Sandra Tanner Is A Member Of Mormonstories

[rockpond]

Who is the active temple recommend holder you are referring to?

Dehlin (he was called an anti-Mormon by the poster I responded to). But come to think of it, I'm not actually sure if Dehlin has a TR. I thought he said he did. But even without that, he is active, recently baptized his son, and has professed his love for the Mormon church. To call him an anti-Mormon is such a loose and subjective use of the word that it becomes pointless. Using the term that way is more like saying: this person doesn't agree with my view of Mormonism so they are "anti".

[rockpond]

I wondered that too, but then the thought occurred it's probably Rockpond himself!!

Ha. It wasn't. But I've been called worse. But only by people who don't know me and tend to assume the worst about my posts here.

[Tacenda]

Dehlin (he was called an anti-Mormon by the poster I responded to). But come to think of it, I'm not actually sure if Dehlin has a TR. I thought he said he did. But even without that, he is active, recently baptized his son, and has professed his love for the Mormon church. To call him an anti-Mormon is such a loose and subjective use of the word that it becomes pointless. Using the term that way is more like saying: this person doesn't agree with my view of Mormonism so they are "anti".

Yeah, I've heard it said that saying anti-Mormon is like saying anti-truth, so using that term is misleading in a way.  Such anti stuff on the internet turns out to be fact alot of times.  And the apologists give it a different scenario.  Calling JD an anti is uncalled for probably, just call him a truth seeker and unbeliever of some things Mormon, but remember it's his truth and truth is subjective.      

Edited July 29, 2014 by Tacenda

[Tacenda]

Ha. It wasn't. But I've been called worse. But only by people who don't know me and tend to assume the worst about my posts here.

I only meant the part about you being a TR holder, definitely not the part that you are anti!!  Sorry that it came out wrong like that. 

[Pahoran]

I haven't studied her entire life but it seems that she believes quite firmly that she's been on a mission of seeking & promoting truth. I can't fault her for that anymore than I can fault you for doing the same even though you two hold deeply divided opinions of the Church.

What I was referring to was her MS podcast interview and this thread. Put the transcript of the podcast up next to this thread and she comes off looking much nicer than many active, believing Mormons who are posting here. There are numerous posts wherein she is attacked personally rather than engaging what she actually said in MS.

You're absolutely right, Rockpond. Mrs Tanner's history regarding the Church of Jesus Christ is entirely irrelevant to this discussion.

It's only the WHOLE REASON MISTER DEHLIN INTERVIEWED HER IN THE FIRST PLACE.

Regards,

Pahoran

[readstoomuch]

JD, KK and Sandra Tanner all looked at information about the Church that I also examined. I have read a number of things written by the Tanners and others attempting to disprove the teachings of the LDS Church. They are all obviously bright people and I don`t know why I chose to remain despite having read it all. I really have read extensively, including spending time in the archives at the Church, UofU and BYU. I look at my religion differently now, but I still believe in God and the restoration. The idea of restoration speaks to me in a significant way.

I taught my kids about the Church and tried to be well-rounded with them. The oldest two are having their struggles at least partly or perhaps predominantly from JD and KK. I am of the opinion that they were both in a situation where they could have said things differently or chosen to take different stands that would have helped my children. Why couldn`t they just been a tad more faithful? I don`t hear much new in MS podcasts. Why do I still remain faithful despite what seems to drive all of these people away?

[Calm]

"Why do I still remain faithful despite what seems to drive all of these people away?"

The million dollar question.

[Tacenda]

"Why do I still remain faithful despite what seems to drive all of these people away?"

The million dollar question.

The billion dollar question.!!

[teddyaware]

The billion dollar question.!!

It's so easy to answer that question that I would say it's actually a two cent question. It's because the teachings and doctrines of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints so logically, reasonably and beautifully answer nearly all of life's great questions that anything else truly pales by comparison. Why drive a Ford Pinto when you can ride a top-of-the-line Mercedes Benz.

[Tacenda]

I'm watching Rachel Maddow and she's interviewing a woman minister (?) of a church that is pro choice. Apparently an anti abortion Christian group barged in and told the congregation during worship, that their beliefs were wrong, along with their God. I don't know why but a light bulb went off, we need to mind our own business and let people believe how/want they want, as long as it's not hurting anyone. I see now that anti Mormons are totally off base, I guess even Sandra Tanner.

[teddyaware]

I'm watching Rachel Maddow and she's interviewing a woman minister (?) of a church that is pro choice. Apparently an anti abortion Christian group barged in and told the congregation during worship, that their beliefs were wrong, along with their God. I don't know why but a light bulb went off, we need to mind our own business and let people believe how/want they want, as long as it's not hurting anyone. I see now that anti Mormons are totally off base, I guess even Sandra Tanner.

More power to you that you can watch Rachel Maddow. About 30 seconds of her is all I can tolerate before revulsion sets in and I flip to whatever.

[Tacenda]

More power to you that you can watch Rachel Maddow. About 30 seconds of her is all I can tolerate before revulsion sets in and I flip to whatever.

I'm so exhausted today and was laying on the couch going through every channel, I stopped when they showed these protesters in a church! They even went into the church nursery!! Normally I never watch Rachel, though that doesn't mean I don't like dems.

Edited July 30, 2014 by Tacenda

[Calm]

I don't know why but a light bulb went off, we need to mind our own business and let people believe how/want they want, as long as it's not hurting anyone. 

 

You do realize that most anti-abortion groups believe that abortion is murdering a child and not just delaying them getting a body.  Their faith is that each spirit is created at the moment of conception and it linked with that body so when it dies, the spirit has lost its chance at a life.  And if that means in their belief system (I would assume some do, some don't) the spirit attached to that body never gets a chance at learning of Christ, it is damned to hell eternally.

 

If one is horrified at the thought of infanticide, one should understand how these people feel.  Abortion is more definitely hurting someone in their view.

 

And for those who believe that mistaken belief in God damns a person to eternal suffering in hell…that is harming someone as well so I don't resent those anti-mormons who act out of that motivation.

Edited July 30, 2014 by calmoriah

[Tacenda]

You do realize that most anti-abortion groups believe that abortion is murdering a child and not just delaying them getting a body.  Their faith is that each spirit is created at the moment of conception and it linked with that body so when it dies, the spirit has lost its chance at a life.  And if that means in their belief system (I would assume some do, some don't) the spirit attached to that body never gets a chance at learning of Christ, it is damned to hell eternally.

 

If one is horrified at the thought of infanticide, one should understand how these people feel.  Abortion is more definitely hurting someone in their view.

 

And for those who believe that mistaken belief in God damns a person to eternal suffering in hell…that is harming someone as well so I don't resent those anti-mormons who act out of that motivation.

I know, I agree.  And I hate abortion, it just hit me how they as Christians attacked another Christian group, so duh to me, that that's what some people do to the LDS, that's all.  And, when they believe in pro-choice maybe that is along the lines of if it means that it might hurt the mother or in case of rape also.  Atleast one could hope that women would never want to take her child.  But I don't want this to go off into a tangent.  Just mentioning that people like Sandra Tanner and others really should leave the LDS alone now.  I had a change of thinking let's just say.  At first I thought some things should be exposed for people to make a correct choice before joining a church.  But it's all in the past, the not so nice history.  ETA:  And you noted in your post that some Christian groups believe the LDS people are going to hell if they don't get out of Mormonism, so an interesting dichotomy. 

Edited July 30, 2014 by Tacenda

[Robert F. Smith]

JD, KK and Sandra Tanner all looked at information about the Church that I also examined. I have read a number of things written by the Tanners and others attempting to disprove the teachings of the LDS Church. They are all obviously bright people and I don`t know why I chose to remain despite having read it all. I really have read extensively, including spending time in the archives at the Church, UofU and BYU. I look at my religion differently now, but I still believe in God and the restoration. The idea of restoration speaks to me in a significant way.

I taught my kids about the Church and tried to be well-rounded with them. The oldest two are having their struggles at least partly or perhaps predominantly from JD and KK. I am of the opinion that they were both in a situation where they could have said things differently or chosen to take different stands that would have helped my children. Why couldn`t they just been a tad more faithful? I don`t hear much new in MS podcasts. Why do I still remain faithful despite what seems to drive all of these people away?

Testimonies are not transferable, and it isn't fair to blame others for the presence or lack of a testimony.  We all have to take responsibility for our own testimonies, and we all have to address life's challenges on our own.  Those who live on "borrowed light" rather than their own testimony, will always be weak and easily swayed this way or that by the fad of the day.

 

I don't know how old your children are, but I suspect that their life-story is far from over yet.  There are many chapters to be written, and you need to be loving and respectful of their choices as the process continues.  The worst thing you can do is to be impatient or contemptuous of their choices (unless they are going down the road to criminality).

[Tacenda]

Testimonies are not transferable, and it isn't fair to blame others for the presence or lack of a testimony. We all have to take responsibility for our own testimonies, and we all have to address life's challenges on our own. Those who live on "borrowed light" rather than their own testimony, will always be weak and easily swayed this way or that by the fad of the day.

I don't know how old your children are, but I suspect that their life-story is far from over yet. There are many chapters to be written, and you need to be loving and respectful of their choices as the process continues. The worst thing you can do is to be impatient or contemptuous of their choices (unless they are going down the road to criminality).

Wiser words were never spoken..

[Robert F. Smith]

This is the Wesley Walter who stole important documents about Joseph Smith from the Palmyra library, denied it and then only returned them after he was threatened with a civil suit and charges or theft. This is the Wesley Walters whose argument hinged on their being no proof in local newspapers that there was a revival that fit into the timeframe of the First Vision. Despite the fact that many revivals are not advertised. They are by word of mouth or flyer. Did he stimulate research about the First Vision and early Mormon history? Sure. Did he produce a slam dunk case or is his reputation pristine? No way.

CFR on the papers Wes supposedly stole from the Palmyra Library.

You present a boiler-plate rumor-mongering version of the late Rev. Wes Walters, which makes everyone feel good to know that he was so dishonest.  The late Wes Walters I knew was more honest than most Mormons and non-Mormons I have known.  He was a conservative Presbyterian minister who had a congregation in Marissa, Illinois.  In his day, he was by far the most intellectually able anti-Mormon I ever met.  He wasn't perfect, and I am aware of several of his lapses in judgment (for which I and others successfully called him to account)   He was a brilliant raconteur, and I considered him a friend.  Most Mormon historians were deeply fearful of him. His complete papers are on deposit at Covenant Theological Seminary in St Louis, in case you want to do a factual evaluation.

 

Sandra came across as a nice old lady. Robert F. Smith has some posts on this thread that say nice things about them. They could also be rabid anti-mormons. When they spoke at the Baptist Church two blocks from my missionary apartment they were used the term "of the Devil." The literature turned up daily out tracting and tracting is what we did every day. They were evangelical anti-mormons, much like Wesley Walters. I don`t think John Dehlin buys into their view of religion any more than he does Mormonism. It sounds like Kate Kelly is pretty much on the same as JD. It sounds like if religions become progressive then JD and KK think that they are just fine. If they accept LGBT, SSM, ordaining women, etc. then all is hunky dory to them. JD and KK are secular/agnostic Mormons/anti-Mormons if you will and it is a sort of weird stew to bring the secular and evangelical anti-mormons together to further fight the Church. Strange bedfellows.

All of us could use restraint in the language we use to describe our "enemies."

 

Mormons in general, and some Mormon missionaries I have known in particular, have sometimes spoken in very nasty fashion of members of other churches, e.g., GA Church (specifically referring to the Roman Catholics).  One example I vividly recall was a returned missionary who spoke loosely about Roman Catholic priests and nuns having orgies.  I called him to account for such unkind and unsupported claims and made a permanent enemy of him (I was pretty harsh, and I regret it very much).

[Calm]

Testimonies are not transferable, and it isn't fair to blame others for the presence or lack of a testimony.  We all have to take responsibility for our own testimonies, and we all have to address life's challenges on our own. 

 

I most definitely agree, but do we also not have a responsibility to recognize that we do influence others by our actions and act accordingly?  

[Calm]

When they spoke at the Baptist Church two blocks from my missionary apartment they were used the term "of the Devil." 

 

And if our beliefs end up leading people to hell in their view, they were right and should so teach of us.

 

My only problem is when lies are used.  If we really are of the devil, there should be more than enough actual evil to persuade those open to the Spirit to leave that they shouldn't be lazy and use lies and slander as an easy route to raise distrust.

[Robert F. Smith]

I am thankful for the Tanners as that is how we came to have a long communication with  Wesley P Walters. I personally feel neither Sorenson, Gee, Welsh and Bushman have been able to counter the Tanners. You see they quote a lot from other books and journals. Thats when I started subscribing to Dialogue and Sunstone. Backman never mentioned in his book on the FV any reference to Walter's Dialogue article. Many people like Quinn and Vogel paid him a vist where he shared the fruits of his research. Not bad for someone who never made much money out of it, and used his vacation time for search the various archives around New York.

I have known all of those you name here (except Backman), and have shared my research with each of them, including Wes.  All spent a good deal of their time doing serious research and writing without being concerned with what Wes Walters was writing.  Also your picture of research only going in one direction is false.  It has always been a two-way street among professional historians, regardless of their faith preferences.  One problem which has become apparent (which I did not realize when he was alive) is that Wes was incapable of taking into account the very important evidence for revivals in and near Palmyra in 1820, which Mike Quinn made available in several forms:  See his “JOSEPH SMITH'S EXPERIENCE OF A METHODIST ‘CAMP-MEETING’ IN 1820", in which he is directly critical of Wes.  It was originally a Dialogue ePaper, but see his final 2006 revision at http://ldsfocuschrist2.wordpress.com/2011/02/24/2006-joseph-smiths-experience-of-a-methodist-camp-meeting-in-1820-d-michael-quinn/ .

Edited July 30, 2014 by Robert F. Smith

[Robert F. Smith]

I most definitely agree, but do we also not have a responsibility to recognize that we do influence others by our actions and act accordingly?  

Most assuredly, calmoriah.

I just don't like the zero-sum blame game, although I do expect it among very young children.

Edited July 30, 2014 by Robert F. Smith

[Robert F. Smith]

I do not recall him being accused of that, but accused of stealing the docfroments relating to the 1826 trial .  He spread the information around before he returned them. I think because he could not get a copy they would be foregotten and lost.

I think you are right, Helen, but I asked him in my post #192 to provide a source for his rumor-mongering.

 

he provided me with information on church growthi in the area from 1819 to 1821 and it was not very impressive. It seems the description of the revival best fits 1823-24. When did Smith refuse to join the PC as a result of a revival. After his son, Alvin had died (1823).?Maybe they will fiind those records that have been missing since 1930 (centenary of LDS) of the West Palmyra PC? Maybe they are in the LDS vault? These would show when they joined the PC.

Wes was always helpful in sharing his historical information about the early days of the Restoration.  I learned a lot from him.  Unfortunately, as I mention in post #195, Wes was unable to deal with the hard evidence for 1820 camp meetings.  Perhaps he had a blind spot, or maybe he just forgot to include it in his thinking (we all tend to ignore evidence which doesn't fit our preconceived notions).

Edited July 30, 2014 by Robert F. Smith

[readstoomuch]

CFR on the papers Wes supposedly stole from the Palmyra Library.

You present a boiler-plate rumor-mongering version of the late Rev. Wes Walters, which makes everyone feel good to know that he was so dishonest. The late Wes Walters I knew was more honest than most Mormons and non-Mormons I have known. He was a conservative Presbyterian minister who had a congregation in Marissa, Illinois. In his day, he was by far the most intellectually able anti-Mormon I ever met. He wasn't perfect, and I am aware of several of his lapses in judgment (for which I and others successfully called him to account) He was a brilliant raconteur, and I considered him a friend. Most Mormon historians were deeply fearful of him. His complete papers are on deposit at Covenant Theological Seminary in St Louis, in case you want to do a factual evaluation.

All of us could use restraint in the language we use to describe our "enemies."

Mormons in general, and some Mormon missionaries I have known in particular, have sometimes spoken in very nasty fashion of members of other churches, e.g., GA Church (specifically referring to the Roman Catholics). One example I vividly recall was a returned missionary who spoke loosely about Roman Catholic priests and nuns having orgies. I called him to account for such unkind and unsupported claims and made a permanent enemy of him (I was pretty harsh, and I regret it very much).

I am not great at posting. It is mentioned in FAIR article about 1826, Larry Porter reported being in Palmyra around the time it happened and effected his ability to do research in Palmyra. This is not a careless remark about Wes Walters. I am trying to show charity and I enjoy most of your comments, but I heard some horrible things from the Tanners sitting in that Baptist Church and they used Wesley Walters as one of their sources during the talk. I didn't enjoy seeing garments displayed in public. Compared to the venom I listened to, I am so temperate in talking about them. It is nice to hear about another side of all these people. I would love to hear some faith promoting stories from KK and JD.

[SeekingUnderstanding]

It's so easy to answer that question that I would say it's actually a two cent question. It's because the teachings and doctrines of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints so logically, reasonably and beautifully answer nearly all of life's great questions that anything else truly pales by comparison. Why drive a Ford Pinto when you can ride a top-of-the-line Mercedes Benz.

 

I am curious as to how you reconcile this to the fact that active Mormons make up less than 0.1% of the world population. What keeps almost all people from seeing the logic, reason, and beauty of LDS theology that answers nearly all of life's questions in a way to make everything else pale in comparison? I ask this in all sincerity.

[teddyaware]

I am curious as to how you reconcile this to the fact that active Mormons make up less than 0.1% of the world population. What keeps almost all people from seeing the logic, reason, and beauty of LDS theology that answers nearly all of life's questions in a way to make everything else pale in comparison? I ask this in all sincerity.

Because most people are perfectly content to live out their lives taking most everything for granted. I was one of those rare individuals who from my early youth fervently longed for good, and hopefully wonderful answers to life's great questions (e.g. who am I? where did I come from? why am I here" where am I going?). I ultimately found those answers after proactively seeking out the truth for many years; a quest that culminated when I found, investigated and then joined the LDS Church just prior to my 21st birthday (I'm now nearly 65). Meanwhile most people don't bother to seek out the answers, let alone even bother to ask the questions. Why?

14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. (Matthew 7)

By the Lord's own word, there will be few who will find the path and the gate that lead to life on their own. Nevertheless, this sorry state of affairs will not always remain the status quo because a great many others will be lovingly led by the hand to the very path and gate of life they never sought for, and this according to the will of an all-loving, merciful and compassionate God. And so we read:

1 Hearken, O ye people of my church, saith the voice of him who dwells on high, and whose eyes are upon all men; yea, verily I say: Hearken ye people from afar; and ye that are upon the islands of the sea, listen together.

2 For verily the voice of the Lord is unto all men, and there is none to escape; and there is no eye that shall not see, neither ear that shall not hear, neither heart that shall not be penetrated. (D&C 1)

and again,

30 But behold, from among the righteous, he organized his forces and appointed messengers, clothed with power and authority, and commissioned them to go forth and carry the light of the gospel to them that were in darkness, even to all the spirits of men; and thus was the gospel preached to the dead.

31 And the chosen messengers went forth to declare the acceptable day of the Lord and proclaim liberty to the captives who were bound, even unto all who would repent of their sins and receive the gospel.

32 Thus was the gospel preached to those who had died in their sins, without a knowledge of the truth, or in transgression, having rejected the prophets. (D&C 138)

and again,

109 But behold, and lo, we saw the glory and the inhabitants of the telestial world, that they were as innumerable as the stars in the firmament of heaven, or as the sand upon the seashore;

110 And heard the voice of the Lord saying: These all shall bow the knee, and every tongue shall confess to him who sits upon the throne forever and ever;

111 For they shall be judged according to their works, and every man shall receive according to his own works, his own dominion, in the mansions which are prepared; (D&C 76)

 

Unlike myself, many others, for whatever reason, do not know about or appreciate the LDS Church's answers to life's great questions, but the day will come when all but the sons of perdition will come to love and appreciate the great plan of salvations as taught by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints...

36 These are they (the sons of perdition) who shall go away into the lake of fire and brimstone, with the devil and his angels—

37 And the only ones on whom the second death shall have any power;

38 Yea, verily, the only ones who shall not be redeemed in the due time of the Lord, after the sufferings of his wrath.

39 For all the rest shall be brought forth by the resurrection of the dead, through the triumph and the glory of the Lamb, who was slain, who was in the bosom of the Father before the worlds were made.

40 And this is the gospel, the glad tidings, which the voice out of the heavens bore record unto us— (D&C 76)

Edited July 30, 2014 by teddyaware