Is Uchtdorf In Line To Be Prophet One Day?

[mormonnewb]

Someone, I believe it was Mark Beesley, once made an excellent point here on the Board: Is it nice to have our Beloved Prophet travel among the Saints and address us, and address us every General Conference, and represent the Church of Jesus Christ to the world and in the media?  Yes, it is.  But do we need a prophet to do all of those things?  No, we don't.  The only thing we need a prophet to do is to hold the keys, and whatever state of physical or mental health he might be in, regardless whether he is able to address us or to represent us before the world, he still holds the keys.

 

So the primary job of the prophet is to be alive?  He need not prophesy, see or reveal the word of the Lord, just so long as he inhales and exhales oxygen periodically?

 

I guess that technically meets our claim of having a "living prophet," but I was sold on the idea of continuing revelation.  I really don't think that HF needs a human being to be a key ring holder -- a place upon which to place HF places his keys so they don't get lost.  I thought that the "keys" were given to the President so that HE could use them or delegate their use to others.  Either task requires a modicum of physical or mental health.

 

Once again, is there any doctrinal reason that an apostle couldn't step down after a lifetime of service?

[Buckeye]

I don't see an imminent need to change the practice. Presumably if one is worthy and fit to be in the quorum, one is worthy and fit to lead the Church as president.

 

To be clear, I was not suggesting a need to change the practice/policy.  I was just saying that, for me, an annoucement that the practice/policy was changing without a revelation would not be bothersome.  For others I know, it would. 

 

FWIW, when I've seen the argument made that the practice/policy should change (for example, by granting emeritus status to the FP/Q12 the same as we do for the 70), the rationale has always been physical and mental capacity, not worthiness. 

[Buckeye]

Someone, I believe it was Mark Beesley, once made an excellent point here on the Board: Is it nice to have our Beloved Prophet travel among the Saints and address us, and address us every General Conference, and represent the Church of Jesus Christ to the world and in the media?  Yes, it is.  But do we need a prophet to do all of those things?  No, we don't.  The only thing we need a prophet to do is to hold the keys, and whatever state of physical or mental health he might be in, regardless whether he is able to address us or to represent us before the world, he still holds the keys.

 

Not to get off on an tangent, but my reading of LDS church doctrine (per the temple recommend questions) is that all of the FP/Q12 hold the keys collectively.  The president of the church is the only person authorized to exercise all the keys, but he does not alone hold them. 

[Rain]

I remember when President became president there was a lot of surprised talk when he became president and all of the increased energy/stamina he seemed to have. I've wondered if there was similar talk before then about prophets stepping down or becoming emeritus?

[JLHPROF]

Not to get off on an tangent, but my reading of LDS church doctrine (per the temple recommend questions) is that all of the FP/Q12 hold the keys collectively.  The president of the church is the only person authorized to exercise all the keys, but he does not alone hold them. 

 

Pretty much.  They all have the same office (Apostle) but only one is appointed by God to "manage" the keys if you will.

 

D&C 132:7 - they are all anointed (holding the keys/receiving all ordinances) but there is only one appointed on earth at a time.

 

7 And verily I say unto you, that the conditions of this law are these: All covenants, contracts, bonds, obligations, oaths, vows, performances, connections, associations, or expectations, that are not made and entered into and sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, of him who is anointed, both as well for time and for all eternity, and that too most holy, by revelation and commandment through the medium of mine anointed, whom I have appointed on the earth to hold this power (and I have appointed unto my servant Joseph to hold this power in the last days, and there is never but one on the earth at a time on whom this power and the keys of this priesthood are conferred), are of no efficacy, virtue, or force in and after the resurrection from the dead; for all contracts that are not made unto this end have an end when men are dead.

Edited September 18, 2014 by JLHPROF

[DBMormon]

So the primary job of the prophet is to be alive?  He need not prophesy, see or reveal the word of the Lord, just so long as he inhales and exhales oxygen periodically?

 

I guess that technically meets our claim of having a "living prophet," but I was sold on the idea of continuing revelation.  I really don't think that HF needs a human being to be a key ring holder -- a place upon which to place HF places his keys so they don't get lost.  I thought that the "keys" were given to the President so that HE could use them or delegate their use to others.  Either task requires a modicum of physical or mental health.

 

Once again, is there any doctrinal reason that an apostle couldn't step down after a lifetime of service?

There you go, analyzing everthing and thinking too deeply.  Elder Packer was right.... those darn intellectuals.

[DBMormon]

I remember when President became president there was a lot of surprised talk when he became president and all of the increased energy/stamina he seemed to have. I've wondered if there was similar talk before then about prophets stepping down or becoming emeritus?

I also remember when Elder became Elder..... he was such a good missionary!

Edited September 18, 2014 by DBMormon

[stemelbow]

APOSTLE                    DATE CALLED                APOSTLE REPLACED Born age

Thomas S Monson            10 Oct 1963         Henry D Moyle        8.21.27 87

Boyd K Packer              09 Apr 1970         David O McKay       9.10.24 91

L Tom Perry                06 Apr 1974         Harold B Lee        8.5.22 92

Russell M Nelson           12 Apr 1984         LeGrand Richards    9.9.24 91

Dallin H Oaks              03 May 1984         Mark E Peterson     8.12.32 82

M Russell Ballard          10 Oct 1985         Bruce R McConkie    10.8.28 85

Richard G Scott            06 Oct 1988         Marion G Romney     11.7.28 85

Robert D Hales             07 Apr 1994         Marvin J Ashton     8.24.32 82

Jeffrey R Holland          23 Jun 1994         Ezra Taft Benson    12.3.40 73

Henry B Eyring             06 Apr 1995         Howard W Hunter 5.31.33 81

Dieter F Uchtdorf          02 Oct 2004         Neal A Maxwell 11.6.40 73

David A Bednar             02 Oct 2004         David B Haight 6.15.52 62

Quentin L Cook             06 Oct 2007         James E Faust 9.8.40 74

D Todd Christofferso n     05 Apr 2008         Gordon B Hinckley 1.24.45 69

Neil L Andersen            04 Apr 2009         Joseph B Wirthlin 8.9.51 63

[JLHPROF]

APOSTLE                    DATE CALLED                APOSTLE REPLACED Born age

Thomas S Monson            10 Oct 1963         Henry D Moyle        8.21.27 87

Boyd K Packer              09 Apr 1970         David O McKay       9.10.24 91

L Tom Perry                06 Apr 1974         Harold B Lee        8.5.22 92

Russell M Nelson           12 Apr 1984         LeGrand Richards    9.9.24 91

Dallin H Oaks              03 May 1984         Mark E Peterson     8.12.32 82

M Russell Ballard          10 Oct 1985         Bruce R McConkie    10.8.28 85

Richard G Scott            06 Oct 1988         Marion G Romney     11.7.28 85

Robert D Hales             07 Apr 1994         Marvin J Ashton     8.24.32 82

Jeffrey R Holland          23 Jun 1994         Ezra Taft Benson    12.3.40 73

Henry B Eyring             06 Apr 1995         Howard W Hunter 5.31.33 81

Dieter F Uchtdorf          02 Oct 2004         Neal A Maxwell 11.6.40 73

David A Bednar             02 Oct 2004         David B Haight 6.15.52 62

Quentin L Cook             06 Oct 2007         James E Faust 9.8.40 74

D Todd Christofferso n     05 Apr 2008         Gordon B Hinckley 1.24.45 69

Neil L Andersen            04 Apr 2009         Joseph B Wirthlin 8.9.51 63

 

Wow, some of their ages I never would have guessed - Pres Eyring is 81?  I actually had to google that to confirm.  Pres. Uchtdorf is 73?

 

I would have placed both men in their 60's to look at them and their energy/appearance.  I mean, the senior 8 on the list all look their ages, but several of the junior members over 70 look quite a bit younger than 70.

 

We assume based on ages that the younger members have a great chance of becoming President.  But it is also conceivable that we could have a string of very short administrations (think Pres. Hunter) in a row.

 

Pres. Packer, Elder Perry and Elder Nelson are unlikely (although not impossible) to outlive Pres. Monson as they are all in their 90's already.

But after Pres. Monson (currently 87) we could see Elders Oaks, Ballard, Scott and Hales in any number of short-term, less than 2 years prehaps, configurations, before the next long-term President appears (presumably Elder Holland or Pres. Uchtdorf - both in their early 70's).

Edited September 18, 2014 by JLHPROF

[stemelbow]

Wow, some of their ages I never would have guessed - Pres Eyring is 81?  I actually had to google that to confirm.  Pres. Uchtdorf is 73?

 

I would have placed both men in their 60's to look at them and their energy/appearance.  I mean, the senior 8 on the list all look their ages, but several of the junior members over 70 look quite a bit younger than 70.

It surprised me to see L Tom Perry is the oldest for the same reason. I thought it was either Monson or Packer, wasnt' sure. They're all old. 9 of the 15 over 80 surprised me too. Over the next 10 years or so we're going to see some pretty big turnover it seems.

[Nofear]

I thought he was a prophet. and why does it matter who is actually sitting in the top seat? They all play vital roles here.

 

The Presiding High Priest [of the Church] is the only one who has the authorized use of all the priesthood keys (held by mortals) as an individual. The Quorum of the Twelve and the First Quorum of the Seventy also collectively hold all the keys and so can authorize/ordain a new Presiding High Priest by unanimous action. When a Presiding High Priest is present the Quorum of the Twelve generally act under the direction of those keys.

[Nofear]

I don't see an imminent need to change the practice. Presumably if one is worthy and fit to be in the quorum, one is worthy and fit to lead the Church as president.

 

Agreed. There is no politicking or other nonsense that often afflicts mortal organizations with this system. When the Lord wants to call a new prophet, he simply arranges for the passing of the current one. That's a crass way to put it though, as the days and times or our mortal probation are known well ahead of time, the successions of the Presidents of the Church are already known.

[omni]

Agreed. There is no politicking or other nonsense that often afflicts mortal organizations with this system. When the Lord wants to call a new prophet, he simply arranges for the passing of the current one. That's a crass way to put it though, as the days and times or our mortal probation are known well ahead of time, the successions of the Presidents of the Church are already known.

Can somebody tell me how apostles are chosen? Is there a vote, a committee discussion, or does the current president make the decision? This is of course taking into consideration that God is inspiring the decision makers who to choose.

[JLHPROF]

Can somebody tell me how apostles are chosen? Is there a vote, a committee discussion, or does the current president make the decision? This is of course taking into consideration that God is inspiring the decision makers who to choose.

 

Well it's not an official Church site but  Mormon-wiki says:

 

 

Members of the Quorum of the Twelve serve for their lifetimes, unless removed from their position for iniquity or through resignation. When there are fewer than twelve men in the quorum, it is necessary for a new apostle to be chosen.

New apostles for the Quorum of the Twelve are selected by the First Presidency, by revelation. The position is not open to lobbying or application, although several candidates may be considered. The selection is made by applying the same general principles as were followed by the ancient apostles in New Testament times, that is, the First President and the remaining members of the Twelve meet and prayerfully consider new candidates. They voice their opinions on who it should be, and the final selection can only be unanimous. (See Acts 1:15-26.)

Once a decision is reached, the individual's name is submitted to the remaining members of the Quorum of the Twelve for their approval. The individual is then interviewed by the President of the Church and a calling is issued. The name is announced in a general conference of the Church for the sustaining vote of the membership as a whole. Such vote does not constitute an election in the political sense of the word; it indicates that the calling is approved by the membership and that the membership accepts the new apostle as such.

The newly sustained individual is then ordained as an apostle by the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve, who bestow upon him the keys (authority) of the holy apostleship. These keys are the same as were given by Christ to the ancient apostles and restored to Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery in modern times by Peter, James, and John. The keys given to the new apostle include the authority to preach the gospel in all the world and to seal ordinances on earth that will be sealed eternally. (See Matthew 16:19, 28:19-20).

Apostles are special witnesses of the name of Jesus Christ in all the world; they possess a knowledge, by revelation, of the literal resurrection of Christ and a knowledge that he directs the affairs of His Church.

Since Joseph Smith's time there have been 95 men called and sustained as Apostles.

http://www.mormonwiki.com/Quorum_of_the_Twelve_Apostles

 

Not sure about the ordination always happening AFTER Conference sustaining vote.  I thought it happened before.

[Scott Lloyd]

Not to get off on an tangent, but my reading of LDS church doctrine (per the temple recommend questions) is that all of the FP/Q12 hold the keys collectively.  The president of the church is the only person authorized to exercise all the keys, but he does not alone hold them. 

This is instructive:

 

 

Although each Apostle holds all the keys of the priesthood, it is the Lord’s plan that only one man at a time exercise these keys on behalf of the Church. For this reason the senior living Apostle (by date of ordination, not by age) is ordained President of the Church by the Quorum of the Twelve and given the right to exercise all the keys of the priesthood. When he dies, the remaining Apostles ordain the next senior living Apostle (the President of the Quorum of the Twelve) to use his apostolic keys in their fulness as President of the Church.

The President of the Church, therefore, is the only man on earth who has the power to exercise all of the keys of the priesthood (see D&C 132:7). However, he delegates certain keys to the leaders who preside in the Church. These men include mission presidents, branch presidents, temple presidents, stake presidents, bishops, and Melchizedek Priesthood quorum presidents. They in turn delegate a portion of their authority (but not their keys) to men and women in their units by setting them apart to different offices and callings.

President Joseph F. Smith explained: “In their fulness, the keys are held by only one person at a time, the prophet and president of the Church. He may delegate any portion of this power to another, in which case that person holds the keys of that particular labor. Thus, the president of a temple, the president of a stake, the bishop of a ward, the president of a mission, the president of a quorum, each holds the keys of the labors performed in that particular body or locality. His Priesthood is not increased by this special appointment” (Gospel Doctrine, 136).

Some rights are given to a man automatically when he is given the Aaronic or Melchizedek Priesthood. For instance, when a man receives the Melchizedek Priesthood, he is given the authority to give father’s blessings, to give blessings of comfort, and to administer to the sick. He will hold these rights as long as he bears that priesthood. Even death cannot take this authority from him.

However, there are certain rights that one can be given that are only temporary. A branch president, for example, holds the keys of his branch only for the time he remains branch president. When he is released from that position, he no longer holds these keys.

 

[stemelbow]

8 of the 15 are born in August-September, 5 in August. 1 in Oct, 2 in Nov, and 1 in Dec. Erying, Bednar and Christofferson are all oddballs.

[Scott Lloyd]

There you go, analyzing everthing and thinking too deeply.  Elder Packer was right.... those darn intellectuals.

Should it ever become necessary to depart from current practice, it will be the Lord, not self-styled intellectuals, Who makes that determination.

[strappinglad]

Fortunately, we avoided the odd optics of having a President Haight . I recall having to be operated on by a Dr. Killum. Worrisome. Some of these posts sound like they are wanting to start a pool on who and when for a prophet. Seems untoward.

[Scott Lloyd]

It surprised me to see L Tom Perry is the oldest for the same reason.

I was in his office two days ago for a one-on-one interview.

 

As I entered and he greeted me with a robust "So what are you doing for the kingdom?" I thought, "This man still has a lot of tread left on him."

[BookofMormonLuvr]

Can somebody tell me how apostles are chosen? Is there a vote, a committee discussion, or does the current president make the decision? This is of course taking into consideration that God is inspiring the decision makers who to choose.

I will let J. Golden Kimball offer his opinion on your question...

“Some people say a person receives a position in this church through revelation, and others say they get it through inspiration, but I say they get it through relation. If I hadn't been related to Heber C. Kimball I wouldn't have been a damn thing in this church.” 

[strappinglad]

I will let J. Golden Kimball offer his opinion on your question...

“Some people say a person receives a position in this church through revelation, and others say they get it through inspiration, but I say they get it through relation. If I hadn't been related to Heber C. Kimball I wouldn't have been a damn thing in this church.” 

Good ol' J. Golden. We will not see his like again, same with Orrin Porter Rockwell. In the first 100 years of the Church his comment was quite true. The Brethren went with known qualities.

[cinepro]

Agreed. There is no politicking or other nonsense that often afflicts mortal organizations with this system. When the Lord wants to call a new prophet, he simply arranges for the passing of the current one. That's a crass way to put it though, as the days and times or our mortal probation are known well ahead of time, the successions of the Presidents of the Church are already known.

 

The reason there is no "politicking or other nonsense" is because that is the way the system has been set up. 

 

FWIW, our succession in the Presidency for the United States is set up the same way.  If the President dies, there is no "politicking or other nonsense", it just goes to the Vice President and so on down the line.  The benefit is having order and consistency (and no bickering), but there are negative trade-offs as well. 

 

The current system of LDS succession (with "no politicking or other nonsense") was not delivered by the finger of God onto granite tablets.  It was developed over decades of "discussion" among the Apostles and Prophets, with different views being offered on how it should work, exactly.  To see how the sausage was made, I recommend these two articles:

 

John Willard Young, Brigham Young, and the Development of Presidential Succession in the LDS Church

 

Notes on Apostolic Succession

[cinepro]

I remember when President became president there was a lot of surprised talk when he became president and all of the increased energy/stamina he seemed to have. I've wondered if there was similar talk before then about prophets stepping down or becoming emeritus?

 

I'm guessing....Kimball?

 

Or Woodruff?

 

Even before Taylor's death, Wilford Woodruff became involved in the succession question. Heber J. Grant raised the most often-asked query about the seniority system: "Is it possible for a younger man or one other than the senior apostle to succeed to the Presidency?" In particular Grant was advocating the possible appointment of Joseph F. Smith as Taylor's successor. To support his views, Grant argued that Woodruff had prophesied at an Ogden stake conference that Smith would become president of the Church.

To fulfill that prophecy, the Twelve would have to deviate from the usual order (Woodruff to Grant, 28 March 1887).

[Scott Lloyd]

The reason there is no "politicking or other nonsense" is because that is the way the system has been set up. 

 

FWIW, our succession in the Presidency for the United States is set up the same way.  If the President dies, there is no "politicking or other nonsense", it just goes to the Vice President and so on down the line.  The benefit is having order and consistency (and no bickering), but there are negative trade-offs as well. 

 

The current system of LDS succession (with "no politicking or other nonsense") was not delivered by the finger of God onto granite tablets.  It was developed over decades of "discussion" among the Apostles and Prophets, with different views being offered on how it should work, exactly. 

So ... does the fact that a practice came about after discussion over decades among apostles and prophets preclude the idea that the practice came about through revelation?

 

To put it another way, does revelation always have to come about in an instantaneous flash of enlightenment to qualify as revelation?

Edited September 18, 2014 by Scott Lloyd

[cinepro]

So ... does the fact that a practice came about after discussion over decades among apostles and prophets preclude the idea that the practice came about through revelation?

 

To put it another way, does revelation always have to come about in an instantaneous flash of enlightenment to qualify as revelation.

Of course not. But since we've learned the danger of ascribing policies to "revelation" when that might not be the case, I thought I would point it out nevertheless.