ERayR Posted July 30, 2014 Posted July 30, 2014 I'm watching Rachel Maddow and she's interviewing a woman minister (?) of a church that is pro choice. Apparently an anti abortion Christian group barged in and told the congregation during worship, that their beliefs were wrong, along with their God. I don't know why but a light bulb went off, we need to mind our own business and let people believe how/want they want, as long as it's not hurting anyone. I see now that anti Mormons are totally off base, I guess even Sandra Tanner. The kind of actions you described are way off base. However I think we need to be involved with missionary work provided it is voluntary. I thoroughly respect someones right to believe hoe the please but I am more than willing to share what I have as long as they want to hear it.
boblloyd91 Posted July 31, 2014 Posted July 31, 2014 I'm watching Rachel Maddow and she's interviewing a woman minister (?) of a church that is pro choice. Apparently an anti abortion Christian group barged in and told the congregation during worship, that their beliefs were wrong, along with their God. I don't know why but a light bulb went off, we need to mind our own business and let people believe how/want they want, as long as it's not hurting anyone. I see now that anti Mormons sare totally off base, I guess even Sandra Tanner. That was Flip Benham's group, his sons had their tv show cancelled by hgtv because of their views, which are closely aligned with their father's. My opinion is that even though truth is not negotiable, how one goes about presenting it does matter. When the sons of thunder wanted Christ to rain down fire on an unbelieving city, they were rebuked. I believe people have to feel love from the person they are interacting with. Relating this to Sandra Tanner, and other anti Mormons, I don't feel this too much. They rarely have a willingness to show respect to our spiritual experiences or consider what we think and feel. If I were to be Evangelical, it would be because of people like Craig Blomberg or Richard Mouw, not Tanner, McCraney, or Decker.
Robert F. Smith Posted July 31, 2014 Posted July 31, 2014 That was Flip Benham's group, his sons had their tv show cancelled by hgtv because of their views, which are closely aligned with their father's. My opinion is that even though truth is not negotiable, how one goes about presenting it does matter. When the sons of thunder wanted Christ to rain down fire on an unbelieving city, they were rebuked. I believe people have to feel love from the person they are interacting with. Relating this to Sandra Tanner, and other anti Mormons, I don't feel this too much. They rarely have a willingness to show respect to our spiritual experiences or consider what we think and feel. If I were to be Evangelical, it would be because of people like Craig Blomberg or Richard Mouw, not Tanner, McCraney, or Decker.I agree with your basic sentiments.However, I have never had a cross word with Sandra Tanner, and have got on well with plenty of anti-Mormons. With some I have not. Mutual respect is important. We must also know something about our enemies (frenemies?). We must understand them. Had I been at one of Jerald Tanner's meetings in the beginning, I would have frankly agreed with him that it was a shame that there was racism among Mormons in SLC, but would have suggested better ways of going about opposing it. He tended to blame the LDS Church for what was really a nationwide sociological factor which needed to be (and eventually was) overcome. One must also reflect that the Tanners openly condemned Ed Decker, and eventually D. J. Nelson. They felt that lying and cheating was unacceptable. They quietly brought Wes Walters to heel when he cheated by surreptitiously recording an interview with Apostle LeGrand Richards. It is very easy to call into question someone's personal integrity, without knowing the whole story. 1
Robert F. Smith Posted July 31, 2014 Posted July 31, 2014 (edited) I am not great at posting. It is mentioned in FAIR article about 1826, Larry Porter reported being in Palmyra around the time it happened and effected his ability to do research in Palmyra. This is not a careless remark about Wes Walters. I am trying to show charity and I enjoy most of your comments, but I heard some horrible things from the Tanners sitting in that Baptist Church and they used Wesley Walters as one of their sources during the talk. I didn't enjoy seeing garments displayed in public. Compared to the venom I listened to, I am so temperate in talking about them. It is nice to hear about another side of all these people. I would love to hear some faith promoting stories from KK and JD.Larry Porter is certainly one of the nicest men I have ever met. Ready for the City of Enoch now!! You are talking here about an event which took place elsewhere than Palmyra. It is a story about Wes Walters and his friend Fred Poffarl searching records kept in an old, moldy cell of a county jail, where he found a bill of costs for the 1826 Bainbridge trial of Joseph Smith. Instead of directly turning it over to the County Historical Society (which he should have), Wes took it directly to Yale University in New Haven, CT, to have it conserved by experts and to make copies. He suspected that otherwise the record might disappear. I won't speak to his paranoia, but some people get apoplectic about the matter accusing him of grand theft and forgery. Neither accusation is true, although it does give all researchers a bad name and makes such work more difficult. Edited July 31, 2014 by Robert F. Smith
Robert F. Smith Posted July 31, 2014 Posted July 31, 2014 I am curious as to how you reconcile this to the fact that active Mormons make up less than 0.1% of the world population. What keeps almost all people from seeing the logic, reason, and beauty of LDS theology that answers nearly all of life's questions in a way to make everything else pale in comparison? I ask this in all sincerity.One might ask the same question about the Blessing upon Abraham that all nations of the Earth would be blessed by his seed. How can that be in view of the minuscule number of Jews upon the planet? Most people live in India & China, where few have so far heard anything about either Mormons or Jews. Should we wait a little while longer and see what happens, and will a small bit of leaven affect the whole loaf?
Robert F. Smith Posted July 31, 2014 Posted July 31, 2014 .................................................... I taught my kids about the Church and tried to be well-rounded with them. The oldest two are having their struggles at least partly or perhaps predominantly from JD and KK. I am of the opinion that they were both in a situation where they could have said things differently or chosen to take different stands that would have helped my children. Why couldn`t they just been a tad more faithful? I don`t hear much new in MS podcasts. Why do I still remain faithful despite what seems to drive all of these people away?All is not lost, as the following non-Mormon article makes clear: William McKenzie, "The God Gene: The family that prays together . . . well, you know the rest," The Weekly Standard, 19/44 (August 4, 2014), online at http://www.weeklystandard.com/author/william-mckenzie .Turns out that Mormonism is extraordinarily stable, and way ahead of other groups in transmitting the faith from one generation to the next. 1
Helen47 Posted July 31, 2014 Posted July 31, 2014 Trouble is Robert you cannot seemto keep your members, there is always a huge difference between the numbers you say you have and the local census records. That has happened in Australia and I note from cumorah.com it happens in a lot of other countries.. Most Mormons here are friendly until you reject or show no interest in the missionaries who these members usually send around. Why can't u guys accept many people are not interested.ay have their own church or just have other interests. And believe it or not many are good people who volunteer, subscribe to charities and turn up in droves after a major flood (eg 1974).
Robert F. Smith Posted July 31, 2014 Posted July 31, 2014 Trouble is Robert you cannot seemto keep your members, there is always a huge difference between the numbers you say you have and the local census records. That has happened in Australia and I note from cumorah.com it happens in a lot of other countries.. Most Mormons here are friendly until you reject or show no interest in the missionaries who these members usually send around. Why can't u guys accept many people are not interested.ay have their own church or just have other interests. And believe it or not many are good people who volunteer, subscribe to charities and turn up in droves after a major flood (eg 1974).Trouble is, Helen, the facts don't support the dire straits which you report: http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/63976-mormons-highest-in-transmittal-of-faith/ . Indeed, in matters of charitable giving and in responding to international calamities, the Mormons give much more proportionately than other groups, and do not make it a matter of proselyting. This applies also to humanitarian missionaries, who are specifically told not to proselyte. As for regular missionaries throughout the world, they do not waste their time on those who are not interested, but seek only those who are truly interested. Common sense. 4
Helen47 Posted August 1, 2014 Posted August 1, 2014 BTW did you read Dan Vogel's letter to Dialogue regardig the evidence of a revival in Palmyra. Dialogue Vol 41 No.4?
Robert F. Smith Posted August 2, 2014 Posted August 2, 2014 BTW did you read Dan Vogel's letter to Dialogue regardig the evidence of a revival in Palmyra. Dialogue Vol 41 No.4? Thank you for calling it to my attention, Helen.I know Dan and have had a number of discussions with him in person and online. He is a very nice guy, but has a very naive view of historiography -- which is surprising in light of his degree in history from CalState Univ., Long Beach. How interesting to read his letter attacking Quinn and defending Wes Walters. I have always tut-tutted Dan for his belief that all accounts of events must be fully coherent and complete with each retelling, and that this is the way people actually recall and retell events in their lives. That is utterly silly, and Mother Smith, for example, couldn't even recall the correct year in which her son Alvin was born. Without modern documentation and care, all of us would be in the same boat with the colonials and early Americans. Providing exact accounts of events is rarely to be expected. Indeed, telescoping and combining of events is entirely normal. Police detectives in particular realize just how imprecise and undependable human memory can be, and always take that into account during their investigations. The reason why Dan prefers the 1824 date is precisely because he knows this. Unfortunately, he only knows it selectively, when it suits his a priori purpose. Reliance on original sources is thus all the more important, including use of dictionaries which provide access to the actual language of the period (the 1828 Websters, and the OED). 1
Pahoran Posted August 4, 2014 Posted August 4, 2014 I have always tut-tutted Dan for his belief that all accounts of events must be fully coherent and complete with each retelling, and that this is the way people actually recall and retell events in their lives. That is utterly silly, and Mother Smith, for example, couldn't even recall the correct year in which her son Alvin was born. And if Alvin's existence was in any way helpful to LDS truth claims, you can bet someone somewhere would be declaring that Mother Smith's memory lapse somehow "proves" that Alvin never existed. Regards, Pahoran
VideoGameJunkie Posted August 4, 2014 Posted August 4, 2014 Who is Sandra Tanner and is it good that I've never heard of her?
Robert F. Smith Posted August 4, 2014 Posted August 4, 2014 Who is Sandra Tanner and is it good that I've never heard of her?You can discuss that with her in the Telestial Kingdom, unless she chooses another, better path on the other side.
VideoGameJunkie Posted August 4, 2014 Posted August 4, 2014 Robert, are you implying I'm going to the Telestial Kingdom? Ruh roh.
Robert F. Smith Posted August 4, 2014 Posted August 4, 2014 Robert, are you implying I'm going to the Telestial Kingdom? Ruh roh. You do understand that those from higher realms can visit the lower ones?
Stargazer Posted August 4, 2014 Posted August 4, 2014 I agree with your basic sentiments.However, I have never had a cross word with Sandra Tanner, and have got on well with plenty of anti-Mormons. With some I have not. Mutual respect is important. We must also know something about our enemies (frenemies?). We must understand them. Had I been at one of Jerald Tanner's meetings in the beginning, I would have frankly agreed with him that it was a shame that there was racism among Mormons in SLC, but would have suggested better ways of going about opposing it. He tended to blame the LDS Church for what was really a nationwide sociological factor which needed to be (and eventually was) overcome. One must also reflect that the Tanners openly condemned Ed Decker, and eventually D. J. Nelson. They felt that lying and cheating was unacceptable. They quietly brought Wes Walters to heel when he cheated by surreptitiously recording an interview with Apostle LeGrand Richards. It is very easy to call into question someone's personal integrity, without knowing the whole story. Who is this D J Nelson. Is this Dee J Nelson? I had a missionary companion named Dee Nelson (1974). Could this be the same person?
Calm Posted August 4, 2014 Posted August 4, 2014 Everything you don't want to know about Nelson:http://www.fairmormon.org/perspectives/publications/they-lie-in-wait-to-deceive/vol1
Okrahomer Posted August 4, 2014 Posted August 4, 2014 Who is this D J Nelson. Is this Dee J Nelson? I had a missionary companion named Dee Nelson (1974). Could this be the same person?I doubt it was your missionary companion. I'm guessing this Dee Jay Nelson was already very busy making money lecturing on the anti-Mormon circuit when you were on your mission: http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/DJN.shtmlhttp://www.fairmormon.org/perspectives/publications/they-lie-in-wait-to-deceive/vol1
Okrahomer Posted August 4, 2014 Posted August 4, 2014 Everything you don't want to know about Nelson:http://www.fairmormon.org/perspectives/publications/they-lie-in-wait-to-deceive/vol1Oops! Sorry, Calmoriah!
Stargazer Posted August 4, 2014 Posted August 4, 2014 I doubt it was your missionary companion. I'm guessing this Dee Jay Nelson was already very busy making money lecturing on the anti-Mormon circuit when you were on your mission:http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/DJN.shtmlhttp://www.fairmormon.org/perspectives/publications/they-lie-in-wait-to-deceive/vol1 Ah, ha. No, it couldn't be him after all. My companion had a full-ride scholarship at Scripps Institute of Oceanography waiting for him when he completed his mission. The anti-Mormon Nelson was clearly nowhere near the same league.
Tacenda Posted August 22, 2014 Posted August 22, 2014 I'm sorry to revive this thread, but this is a fascinating Mormon Stories interview with Brent Metcalf about the Mark Hoffman case. Which is close to my heart, since my best friend in childhood's uncle was Mr. Mac, therefore Steve was her cousin. Or I should say, Mac Christensen Steve's dad. There's great insight into the great man Steve was and his dad! http://mormonstories.org/brent-metcalfe-mark-hofmann-salamander-letter-bombings/ PS: Maybe our good friend "readstoomuch" will think this interview takes people down the road to unbelief also. I don't know. But what needs to be said is if a religion can't be open about it's dealings on earth it shouldn't be one.
USU78 Posted August 22, 2014 Posted August 22, 2014 I'm sorry to revive this thread, but this is a fascinating Mormon Stories interview with Brent Metcalf about the Mark Hoffman case. Which is close to my heart, since my best friend in childhood's uncle was Mr. Mac, therefore Steve was her cousin. Or I should say, Mac Christensen Steve's dad. There's great insight into the great man Steve was and his dad! http://mormonstories.org/brent-metcalfe-mark-hofmann-salamander-letter-bombings/ PS: Maybe our good friend "readstoomuch" will think this interview takes people down the road to unbelief also. I don't know. But what needs to be said is if a religion can't be open about it's dealings on earth it shouldn't be one. 2-3 years ago I attended a business meet/greet in downtown SLC where Mac was the speaker. He addressed that awful time. "How do you forgive something like that?" was his theme, and he discussed how he had to lead out in letting it go in order to save his family from bitterness and hate. Very moving. I'll never forget it. 1
Tacenda Posted August 22, 2014 Posted August 22, 2014 I saw that the former wife of Mark Hoffman spoke at the below mentioned Sunstone Symposium. Along with Sheets and Metcalf. I'm going to see about getting the audio for the presentation. I guess there are more podcasts to come on the Mormon Stories interview with Metcalf. Were any of you around for the symposium? It looks like a lot of former LDS and former ex'd were there. For instance, Maxine Hanks. My how times change. OPEN FORUM, OPEN HEARTS The 2005 Salt Lake Sunstone ... http://www.deseretnews.com/article/600149792/Killers-ex-wife-talks-of-survival.html?pg=all
readstoomuch Posted August 23, 2014 Author Posted August 23, 2014 For some reason Metcalf doesn't seem to be in the same ballpark in the damage attempted at the Church to me. I have come across some podcasts that John did that helped me. I just wish he and MS didn't seem to lead people out of the Church. It seems to be the goal-to me.
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