california boy]

 

Though you'll likely be dubious, when I wrote my post I was thinking of the sweeping tide of wickedness in general and not of homosexuality in particular.

 

I didn't answer you the first time when you asked about homosexuality in ancient Rome for two reasons: 1) I'm on "limited" status on this board and didn't want to waste one of my limited number of posts answering a question that seemed irrelevant. 2) For me, it's neither here nor there whether or not homosexuality was more prevalent in ancient Rome than it is today. On this theme, I take my cues from the General Authorities, who speak for the Lord, and their Proclamation of the Family. They're more concerned about what's happening today and, therefore, so am I.

Well certainly you post is not the first to imply gay marriage as being a sign that the world is more wicked than it has ever been in the past.  It is refreshing to have someone acknowledge that the end of the world is not just because of gay marriage.  However, it seems that every generation thinks that they are living in "the end of times".  Christ lived in a time of such wickedness that children and wives were routinely ripped from the arms of their husbands thrown into slavery, and the men were all put to death.  Men were routinely crucified simply for protesting the Roman government.  Some of the apostles thought that Christ would come back during their lifetime to cleanse the earth with fire.  Does that sound like a more wicked time than now?  

 

There were many in Joseph Smith's time that thought the world would end in their life time.  Even Joseph Smith made some reference to the end of the world being near.  During Joseph Smith's time, prostitution and illegitimate births in London were so high, the government passed laws requiring any woman the police suspected of caring STD's were forced to be tested. Men could divorce their wives if caught in adultery, but men could commit adultery and the woman had to stay married to the men unless he abused her.  This combined with poor economic opportunities lead to a huge percentage of men with mistresses.  I have read estimates of as much as 20% of the women in London were prostitutes during that time period.  Does that sound like a more wicked time than now?

 

My point is, even if you view homosexuality as a sin, it seems minor compared to mass murder, slavery, prostitution and illegitimate births.  So what actually do you base your claim that we live in a time where wickedness is so bad, it will bring destruction and the end of the world.  Just what is your criteria for wickedness to make such a statement as being some fulfillment of prophesy?  

 

Christ did indeed forgive the woman taken in adultery, but after extending His forgiveness He said "go the way and sin no more." He didn't say go they way and sin some more.

 

No one has suggested that Christ said to go and sin some more.  But clearly the message of Christ is that it is not your job to cast stones at others for their sins, but to worry about your own sins.  

 

 

Now a question for you: Please take the verses I quoted from Ether 8: 23-25 and show me why you seem to believe Moroni's warning to the Gentiles of the latter-days wasn't inspired and motivated by Christ-like love and a fervent desire on his part to help sinners find forgiveness? I ask this of you because you seem to have rejected Moroni's message out of hand without giving his words of warning due consideration.

 

God's love can seem harsh at times, but it's still love.

 

 

I am only rejecting your interpretation that gay marriage or even the increased acceptance of homosexuality is some kind of proof of a more wicked world. Or even the general statement of more wickedness than ever before on the earth.  Maybe you could answer me this.  In the world today, is there

 

1.  More acceptance of homosexuality than during the time of Christ

2.  More murder during Roman times

3.  More slavery during Roman times

4.  More prostitution during Elizabethan times

5.  More child abuse, especially physical abuse

6.  More illegitimate births than ever before

7.  More discrimination than ever before

 

Feel free to add any evils you feel makes this time period like no other in the history of mankind.  I hope you understand where I am going with my objection to your statement.  Maybe you can add some insight as to why you think the world is fulfilling the prophesy of Moroni and is more wicked today than in times past.

[teddyaware]

Well certainly you post is not the first to imply gay marriage as being a sign that the world is more wicked than it has ever been in the past.  It is refreshing to have someone acknowledge that the end of the world is not just because of gay marriage.  However, it seems that every generation thinks that they are living in "the end of times".  Christ lived in a time of such wickedness that children and wives were routinely ripped from the arms of their husbands thrown into slavery, and the men were all put to death.  Men were routinely crucified simply for protesting the Roman government.  Some of the apostles thought that Christ would come back during their lifetime to cleanse the earth with fire.  Does that sound like a more wicked time than now?  

 

There were many in Joseph Smith's time that thought the world would end in their life time.  Even Joseph Smith made some reference to the end of the world being near.  During Joseph Smith's time, prostitution and illegitimate births in London were so high, the government passed laws requiring any woman the police suspected of caring STD's were forced to be tested. Men could divorce their wives if caught in adultery, but men could commit adultery and the woman had to stay married to the men unless he abused her.  This combined with poor economic opportunities lead to a huge percentage of men with mistresses.  I have read estimates of as much as 20% of the women in London were prostitutes during that time period.  Does that sound like a more wicked time than now?

 

My point is, even if you view homosexuality as a sin, it seems minor compared to mass murder, slavery, prostitution and illegitimate births.  So what actually do you base your claim that we live in a time where wickedness is so bad, it will bring destruction and the end of the world.  Just what is your criteria for wickedness to make such a statement as being some fulfillment of prophesy?  

 

 

No one has suggested that Christ said to go and sin some more.  But clearly the message of Christ is that it is not your job to cast stones at others for their sins, but to worry about your own sins.  

 

 

 

I am only rejecting your interpretation that gay marriage or even the increased acceptance of homosexuality is some kind of proof of a more wicked world. Or even the general statement of more wickedness than ever before on the earth.  Maybe you could answer me this.  In the world today, is there

 

1.  More acceptance of homosexuality than during the time of Christ

2.  More murder during Roman times

3.  More slavery during Roman times

4.  More prostitution during Elizabethan times

5.  More child abuse, especially physical abuse

6.  More illegitimate births than ever before

7.  More discrimination than ever before

 

Feel free to add any evils you feel makes this time period like no other in the history of mankind.  I hope you understand where I am going with my objection to your statement.  Maybe you can add some insight as to why you think the world is fulfilling the prophesy of Moroni and is more wicked today than in times past.

I cannot expect you to have follow the trajectories of my many line of thought that I've posted on this board throughout the last three years, but I have always made it clear that I believe the world is now engaged in a process of ripening in iniquity. We have not hit rock bottom yet, and we no doubt still have a long way to go before we do. Nevertheless, the world is even now an horrifically wicked place.

I'll take your items one at a time, not necessarily in the order you placed them, and you can comment as we go along...

You're not serious about comparing ancient Rome's atrocities to those perpetrated in the modern age, are you? How about the 10 million innocents slaughtered by the Germans during World War II? How about the estimated 30 + million innocents slaughtered by Stalin? And then there's the 60 to 75 million murdered by Mao and Chow.

I believe the only reason why the shear magnitude of the number of deaths by genocide have decreased of late isn't because we're any better, but because the threat of nuclear war and modern communications have temporarily  dampened the murderous proclivities of many would-be mass murderers. Nevertheless, murders by the hundreds of thousands continue today. And then there's the holocaust of abortion that continues unabated, almost as if this nauseating atrocity is some sort of sacrosanct holy sacrament of the progressive age.

The Romans can't even hold a candle to magnitude of the butcheries of the modern age, but I must admit we carry out our genocides with a bit more finesse.

[The Nehor]

There is no doubt whatsoever in my mind that we would sooner or later (not much later for sure) be in precisely the same situation we are in today, whether or not the Church had fought hard for the passage Proposition 8. The wicked and morally ignorant are now in the majority in this country and nothing is going to stop the oncoming tide of sweeping social "reforms" until the "enlightened" secular humanists get all they want and then some. Spiritually blind people always think they know better than God what's best for the health and wellbeing of a society, and so now these folks will get their chance to see if they're right.

 

This is part of an endless cycle. Moral and social restraints tend to loosen up when there is little danger and then tighten up when things get dangerous. It is a cycle repeated throughout history. I see no reason to believe that this extreme edge of the cycle is the end. Then again I am not sure if this loosening is that much safer then the tightening up that comes in times of trouble. The loosening may allow same-sex marriage and sexual promiscuity but the tightening tends to give us things like McCarthyism and the Inquisition.

 

I am not saying that things are not getting bad but we do not know the future. As shocked as the Book of Mormon writers were when they told of how quickly people slipped into wickedness they were equally surprised by sudden shifts towards righteousness. Yes, this is the last dispensation but we do not know how far along we are. Since the days of Joseph Smith many saints have predicted a near end due to wickedness but we are still waiting. It will happen but I am not pinning my hopes of same sex marriage being the nail in the coffin.

[california boy]

I cannot expect you to have follow the trajectories of my many line of thought that I've posted on this board throughout the last three years, but I have always made it clear that I believe the world is now engaged in a process of ripening in iniquity. We have not hit rock bottom yet, and we no doubt still have a long way to go before we do. Nevertheless, the world is even now an horrifically wicked place.

I'll take your items one at a time, not necessarily in the order you placed them, and you can comment as we go along...

You're not serious about comparing ancient Rome's atrocities to those perpetrated in the modern age, are you? How about the 10 million innocents slaughtered by the Germans during World War II? How about the estimated 30 + million innocents slaughtered by Stalin? And then there's the 60 to 75 million murdered by Mao and Chow.

I believe the only reason why the shear magnitude of the number of deaths by genocide have decreased of late isn't because we're any better, but because the threat of nuclear war and modern communications have temporarily  dampened the murderous proclivities of many would-be mass murderers. Nevertheless, murders by the hundreds of thousands continue today. And then there's the holocaust of abortion that continues unabated, almost as if this nauseating atrocity is some sort of sacrosanct holy sacrament of the progressive age.

The Romans can't even hold a candle to magnitude of the butcheries of the modern age, but I must admit we carry out our genocides with a bit more finesse.

Hummm. Wouldn't your post make the world less wicked than it was a generation or two ago??

[Storm Rider]

It is hard for me to believe any assurances.  I just don't think that many of us have a good crystal ball on what will and will not happen in the future. I don't happen to be a very trusting in our government.  I wish I was not able to say that, but they just don't seem worthy of trust.  I don't trust our judiciary; they create law; sometimes out of whole cloth and sometimes out of precedent.  I don't trust our Executive branch because they have all done things that mislead, cover up, and hide what should be an clear process.  

 

Wicked societies do wicked things.  If you think that this is a time of increasing wickedness it is very easy to have a negative perception about the future.  If you think that everything is good and people are basically trying to do what is right then there is reason for hope.  

 

The last fifty years has been relatively difficult for Americans.  We used to think that our government only did positive things; that we understood the meaning of duty, honor, and country.  Our politicians and our society have taught us that we have forgotten the meanings of those words.  

 

What is going on with the creation of new rights for those that pursue a homosexual lifestyle is a symptom and not a cause of our decadent society. 

[rodheadlee]

Hummm. Wouldn't your post make the world less wicked than it was a generation or two ago??

No,. what do think is going on in the Middle East with Isis?

[california boy]

No,. what do think is going on in the Middle East with Isis?

Another religious group forcing it's views on another group of people and wanting power over them. What do you think is going on in the Middle East?

[california boy]

What is going on with the creation of new rights for those that pursue a homosexual lifestyle is a symptom and not a cause of our decadent society. 

I know.  Really.  I still can't believe the recently passed 14th amendment is actually the law in this country now.  What next?  I am sure other groups are now going to try and pursue their lifestyle that doesn't effect others in the least as well.  How could a government possibly survive allowing freedom and equality under the law to ALL it's citizens.  It will never work.  It was so much better when the privileged religious whites could dictate others lifestyle.  And now I hear the blacks want equal protection under the law as well.  These last 50 years have been rough in America.  Don't tell me I didn't warn you.  Truely this is a sign of the wickedness of the last days.  Treating people equally and with respect was never a theme of Christ's teachings.

Edited October 26, 2014 by california boy

[california boy]

Sorry quoted myself.  

Edited October 26, 2014 by california boy

[Storm Rider]

I know.  Really.  I still can't believe the recently passed 14th amendment is actually the law in this country now.  What next?  I am sure other groups are now going to try and pursue their lifestyle that doesn't effect others in the least as well.  How could a government possibly survive allowing freedom and equality under the law to ALL it's citizens.  It will never work.  It was so much better when the privileged religious whites could dictate others lifestyle.  And now I hear the blacks want equal protection under the law as well.  These last 50 years have been rough in America.  Don't tell me I didn't warn you.  Truely this is a sign of the wickedness of the last days.  Treating people equally and with respect was never a theme of Christ's teachings.

 

I think you misunderstand a lot of my motivations.  Is it wicked to have a free society where all citizens have equal rights?  No, I don't think that is wicked.  Is it wicked for society to have norms for what is and is not appropriate sexual mores or standards?  No, I don't think it is wicked.  

 

If there are sexual mores is someone being denied rights?  If we are technical about it, yes.  We as a society deems what is appropriate, what is acceptable sexual expression.  The mere fact that there are parameters means some things are not acceptable.  You seem to think that sexual mores are okay as long you personally are not affected by what society deems acceptable and what it rejects as unacceptable.  Surprise, surprise; you just happen to be like almost everyone else.  We only really reject those things we personally don't like or that don't affect us.

 

Is is acceptable for people to look to God and try to understand what God thinks is acceptable or unacceptable?  I hope it is acceptable even though the argument then becomes God really does not mean what you say he means.  It does not matter that thousands of years of precedence exists; it affects me personally and therefore it must be wrong is the refrain we hear from some today.

 

Others struggle mightily to understand how they can be created with a compulsion that conflicts so strongly with the laws of God and yet still be loved and made just the way God intended. The simple answer is that compulsions are not made directly by God.  We all have compulsions of various kinds.  Are they equal?  I don't think so; I think some are harder to bear and still remain obedient to God.  

 

You often spin that the Church wanted to "take away" your rights and yet you never had the rights you state the Church wanted to take away.  This kind of dishonest spin does not help your argument or make it more acceptable.  It just makes it look dishonest. 

[Pahoran]

You are very good at whipping up the evils of the last days and linking it to the acceptance of homosexuality in our time.  But I asked this question before and never got an answer.  Do you think that the acceptance of homosexual behavior is more prevalent now than during the time of Christ?  Did Christ think that homosexual behavior that was prevelent in His life time would bring down the rath of Satan?  What justification do you have that gay marriage will be the "wickedness" that is fulfilling the dire prophecies you site when there is no record of Christ even condemning homosexuality?  If this is the wickedness that is going to cause the end of the earth, you would think Christ would have mentioned something about it.  

 

Instead Christ talks about things like loving everyone, including your enemies.  Loving one another as I have loved you.  The gospel Christ taught is a gospel of love and inclusiveness.  When Christ defended the adulterest from those that would condemn her, somehow I think there are many in the church today that would have turned on Christ for telling them to be more concerned with their own sins than the sins of others.  What the Book of Mormon does teach is that when church members are more concerned with the sin of others then their own sins, then the end of the world will truly come.

Those campaigning for the acceptance of sexual turpitude would do well not to mention the case of the woman taken in adultery.

I don't believe sexual perversions were widespread in 1st century Israel -- and they certainly weren't accepted or "celebrated," however widespread they may have been. The notion of an "In Your Face" parade through the streets of Jerusalem is an absurd one. Rome, of course, was a sink of iniquity, but Jesus didn't preach in Rome. But note well: as soon as His followers started taking the Gospel to the Gentiles, we start to see the warnings appear. The Arsenokoitai and the Malakoi will not inherit the Kingdom. I note with amusement that homosexualists try to claim that Paul somehow abandoned the teachings of Jesus -- as if they, of all people, can claim to know more about the teachings of Jesus than Paul and his contemporaries -- but of course he did nothing of the sort. He merely applied them to a different set of circumstances than Jesus personally addressed.

Regards,

Pahoran

[The Nehor]

No,. what do think is going on in the Middle East with Isis?

The same thing that goes on all the time over there....people trying to take over the world.

[california boy]

I think you misunderstand a lot of my motivations.  Is it wicked to have a free society where all citizens have equal rights?  No, I don't think that is wicked.  Is it wicked for society to have norms for what is and is not appropriate sexual mores or standards?  No, I don't think it is wicked.  

 

If there are sexual mores is someone being denied rights?  If we are technical about it, yes.  We as a society deems what is appropriate, what is acceptable sexual expression.  The mere fact that there are parameters means some things are not acceptable.  You seem to think that sexual mores are okay as long you personally are not affected by what society deems acceptable and what it rejects as unacceptable.  Surprise, surprise; you just happen to be like almost everyone else.  We only really reject those things we personally don't like or that don't affect us.

 

Is is acceptable for people to look to God and try to understand what God thinks is acceptable or unacceptable?  I hope it is acceptable even though the argument then becomes God really does not mean what you say he means.  It does not matter that thousands of years of precedence exists; it affects me personally and therefore it must be wrong is the refrain we hear from some today.

 

Others struggle mightily to understand how they can be created with a compulsion that conflicts so strongly with the laws of God and yet still be loved and made just the way God intended. The simple answer is that compulsions are not made directly by God.  We all have compulsions of various kinds.  Are they equal?  I don't think so; I think some are harder to bear and still remain obedient to God.  

 

We live in a secular government, not a theocracy.  While there are people who believe they know the will of God, the government does not.  Both society and the government decided that the right of gays guaranteed them by the constitution outweighed religious beliefs.  Gay marriage has been decided.  Those, like you that have religious beliefs that differ from the government can completely ignore gay marriage.  The only thing the law demands is that if you own a business you treat gays just like every other customer.  Other than that, Mormons are allowed to continue to hold on to their religious beliefs.  Time to move on.

 

You often spin that the Church wanted to "take away" your rights and yet you never had the rights you state the Church wanted to take away.  This kind of dishonest spin does not help your argument or make it more acceptable.  It just makes it look dishonest. 

 

You do realize that gays had the right to marry before the church got involved in taking away that right.  It is a point I am not making up.  The federal government has now stepped in to ensured that those rights were reinstated.  Civil rights can not be voted away.  It is a basic belief in our government  that has been embedded in the constitution from the beginning of this country.  Sorry you don't like the "spin" but those are the facts.  I am not making up anything.  And the church will long be remembered for it's effort to try and take away those civil rights. 

 

 

[california boy]

Those campaigning for the acceptance of sexual turpitude would do well not to mention the case of the woman taken in adultery.

I don't believe sexual perversions were widespread in 1st century Israel -- and they certainly weren't accepted or "celebrated," however widespread they may have been. The notion of an "In Your Face" parade through the streets of Jerusalem is an absurd one. Rome, of course, was a sink of iniquity, but Jesus didn't preach in Rome. But note well: as soon as His followers started taking the Gospel to the Gentiles, we start to see the warnings appear. The Arsenokoitai and the Malakoi will not inherit the Kingdom. I note with amusement that homosexualists try to claim that Paul somehow abandoned the teachings of Jesus -- as if they, of all people, can claim to know more about the teachings of Jesus than Paul and his contemporaries -- but of course he did nothing of the sort. He merely applied them to a different set of circumstances than Jesus personally addressed.

Regards,

Pahoran

I am not sure why you are trying to rewrite history, but you do realize that Romans  governed the small little land of the Israelites.  And that government during the time of Christ certainly had no problems with homosexuality.  If anything, the Romans had a much more liberal view of homosexuality than even our government does today.  And if you are familiar at all with Roman celebrations, you would certainly know better than to pretend there was not public events that were very in your face.  The Romans could care less what the Jews thought of their morals and beliefs.  

 

You find yourself living under similar circumstance.  Your religious beliefs may very well be in conflict with what the government practices.  Sounds pretty similar to the Jews living during the time of Christ. Yet I don't remember Christ leading a crusade against the Roman government and how they treated homosexuals of His time, do  you?  Christ seemed to be preaching a gospel of worry about your own sins and not trying to force others into submission.  Your religious beliefs or Paul's beliefs on homosexuality has nothing to do with governmental law.  It didn't at the time of Christ, and it doesn't today.