rpn Posted October 14, 2014 Posted October 14, 2014 http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2002/03/1491/302445/?single_page=true Found this article interesting as it challenges many beliefs about what preceded exploration, including how many people were decimiated by disease brought by the explorers. I'm wondering what those who study BofM historicity make of the ideas therein?
ksfisher Posted October 14, 2014 Posted October 14, 2014 Charles Mann has also written a fantastic book on the same subject. http://smile.amazon.com/1491-Revelations-Americas-Before-Columbus/dp/1400032059/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1413307891&sr=1-1&keywords=1491 As well as a follow up. http://smile.amazon.com/1493-Uncovering-World-Columbus-Created/dp/0307278247/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1413307891&sr=1-3&keywords=1491
Duncan Posted October 14, 2014 Posted October 14, 2014 I know they had TB before Columbus et all came over here
katherine the great Posted October 15, 2014 Posted October 15, 2014 This is what we are going to face if Ebola gets a foot in the door here. I have to say though, whoever wrote that article is misinformed about at least a couple of things. Archaeologists ARE anthropologists, and the vast majority of anthropologists don't exclusively do field work with indigenous people.
Robert F. Smith Posted October 15, 2014 Posted October 15, 2014 http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2002/03/1491/302445/?single_page=true Found this article interesting as it challenges many beliefs about what preceded exploration, including how many people were decimiated by disease brought by the explorers. I'm wondering what those who study BofM historicity make of the ideas therein?Charles Mann presents us with his 2002 popularized version of anthropological research on population figures for North and South America, with all its ups and downs. When he finally gets to Central Mexico, and to the two great “Neolithic” revolutions in the world, that of (1) Sumer, and (2) of the Olmec, he doesn’t realize that both are directly connected and sequential – via the Jaredite bringing of writing and high culture from Mesopotamia to Mesoamerica. However, he fails to follow up on this brief mention. His comments on Amerind exploitation of the Amazon rain forest is equally applicable to the Yucatan rain forest (which he does not mention, even though it represents the highest population densities in the New World).
Bob Crockett Posted October 15, 2014 Posted October 15, 2014 Charles Mann believes that the Nez Perce had horses before Columbus. 1
katherine the great Posted October 16, 2014 Posted October 16, 2014 Charles Mann believes that the Nez Perce had horses before Columbus. He does? I'd be interested in reading that. Do you have a reference?
cinepro Posted October 16, 2014 Posted October 16, 2014 (edited) What I'd like to know is how the Americas in 1491 would have been different if the events in the Book of Mormon didn't happen. If the Jaredites, Lehites and Mulekites had never made their journeys, what would have been different when the explorers started showing up in 1492? Would there be more or fewer people? Would their clothing, language, religion, food, animals or culture be any different? How so? Edited October 16, 2014 by cinepro
Bob Crockett Posted October 16, 2014 Posted October 16, 2014 He does? I'd be interested in reading that. Do you have a reference?I'd have to hunt it down but his website makes the claim clearly. Do a Google search thru it.
Calm Posted October 16, 2014 Posted October 16, 2014 (edited) I think you need to hunt that down as I can't find it: "As for the horses, they were from Europe; except for llamas in the Andes, the Western Hemisphere had no beasts of burden." http://www.charlesmann.org/Excerpt-3.htm Google comes up with nothing about the Nez Perce on his site. Edited October 16, 2014 by calmoriah
ksfisher Posted October 16, 2014 Posted October 16, 2014 I think you need to hunt that down as I can't find it: http://www.charlesmann.org/Excerpt-3.htm Google comes up with nothing about the Nez Perce on his site. I wasn't able to come up with anything through google either.
Duncan Posted October 16, 2014 Posted October 16, 2014 (edited) Saw this show the other day and it features an axe head with some kind of something weird on it http://www.pbs.org/wnet/secrets/carthages-lost-warriors-watch-the-full-episode/1163/ These people believe the Americas had other people come here prior to Columbus Edited October 16, 2014 by Duncan
Bob Crockett Posted October 17, 2014 Posted October 17, 2014 I think you need to hunt that down as I can't find it: http://www.charlesmann.org/Excerpt-3.htm Google comes up with nothing about the Nez Perce on his site. I apologize for the bad recollection. It was the author Gavin Menzies, in his book 1421. His website has more information about it than his book. http://www.gavinmenzies.net/Evidence/14-men-and-animals-indigenous-to-one-continent-found-in-another-by-the-first-europeans/
katherine the great Posted October 17, 2014 Posted October 17, 2014 I apologize for the bad recollection.It was the author Gavin Menzies, in his book 1421.His website has more information about it than his book.http://www.gavinmenzies.net/Evidence/14-men-and-animals-indigenous-to-one-continent-found-in-another-by-the-first-europeans/ Oh. Bummer...
Robert F. Smith Posted October 17, 2014 Posted October 17, 2014 What I'd like to know is how the Americas in 1491 would have been different if the events in the Book of Mormon didn't happen. If the Jaredites, Lehites and Mulekites had never made their journeys, what would have been different when the explorers started showing up in 1492? Would there be more or fewer people? Would their clothing, language, religion, food, animals or culture be any different? How so?Good question, even if we must speculate about the trajectory of several cultures in the absence of key stimuli. Since the Mesopotamian Jaredites are the likely source of the great Olmec civilization, and since the Olmec are considered the "mother culture" of subsequent Mesoamerican cultures, the difference would be tremendous, including the probable absence of writing, math, advanced astronomy and calendrics, ziggurats, and specific types of religion, etc. Even the types of moieties and their mythic associations may have been very different, i.e., the two rival royal lineages of the Jaredites may be reflected by the Olmec Were-Jaguars (Earth), and Fire-Serpents (Lightning) moieties -- as suggested by Bruce Warren and Ben Urrutia; cf. Murial Porter Weaver, The Aztecs, Maya, and Their Predecessors, 3rd ed. (Academic Press, 1993), 50. The types of artifacts found by Stephens & Catherwood would have been vastly different, and much more primitive, perhaps more in line with the nature of Chavin, Moche, and Tiwanaku (Tiahuanaco) cultures of South America. 2
KevinG Posted October 23, 2014 Posted October 23, 2014 What I'd like to know is how the Americas in 1491 would have been different if the events in the Book of Mormon didn't happen. If the Jaredites, Lehites and Mulekites had never made their journeys, what would have been different when the explorers started showing up in 1492? Would there be more or fewer people? Would their clothing, language, religion, food, animals or culture be any different? How so?The tapirs would not have been exploited as beasts of burden. 2
KevinG Posted October 23, 2014 Posted October 23, 2014 Good question, even if we must speculate about the trajectory of several cultures in the absence of key stimuli. Since the Mesopotamian Jaredites are the likely source of the great Olmec civilization, and since the Olmec are considered the "mother culture" of subsequent Mesoamerican cultures, the difference would be tremendous, including the probable absence of writing, math, advanced astronomy and calendrics, ziggurats, and specific types of religion, etc. Even the types of moieties and their mythic associations may have been very different, i.e., the two rival royal lineages of the Jaredites may be reflected by the Olmec Were-Jaguars (Earth), and Fire-Serpents (Lightning) moieties -- as suggested by Bruce Warren and Ben Urrutia; cf. Murial Porter Weaver, The Aztecs, Maya, and Their Predecessors, 3rd ed. (Academic Press, 1993), 50. The types of artifacts found by Stephens & Catherwood would have been vastly different, and much more primitive, perhaps more in line with the nature of Chavin, Moche, and Tiwanaku (Tiahuanaco) cultures of South America. Are there some online summaries of these concepts? I loved 1491 and speculated how the Olmec and Jaredotes might be connected. This is fascinating stuff but I don't have the time to do source research myself.
Robert F. Smith Posted October 23, 2014 Posted October 23, 2014 Are there some online summaries of these concepts? I loved 1491 and speculated how the Olmec and Jaredotes might be connected. This is fascinating stuff but I don't have the time to do source research myself.Maybe the late Bruce Warren's review of Sorenson's Ancient American Setting would be helpful: https://byustudies.byu.edu/PDFViewer.aspx?title=8779&linkURL=30.3WarrenDecipheringAncient-c5221713-3d7f-4dd5-9118-5c08e7f380ae.pdf . Or the free summary of Sorenson's Mormon's Codex, online at http://www.fairmormon.org/perspectives/fair-conferences/2012-fair-conference/2012-reading-mormons-codex . 1
Robert F. Smith Posted October 23, 2014 Posted October 23, 2014 The tapirs would not have been exploited as beasts of burden.I gave you a rep point for making me laugh out loud.
KevinG Posted October 23, 2014 Posted October 23, 2014 Thank you very much! And I'm glad I could provide a chuckle in return!
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