New Ow Discussion # 6 - Be The Change

[mfbukowski]

Nevermind.

 

I get grumpy when it's past my bedtime! 

[Scott Lloyd]

Uh, ok.

 

I don't even know what you are talking about, and since I have heard women speak every Sunday in church and at conference and don't have a clue what you are saying it is a little hard to see how I have disparaged anyone.  I did not bring up this undefinable "voice" that everyone here seems to know about but me, but yet I have disparaged women because of it.

No, you certainly haven't disparaged women.

 

What you did do is say that if this sort of thing does exist it's "gotta be a Utah thing," seeming to imply that conditions in the Church that are weird, quirky, annoying typically have their origins in Utah.

 

Or that's how it came across, at least. If that's not what you meant to say, then fine, we're good.

[Scott Lloyd]

Nevermind.

 

I get grumpy when it's past my bedtime! 

I've already put it in the past.

 

And I'm a bit sleep-deprived as well.

[Calm]

Have some chocolate and go to bed.

My husband had what I call his storytelling voice. He uses it when conveying new ideas when teaching, usually through telling a story. Voice is slight higher pitched and depending on the class and subject, how well they know him and laugh at his jokes he can get very folksies in his tone...and if he starts telling one of his Russian examples. "abandon hope....". For his class it is great, they seem to love it. Never heard a complaint and lots of compliments, but I can't stand it because that is a different relationship being expressed through that voice and it isn't one I want.

There are a number of voices I like and don't like, I like accents be ause I have a bad ear and it takes work to understand so I listen closer. Haven't made up my mind about what I feel about a soft voice. I think it depends on the individual.

[Scott Lloyd]

Have some chocolate and go to bed.

 

Great idea. Some might think the caffeine in the chocolate is not conducive to falling asleep, but it never stopped me.

[Tacenda]

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/08/03/mormon-reformers-behind-the-zion-curtain-refuse-to-be-silenced-by-the-church.html

 

I thought this was interesting, they even talk about the Sunstone Symposium and the panel of speakers from different faiths speaking on church discipline.

 

MF, here is a sample of what people are saying about the Primary voice, or soft spoken.  And the other voice that I wasn't comfortable, maybe it's just that they are a little on the hyper side or drink a lot of coffee, etc.  It could be that a lot of our leaders are more calm and not jittery or something.  It's really hard to explain.  I'll post a couple of videos.  Trying to find the woman pastor at the Presbyterian church that spoke at the symposium.  I only heard a couple because I came in late. 

 

First one, the so called "Primary" voice:

 

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2014/04/protection-from-pornography-a-christ-focused-home?lang=eng#watch=video

 

Second one:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szBn9f4Iy2o

[mfbukowski]

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/08/03/mormon-reformers-behind-the-zion-curtain-refuse-to-be-silenced-by-the-church.html

 

I thought this was interesting, they even talk about the Sunstone Symposium and the panel of speakers from different faiths speaking on church discipline.

 

MF, here is a sample of what people are saying about the Primary voice, or soft spoken.  And the other voice that I wasn't comfortable, maybe it's just that they are a little on the hyper side or drink a lot of coffee, etc.  It could be that a lot of our leaders are more calm and not jittery or something.  It's really hard to explain.  I'll post a couple of videos.  Trying to find the woman pastor at the Presbyterian church that spoke at the symposium.  I only heard a couple because I came in late. 

 

First one, the so called "Primary" voice:

 

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2014/04/protection-from-pornography-a-christ-focused-home?lang=eng#watch=video

 

Second one:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szBn9f4Iy2o

Well thanks for the effort, but I didn't hear it.  I just heard women speaking the way women speak.

 

I find it ironic that the OW folks want to hear more talks by women, but when they get them, they disparage the speakers for speaking with a "primary voice"

 

What is it exactly that these people want??  It seems that women themselves cannot agree on any of these issues.  It is as if they are competing with each other instead of being a unified team.

 

I suppose that is a stereotype but I wonder where that one came from? 

[smac97]

Have some chocolate and go to bed.

My husband had what I call his storytelling voice. He uses it when conveying new ideas when teaching, usually through telling a story. Voice is slight higher pitched and depending on the class and subject, how well they know him and laugh at his jokes he can get very folksies in his tone...and if he starts telling one of his Russian examples. "abandon hope....". For his class it is great, they seem to love it. Never heard a complaint and lots of compliments, but I can't stand it because that is a different relationship being expressed through that voice and it isn't one I want.

There are a number of voices I like and don't like, I like accents be ause I have a bad ear and it takes work to understand so I listen closer. Haven't made up my mind about what I feel about a soft voice. I think it depends on the individual.

I think the most stark contrast in "tone" among the Apostles is between Dallin H. Oaks and Richard G. Scott. Elder Oaks is a former attorney, law professor, president of BYU, and justice on the Utah Supreme Court. As a general rule, his tone reflects his background and personality. To me he comes across as thoughtful, bold, and incisive, though he also softens the sharp edges of his rhetoric.

Elder Scott had a career in nuclear engineering prior to being called as a General Authority. His tone is marked as being sensitive, compassionate, emotional, and often focused on repentance and forgiveness.

I love and respect both of these men. I think the Lord uses both of them well.

Thanks,

-Smac

[Scott Lloyd]

Well thanks for the effort, but I didn't hear it.  I just heard women speaking the way women speak.

 

I find it ironic that the OW folks want to hear more talks by women, but when they get them, they disparage the speakers for speaking with a "primary voice"

 

What is it exactly that these people want??  It seems that women themselves cannot agree on any of these issues.  It is as if they are competing with each other instead of being a unified team.

I think it's not about gender so much as ideology. That is to say, a woman cannot be seen as a teammate unless she has a certain ideological bent.

 

That's pretty much how it was in the late '60s and early '70s when radical feminism came to the fore.

[cinepro]

Well thanks for the effort, but I didn't hear it.  I just heard women speaking the way women speak.

 

I find it ironic that the OW folks want to hear more talks by women, but when they get them, they disparage the speakers for speaking with a "primary voice"

That's not "the way women speak" (although my wife suggested it might be a Utah thing...?) Women speak all the time in Sacrament meeting, and I've never heard anything like this in a local meeting.

You might not be able to hear it, but try taking my earlier challenge. Listen to a few lines from the talk, and then pause it and try to say those exact same lines using the same tone and cadence as the speaker. You will have to make an unnatural contortion to your regular speaking voice, and for me, it sounds as if I'm trying to talk to a baby.

This isn't something the OW women have made up. It was noticed long before they came on the scene. I don't even see it as a "women's issue", other than the fact that it appears to be mostly women who do it. If Apostles and Seventies were regularly getting up and speaking in the same manner, it would be just as annoying.

[mfbukowski]

That's not "the way women speak" (although my wife suggested it might be a Utah thing...?) Women speak all the time in Sacrament meeting, and I've never heard anything like this in a local meeting.

You might not be able to hear it, but try taking my earlier challenge. Listen to a few lines from the talk, and then pause it and try to say those exact same lines using the same tone and cadence as the speaker. You will have to make an unnatural contortion to your regular speaking voice, and for me, it sounds as if I'm trying to talk to a baby.

This isn't something the OW women have made up. It was noticed long before they came on the scene. I don't even see it as a "women's issue", other than the fact that it appears to be mostly women who do it. If Apostles and Seventies were regularly getting up and speaking in the same manner, it would be just as annoying.

Well my initial post mentioned it was a "Utah thing" so maybe I am mistaking it for a Utah accent- which I suppose Utahns are not even aware exists.

 

It will be a spay-shul play-zure to re- listen.

 

Low-werd for Lord

pitcher for picture

teet-chure for teacher

 

Slow, musical cadence.

 

lots of glottal stops 

 

Nah- I think it is an accent?

 

I don't hear women speak that way in So Cal either.

Edited August 4, 2014 by mfbukowski

[sethpayne]

Well my initial post mentioned it was a "Utah thing" so maybe I am mistaking it for a Utah accent- which I suppose Utahns are not even aware exists.

 

It will be a spay-shul play-zure to re- listen.

 

I've noticed a rural Utah accent but haven't noticed it in the more populous areas around SLC, Ogden, and Provo.

 

Now.... you head down to Santaquin or Nephi?  I certainly hear it there but even there it is becoming less common as more folks are moving outside the city centers.

[mfbukowski]

I've noticed a rural Utah accent but haven't noticed it in the more populous areas around SLC, Ogden, and Provo.

 

Now.... you head down to Santaquin or Nephi?  I certainly hear it there but even there it is becoming less common as more folks are moving outside the city centers.

Well to me this is a pretty pronounced accent- but hey I am a New Yorker at heart and we all know how those provincials are west of the Hudson. 

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1998/04/teaching-our-children-to-love-the-scriptures?lang=eng#d

[why me]

I think it's not about gender so much as ideology. That is to say, a woman cannot be seen as a teammate unless she has a certain ideological bent.

 

That's pretty much how it was in the late '60s and early '70s when radical feminism came to the fore.

Interestingly, radical feminsim is on the decline. However, Kate and her OW movement didn't get the memo. To pit women against men and women against women no longer works to further the cause. Most women feminists these days try to engage in dialogue with a broad range of feminisms. But the notion of just attacking patriarchy is somewhat out of fashion. Unforfunately, calling certain women talks primary voiced is one way to disparage women who may not agree with the OW viewpoint. What they would like to see are women who speak with a confrontational voice, charged with the antipatriarchical stance that is more or less black and white in tone.

[Scott Lloyd]

Well my initial post mentioned it was a "Utah thing" so maybe I am mistaking it for a Utah accent- which I suppose Utahns are not even aware exists.

 

It will be a spay-shul play-zure to re- listen.

 

Low-werd for Lord

pitcher for picture

teet-chure for teacher

 

Slow, musical cadence.

 

lots of glottal stops 

Nah- I think it is an accent?

 

I don't hear women speak that way in So Cal either.

Well, Linda S. Reeves, the speaker in Tacenda's first example of the so-called "Primary voice" (and I'm with you; I don't hear anything out-of-the-ordinary in those examples) is not a native Utahn. According to her entry in Wikipedia, she was born in Los Angeles and raised Pasadena.

 

So much for blaming the "Primary voice" on Utah.

Edited August 4, 2014 by Scott Lloyd

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Well my initial post mentioned it was a "Utah thing" so maybe I am mistaking it for a Utah accent- which I suppose Utahns are not even aware exists.

 

It will be a spay-shul play-zure to re- listen.

 

Low-werd for Lord

pitcher for picture

teet-chure for teacher

 

Slow, musical cadence.

 

lots of glottal stops 

 

Nah- I think it is an accent?

 

I don't hear women speak that way in So Cal either.

Sounds like a "Hooper" accent. Utah for the most part does not have an accent and it had been said that parts of Utah and Idaho have the purest form of "American English".

 

 

Evingston for Evanston.

[why me]

 

I find it ironic that the OW folks want to hear more talks by women, but when they get them, they disparage the speakers for speaking with a "primary voice"

 

And this shows their true intent when it comes to change in the church. Unfortunately the OW movement seems not to respect the more traditional mormon women who love the church,  believes in a less radical alternatives for women in the church, and support the GAs. The whole idea of disparaging these lds women by saying that they have a primary voice is a way to show total disrespect to women who may believe in a different path from the OW movement.

[carbon dioxide]

By that logic, OW is also only asking for the presentation to be changed.

Ok but some things that can't be changed. OW can't ask that the fall account having Eve partaking of the fruit first and the things that go along with that can be changed.  

[Scott Lloyd]

Interestingly, radical feminsim is on the decline. However, Kate and her OW movement didn't get the memo. To pit women against men and women against women no longer works to further the cause. Most women feminists these days try to engage in dialogue with a broad range of feminisms. But the notion of just attacking patriarchy is somewhat out of fashion. Unforfunately, calling certain women talks primary voiced is one way to disparage women who may not agree with the OW viewpoint. What they would like to see are women who speak with a confrontational voice, charged with the antipatriarchical stance that is more or less black and white in tone.

Agreed.

 

And ideological fanaticism can certainly make one oversensitive and hypercritical about trifles, such as a person's manner of delivery in public speaking. I definitely believe that's what we're seeing here with this fussing about the "Primary voice."

 

And you're right: They are shooting themselves in the foot with such divisive carping. Which is OK with me; the sooner the movement self-destructs, the better.

[mfbukowski]

Well, Linda S. Reeves, the speaker in Tacenda's first example of the so-called "Primary voice" (and I'm with you; I don't hear anything out-of-the-ordinary in those examples) is not a native Utahn. According to her entry in Wikipedia, she was born in Los Angeles and raised Pasadena.

 

So much for blaming the "Primary voice" on Utah.

Curses foiled again! 

 

But I think "Low-erd" for "Lord" is a dead Utah give away as well as "spay-shul" and "pray-shus".

[why me]

Well, Linda S. Reeves, the speaker in Tacenda's first example of the so-called "Primary voice" (and I'm with you; I don't hear anything out-of-the-ordinary in those examples) is not a native Utahn. According to her entry in Wikipedia, she was born in Los Angeles and raised Pasadena.

 

So much for blaming the "Primary voice" on Utah.

Here is a definition of primary voice:

 

a woman who is active in the lds church and who refuses to see their own oppression in the lds chruch. A woman who has been influenced within a patriarchal system that has prevented the woman from achieving self liberation and self realization within the church body.

 

A woman who speaks with a soft nonconfrontational tone and lacks the necessary intelligence to speak as a liberated adult woman.

Edited August 4, 2014 by why me

[mfbukowski]

And this shows their true intent when it comes to change in the church. Unfortunately the OW movement seems not to respect the more traditional mormon women who love the church,  believes in a less radical alternatives for women in the church, and support the GAs. The whole idea of disparaging these lds women by saying that they have a primary voice is a way to show total disrespect to women who may believe in a different path from the OW movement.

Totally agree.

[mfbukowski]

Sounds like a "Hooper" accent. Utah for the most part does not have an accent and it had been said that parts of Utah and Idaho have the purest form of "American English".

 

 

Evingston for Evanston.

Gonna be a little hard supporting the idea of the "purest form" of any language.  Good luck on that one. 

 

LA speaks media speak so we win anyway- our accent is the one everyone hears the most.   So we are cooler than you!! 

[Scott Lloyd]

Curses foiled again! 

 

But I think "Low-erd" for "Lord" is a dead Utah give away as well as "spay-shul" and "pray-shus".

As one who lives among, works with and worships with Utah Mormons constantly, I say this strikes me as caricature.

 

And I'm not sure that's what the complainers have in mind with "Primary voice."

Edited August 4, 2014 by Scott Lloyd

[mfbukowski]

As one who lives among, works with and worships with Utah Mormons constantly, I say this strikes me as caricature.

Perhaps then you can't hear it.

 

Listen to that video link I posted with that wonderful sister speaking about primary.

 

Are you denying there IS a Utah accent?

 

I have said I think the "primary voice" is bunk- I am talking about a Utah accent.

Edited August 4, 2014 by mfbukowski