Sandra Tanner Is A Member Of Mormonstories

[name]

Thank you, but unfortunately despite quite a bit of love and understanding, my kids are pretty much out of the Church from MS and OW. That is my reality and I guarantee it is not made up.

May the "quite a bit of love and understanding" continue to be given from you to your kids - as well as from your kids to you!

Perhaps the best way to end (or at least diminish) turmoil.

[readstoomuch]

Agreed. It is what we feel led to do when we pray.

[why me]

Hi why me!

Is this a personal opinion?

I have been with mormonstories since it began. John started out as a questioner and his early podcasts reflect that questioning. In fact, if one sees the progression of his podcasts, one can see him questioning himself out of the church. He has flipped flopped quite a bit but when he began his mormonstories chapters and conferences, I believe that many members were affected by them and left. Then he returned to the fold only to leave again and it seems that he is back to his old ways when he began the chapters and conferences. I will speculate and say that those who have been around since john began his podcasts are not that affected by him but those who are just discovering him now are.

 

If anyone should be disciplined it is him and if he isn't, more members will leave the church because it will be seen to be unfair and the comparing of his treatment with the treatment of Kate will show up all over the blogs and discussion boards.

[Pahoran]

Hi Pahoran

I'll bet you a dozen doughnuts that her Mormon story is quite "meaningful" to her. (People who prefer to describe and/or label her mormon story as "anti-Mormon proselytizing" does not, in any way, diminish her Mormon story. It is hers and that is where the meaning/value rests.

I call it "anti-Mormon proselytizing" for two reasons: (1) that's what it is, and (2) I'm not a liar.

For me, the expression "Mormon story" implies anyone who has had the personal experience of being a Mormon (Past or present). Whether someone is still a Mormon today is not a requirement to have a Mormon story.

IOW, it's a very low bar.

She most certainly does!

You may not like it, or want to hear it, but she surely does!

No. She most certainly does not.

She has an exit narrative to tell. That's not a "Mormon story" in any meaningful way.

Sorry.

Or, those who think she does, understand that Mormons come in many different flavors (Ex, TBM, NOM, Etc) and they author many different stories. Each, providing an individual perspective.

If "Ex" is a "flavor" of "Mormons," then Salmonella is a "flavor" of chicken.

Ex-Mormons are not Mormons. An "ex" is a has-been.

(Incidentally, there's nothing at all new about so-called "New Order Mormons," or NOM's. IIRC, that particular bit of duplicity was coined by the king of obfuscation himself, Mister John Dehlin. "New Order Mormons" are nothing but old order jack Mormons.)

Ms Tanner's exit narrative is not an "individual perspective." It is anti-Mormon proselytizing and nothing else.

Regards,

Pahoran

[name]

Hey again, Pahoran

(Sorry that my replies below are going to only have your parts of our exchange in it. I am not sure how to use the quote feature any other way - so my responses may be a tad confusing.)

 

I call it "anti-Mormon proselytizing" for two reasons:

You can call it anything you like, that doesn't change the reality that it's clearly a Mormon story!

 

(1) that's what it is, and (2) I'm not a liar.

I'll give you #2.

 

No. She most certainly does not.

Yes. She most certainly does.

 

She has an exit narrative to tell. That's not a "Mormon story" in any meaningful way.

No. Part of her Mormon story consists of an exit. Whether it's meaningful is largely dependent upon who it is that is reading her Mormon story.

 

If "Ex" is a "flavor" of "Mormons," then Salmonella is a "flavor" of chicken.

Ex-Mormons are not Mormons. An "ex" is a has-been.

Do you think ex-convicts have a convict story?

How about Steve Young - does he have a BYU story? How about a NFL story?

Arnold Palmer? Does he have anything to say (a story) about the PGA?

 

Ms Tanner's exit narrative is not an "individual perspective."

Not only is her exit narrative absolutely an individual perspective, but it is also clearly a part of her Mormon story.

Edited July 14, 2014 by name

[Pahoran]

Hey again, Pahoran

(Sorry that my replies below are going to only have your parts of our exchange in it. I am not sure how to use the quote feature any other way - so my responses may be a tad confusing.)

 

You can call it anything you like, that doesn't change the reality that it's clearly a Mormon story!

Only if your standard for what constitutes a "Mormon story" is vanishingly low.

(I might have mentioned that already.)

 

I'll give you #2.

 

Yes. She most certainly does.

 

No. Part of her Mormon story consists of an exit. Whether it's meaningful is largely dependent upon who it is that is reading her Mormon story.

Sorry to disagree with you, but Ms Tanner is a professional anti-Mormon propagandist. Whatever she chooses to say (or not say) about her failure to live the Gospel, it is at all times driven by her agenda.

 

Do you think ex-convicts have a convict story?

How about Steve Young - does he have a BYU story? How about a NFL story?

Arnold Palmer? Does he have anything to say (a story) about the PGA?

 

Not only is her exit narrative absolutely an individual perspective, but it is also clearly a part of her Mormon story.

Her exit narrative is entirely agenda-driven, and those who call it a "Mormon story" are admitting that Mister Dehlin's "Mormon Stories" project is an anti-Mormon propaganda mill.

Regards,

Pahoran

[name]

Only if your standard for what constitutes a "Mormon story" is vanishingly low.

(I might have mentioned that already.)

Or, if your standard for what constitutes a "Mormon story" is a "story" from someone who has had the personal experience of being a "Mormon."

(I, too, might have mentioned that already)

 

Sorry to disagree with you, but Ms Tanner is a professional anti-Mormon propagandist.

She might be, I don't know.

She might also be a Girl Scout supporter, I don't know that either.

What I do know, is that whether these other things are true or not, none of them erase the fact that she was a Mormon - and as such - she clearly has a story - a Mormon story!

Whatever she chooses to say (or not say) about her failure to live the Gospel, it is at all times driven by her agenda.

Did someone mention something about someone having an agenda?

 

Her exit narrative is entirely agenda-driven,

Whether it is entirely agenda driven or not has nothing to do with it being hers. It is her exit - from Mormonism - A part of her story! A Mormon story!

and those who call it a "Mormon story" are admitting that Mister Dehlin's "Mormon Stories" project is an anti-Mormon propaganda mill.

Well, I certainly call it that. And I admit to exactly none of your above wild projections.

[Pahoran]

Or, if your standard for what constitutes a "Mormon story" is a "story" from someone who has had the personal experience of being a "Mormon."

(I, too, might have mentioned that already)

 

She might be, I don't know.

She might also be a Girl Scout supporter, I don't know that either.

What I do know, is that whether these other things are true or not, none of them erase the fact that she was a Mormon - and as such - she clearly has a story - a Mormon story!

Did someone mention something about someone having an agenda?

 

Whether it is entirely agenda driven or not has nothing to do with it being hers. It is her exit - from Mormonism - A part of her story! A Mormon story!

Well, I certainly call it that. And I admit to exactly none of your above wild projections.

What "wild projections?" Mrs Tanner has been an actively proselytizing professional anti-Mormon since at least the 1970's!

That is a fact, not a "wild projection!"

(See, I can use exclamation marks, too.)

Whatever "Mormon story" she ever had is a dim and distant memory! The only story she can tell now is an "apostate story!"

That is also a fact, not a "wild projection!"

The fact (and not a "wild projection") that Mister Dehlin's project is an anti-Mormon propaganda mill has been well established entirely independently of the involvement of one of the most notorious anti-Mormons still living!

Her involvement therein merely confirms what we already know!

I will readily admit that the decades-old exit narrative (or "perversion story," the opposite of a conversion story) of a decrepit apostate is certainly good enough of a "Mormon story" for Mister Dehlin's project!

And that's because the standard of what constitutes a "Mormon story" for the purposes of that project is (yes, I'm saying it again) vanishingly low!

That John Dehlin has far more in common with Sandra Tanner than he does with any real Mormons (i.e. believing Latter-day Saints) comes as absolutely no surprise to me.

Neither does the fact that he should have like-minded acolytes here.

I expect that it is likely that fewer and fewer real Mormons are going to fall for Mister Dehlin's duplicity in the future, since it has been so thoroughly exposed to view. I imagine he's going to have to fall back on old apostates for his "Mormon stories" more and more.

Regards,

Pahoran

[name]

What "wild projections?"

"Those who call it a Mormon story are admitting that Mister Dehlin's Mormon stories project is an anti-Mormon propaganda mill"

I call it a Mormon story. Thus I am one of the people that you cast your above quoted wild projections upon.

Mrs Tanner has been an actively proselytizing professional anti-Mormon since at least the 1970's!

That is a fact, not a "wild projection!"

(See, I can use exclamation marks, too.)

Whatever "Mormon story" she ever had is a dim and distant memory! The only story she can tell now is an "apostate story!"

That is also a fact, not a "wild projection!"

The fact (and not a "wild projection") that Mister Dehlin's project is an anti-Mormon propaganda mill has been well established entirely independently of the involvement of one of the most notorious anti-Mormons still living!

Her involvement therein merely confirms what we already know!

I will readily admit that the decades-old exit narrative (or "perversion story," the opposite of a conversion story) of a decrepit apostate is certainly good enough of a "Mormon story" for Mister Dehlin's project!

And that's because the standard of what constitutes a "Mormon story" for the purposes of that project is (yes, I'm saying it again) vanishingly low!

That John Dehlin has far more in common with Sandra Tanner than he does with any real Mormons (i.e. believing Latter-day Saints) comes as absolutely no surprise to me.

Neither does the fact that he should have like-minded acolytes here.

I expect that it is likely that fewer and fewer real Mormons are going to fall for Mister Dehlin's duplicity in the future, since it has been so thoroughly exposed to view. I imagine he's going to have to fall back on old apostates for his "Mormon stories" more and more.

Regards,

Pahoran

Pahoran,

We don't seem to providing very much value in our exchanges thus far. So, other than answering your question directed to me "What wild projections?", I will let you have the last words on the matter.

Fair?

[readstoomuch]

Ok. I will bite. If the purpose of MS is to not provide a thoughtful balanced approach, but rather a far over-weighted doubting approach, then yes Sandra Tanner belongs there. Since she still believes in God, many faulted her for her persistent belief in the Bible. Now if she would use the same criteria to judge her own faith, I would love that!

[Robert F. Smith]

May the "quite a bit of love and understanding" continue to be given from you to your kids - as well as from your kids to you!

Perhaps the best way to end (or at least diminish) turmoil.

Yes, and Crosby, Stills & Nash said so well long ago:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ztVaqZajq-I .

[Robert F. Smith]

What "wild projections?" Mrs Tanner has been an actively proselytizing professional anti-Mormon since at least the 1970's!

Actually Sandra met Jerald in SLC in about 1959.  He was already preaching against racism within the LDS Church.  They were both baptized in the same Whitmerite Church in Independence, Missouri.  I knew and spent a lot of time with the members of that Independence congregation (Church of Christ).  They were good people, even if they were anti-Mormon.  They were very kind to me, even though I did not share their views.

..........................................................

Whatever "Mormon story" she ever had is a dim and distant memory! The only story she can tell now is an "apostate story!"

That is also a fact, not a "wild projection!"

The fact (and not a "wild projection") that Mister Dehlin's project is an anti-Mormon propaganda mill has been well established entirely independently of the involvement of one of the most notorious anti-Mormons still living!

Her involvement therein merely confirms what we already know!

I will readily admit that the decades-old exit narrative (or "perversion story," the opposite of a conversion story) of a decrepit apostate is certainly good enough of a "Mormon story" for Mister Dehlin's project!

And that's because the standard of what constitutes a "Mormon story" for the purposes of that project is (yes, I'm saying it again) vanishingly low!

That John Dehlin has far more in common with Sandra Tanner than he does with any real Mormons (i.e. believing Latter-day Saints) comes as absolutely no surprise to me.

Neither does the fact that he should have like-minded acolytes here.

I expect that it is likely that fewer and fewer real Mormons are going to fall for Mister Dehlin's duplicity in the future, since it has been so thoroughly exposed to view. I imagine he's going to have to fall back on old apostates for his "Mormon stories" more and more.

Regards,

Pahoran

I hear a great deal about "real" Mormons (Molly Mormons, TBMs, and such) from a variety of circles and sources, some of them drawing the walls and lines very narrowly -- admitting only a select group -- yet both Jesus Christ and Joseph Smith had little patience with the "smooth faced hypocrites" who certainly appeared outwardly to be the goody-goodies, but whose hearts lacked love at best and were black as Hell at worst.  Give me an honest and kind-hearted Jack-Mormon any day.  Hating apostates is so easy, and it bespeaks lack of faith in one's own beliefs.  Same for hating Sunday-go-to-meetin True Blue endowed Mormons.  They are so easy to hate.

 

Others figure that Hitler, Stalin, and even Satan may be forgiven and admitted to Heaven -- so universalist is the Mormon message.

 

All of us would be far better off just being kind to our neighbors and being a little less legalistic and judgmental.  Heck, some might even think that "Christlike"!

[Robert F. Smith]

I have been with mormonstories since it began. John started out as a questioner and his early podcasts reflect that questioning. In fact, if one sees the progression of his podcasts, one can see him questioning himself out of the church. He has flipped flopped quite a bit but when he began his mormonstories chapters and conferences, I believe that many members were affected by them and left. Then he returned to the fold only to leave again and it seems that he is back to his old ways when he began the chapters and conferences. I will speculate and say that those who have been around since john began his podcasts are not that affected by him but those who are just discovering him now are.

 

If anyone should be disciplined it is him and if he isn't, more members will leave the church because it will be seen to be unfair and the comparing of his treatment with the treatment of Kate will show up all over the blogs and discussion boards.

So what? Even if all you say is 100% true (and it isn't), why would you try to control the narrative? Dehlin presents necessary challenges to the faithful. This life is a test all of us must undergo, and without opposition it would be a meaningless test.  Lies are going to be told about us:  Get over it!

What is sad is that, Dehlin, while in the midst of his abysmal and less than adequate interviews, attempted to control the discussion about his own activities -- claiming falsely that someone was about to release a "hit piece" in the FARMS Review. He actually quashed it for a time!! Imagine how he would have responded if someone had quashed his interviews and prevented MormonStories from being broadcast.  Do you know how to spell HYPOCRISY?

[Robert F. Smith]

Seriously?  You expect church leaders to discern every criminal act?  I'd put that somewhere next to the expectation God should be giving us the cure for all diseases.  Or at least tipping off poor people to a winning lottery number.

 

I was one of those who thought the Salamander letter was real and that leaders were just obfuscating.  Aside from Elder Oaks' weak explanation that the salamander could be describing Moroni (or something,) they cautioned us to just be patient rather than jump to conclusions.  I thought they were just avoiding addressing it.  Until it turned out they were right.  Hoffman is considered one of the world's best forgers. It was one SLC expert who blew it wide open after his forgeries had been authenticated by others.

 

Their holding firm  (and that part rarely gets told) despite how bad it looked was a turning point for me.  I have never again automatically discounted what they say.

So you agreed with Sandra Tanner, who believed the Salamander Letter authentic?!  At the very same time, Jerald Tanner was publishing his arguments that it was a forgery.  How could Jerald and Sandra differ on this important issue?

 

Those familiar with early LDS Church folklore (Mark Hofmann certainly was), knew right away just how well the salamander story fit actual descriptions not known to the general public.  Historians of ancient folklore could also see how well the salamander tradition fit the Mormon angelic tradition.  Elder Oaks was right on target, as was Jan Shipps, in seeing how such a magical worldview could be integral to an authentic LDS tradition.  Indeed, most people fail to realize that professional theologians generally think that magic and religion are inextricably intertwined -- they cannot be differentiated.

 

That the forgery seemed successful for a time merely speaks to that powerful base in religious folklore, as FARMS publications demonstrated in great detail at that time.  The forgery did not diminish the importance of the magical worldview for early Mormonism, but instead enriched it.

[Robert F. Smith]

There book Mormonism Shadow or Reality was the book that started my exit. I saw Dialogue quoted a lot and then subscribed. Thats the way my husband started letter exchange with Wes Walters and the rest is history. I found MS of her interesting but lost interest in last one as I noticed she was too fundamentalist for me.Once we could purchase early copies of newspapers now we have Signature books producing for  100 dollarsall the papers and interesting diaries, journals etc.

I could never understand why someone would leave the church because of what someone had written about it. For example, history is a matter of interpretation by interpretating the facts to support the author's bias. And this would include Tanner and anyone else who writes a critique of lds history. It would be like me leaving the catholic church because of what an historian wrote about its history. I could also read a more faith promoting history where the facts are interpreted in a more faith promoting way. Also, the lds church is a testimony church. People pray over its truthfulness and usually receive a witness that it is true. Why would such a person leave the church over what was written about the church by a critic? I am sure that I could write a negative interpretation of historical fact of most protestant religions. History can usually have two or more sides. If this wasn't so, we would not have so many history books about the same time period on the market.

A good many people are poorly educated and quite naive.  If at the same time their faith is underdeveloped, it is easy to kick the slats out from under them (Wes Walters was among the best missionaries to the Mormons in that respect) -- they have no sure foundation upon which to stand.  Such a sure foundation is not necessarily acquired easily.  It may take time and hard work.  Research has shown that well-educated people are less likely to leave the LDS Church.

Edited July 17, 2014 by Robert F. Smith

[williamsmith]

Who cares? She's still just one person among the billions of us. She has no power to lead someone away anymore than anyone else. She simply speaks what she sees as the truth and it's because she has been able to show some the weakness of the LDS position, or inability to address the issues appropriately that she's had some success.

We act like we should fear some old lady. Only if she has truth, which she must have at least some. And if LDS have truth, the prove her wrong, then why fear her intent? She's got nothing. Or does she really have something?

 

I will add to what others have said concerning your characterization, that it's fine if she has a "story" to tell.  I understand Mormonstories pretends to be "neutral", but it's also a group that claims to be Mormon, thus letting such a person just "hang around" allowing them to try and lead others, and ensuring others are led out of the church is a different thing.

 

That old lady has destroyed many peoples testimony of the Gospel.  Understand, we aren't talking about "views", people simply sharing "views" of things, we are talking about bearing false witness.

Those who engage in anti-mormonism are nothing more than bigots, because almost everything they say about their target is a lie, a perversion of truth and fact.

This is why it's not appropriate.

[rockpond]

I will add to what others have said concerning your characterization, that it's fine if she has a "story" to tell.  I understand Mormonstories pretends to be "neutral", but it's also a group that claims to be Mormon, thus letting such a person just "hang around" allowing them to try and lead others, and ensuring others are led out of the church is a different thing.

 

That old lady has destroyed many peoples testimony of the Gospel.  Understand, we aren't talking about "views", people simply sharing "views" of things, we are talking about bearing false witness.

Those who engage in anti-mormonism are nothing more than bigots, because almost everything they say about their target is a lie, a perversion of truth and fact.

This is why it's not appropriate.

 

Has Sandra Tanner born false witness or just shared uncomfortable truths?

[USU78]

Has Sandra Tanner born false witness or just shared uncomfortable truths?

 

I'll bite.

 

"Yes, officer, he shot her right between the eyes.  I saw it all."

 

vs.

 

"Yes, officer, he shot her right between the eyes to stop her from detonating the bomb that would have destroyed Manhattan.  I saw it all."

 

Sandra reports the first version of a "quote" from an historical source, both leaving out the contextualizing language and presenting the quote as if it were complete.

 

And that makes her the worst kind of liar.

[rockpond]

 

I'll bite.

 

"Yes, officer, he shot her right between the eyes.  I saw it all."

 

vs.

 

"Yes, officer, he shot her right between the eyes to stop her from detonating the bomb that would have destroyed Manhattan.  I saw it all."

 

Sandra reports the first version of a "quote" from an historical source, both leaving out the contextualizing language and presenting the quote as if it were complete.

 

And that makes her the worst kind of liar.

 

I've never really had much of an interest in the Tanners... I remember hearing about them on my mission but that was about the limit of my exposure.  Until last month, that is, when I listened to the MS podcast interview with Sandra.  Nothing in that really caught my attention as "false witness".

 

Do you have an example of where she has taken quotes out of context to be misleading?

[USU78]

I've never really had much of an interest in the Tanners... I remember hearing about them on my mission but that was about the limit of my exposure.  Until last month, that is, when I listened to the MS podcast interview with Sandra.  Nothing in that really caught my attention as "false witness".

 

Do you have an example of where she has taken quotes out of context to be misleading?

 

That would involve me going to her website, giving her clicks and traffic, which I flat-out refuse to do.

[Tacenda]

That would involve me going to her website, giving her clicks and traffic, which I flat-out refuse to do.

Of course.

[readstoomuch]

I've never really had much of an interest in the Tanners... I remember hearing about them on my mission but that was about the limit of my exposure.  Until last month, that is, when I listened to the MS podcast interview with Sandra.  Nothing in that really caught my attention as "false witness".

 

Do you have an example of where she has taken quotes out of context to be misleading?

Read non-Mormon Lawrence Foster`s example in his Dialogue article about the Tanner`s as Career Apostates. I googled it a few minutes ago. It comes from a 1984 article in Dialogue.

So she is a nice old lady. She might even be pleasant in a dinner conversation and Gerald did have Alzheimers`s and she has a Mormon Story, but she deceives. That doesn`t mean there never is any substance to her writings. Read Foster`s article for yourself. I would apply this article to John Dehlin and Grant Palmer. In fact after recent podcast his flock was going after him for not being balanced in a Podcast with Alex Beam and the general tone his podcasts are taking. Alex ends up defending Mormonism from Dehlin. Doesn`t that just blow your mind. Even some of the people over in his group are understanding that he isn`t balanced when it comes to Mormons or his Mormonism.

[name]

That would involve me going to her website, giving her clicks and traffic, which I flat-out refuse to do.

You post that "Sandra is the worst kind of liar", then post this a few minutes later?

Quite bizarre and puzzling! IMO.

???

[Robert F. Smith]

...............................................................................................   

Sandra reports the first version of a "quote" from an historical source, both leaving out the contextualizing language and presenting the quote as if it were complete.

 

And that makes her the worst kind of liar.

Neither she nor Jerald had the benefit of higher education, and so were unacquainted with the niceties of proper investigative reportage, or even of acceptable canons of good historiography.

 

I think that both saw themselves as honest, committed Christians.  Servants of the Lord in their gargantuan effort to disestablish the LDS Church.  Yet their opposition to the Church was so slapdash and slipshod that they should have been embarrassed, and in the end they actually strengthened the Church.  A liar has to be aware that he is telling an untruth, but I don't see them as ever being knowing liars.  Just poorly informed, and poorly trained.  This is true of most Mormons and anti-Mormons.

 

William Smith complains that many have been led astray by them, but it may as well be the case that they were among the predators culling the herd of the unfit so that the primary herd was rendered healthier.

[USU78]

Neither she nor Jerald had the benefit of higher education, and so were unacquainted with the niceties of proper investigative reportage, or even of acceptable canons of good historiography.

I think that both saw themselves as honest, committed Christians. Servants of the Lord in their gargantuan effort to disestablish the LDS Church. Yet their opposition to the Church was so slapdash and slipshod that they should have been embarrassed, and in the end they actually strengthened the Church. A liar has to be aware that he is telling an untruth, but I don't see them as ever being knowing liars. Just poorly informed, and poorly trained. This is true of most Mormons and anti-Mormons.

William Smith complains that many have been led astray by them, but it may as well be the case that they were among the predators culling the herd of the unfit so that the primary herd was rendered healthier.

Sandra as hyena. I like it!