Dealing With Family Members That Are Anti Church

[jkwilliams]

Hello Antoni...

I'm always baffled by how non-members are so vehement in their opposition to the Church... have they really taken time to find out "accurate" information about our doctrines... not from some anti-Mormon website??  Our standards of moral and spiritual behavior are of the highest order for those who truly strive to live the gospel. 

Is it possible that you can give to your closest family some information... there are two little booklets that come to mind.  The fist... "True to the Faith" is a brief compilation of our basic doctrines, arranged by topic alphabetically... 5"x7", 190 pages... and gives scriptural references for additonal reading, from the Bible and the standard works. 

The second is "For the Strength of Youth" which gives the basic standards we set specifically for our youth. 

These booklets are available through your ward librarian or ward clerk's office.  You could give these booklets, saying that you want to be  sure they have "accurate" information.. because you know there are a lot of misconceptions about the Church...

In my experience, it's almost impossible to have a reasonable discussion about the facts. People who react that emotionally usually aren't reacting because of the facts but because of the perceived family and personal betrayal. If they have questions you can answer without arguing, that's a good first step, but you can't get people to educate themselves if they aren't willing.

 

Good luck... I agree with everyone else that living by example, continuing to love and participate as family members, etc is desirable.

 

GG

Yup.

[ERayR]

What, have I become invisible?  

I agree with you, having said exactly the same thing earlier in this thread.  

 

Whoops.  I sometimes skim through and miss some things.  No hard feelings. 

Edited June 27, 2014 by ERayR

[jkwilliams]

Whoops.  I sometimes skim through and miss some things.  No hard feelings. 

None whatsoever. Just don't quote any cowboy poetry to me, and we're good.

I just realized that the advice I gave in this thread is exactly the same as what I recommended for families who are dealing with someone who has left the church. Go figure.

[ERayR]

None whatsoever. Just don't quote any cowboy poetry to me, and we're good.

I just realized that the advice I gave in this thread is exactly the same as what I recommended for families who are dealing with someone who has left the church. Go figure.

 

The cowboy poetry thing produced some interesting reactions.  Can't say as I expected that violent of a reaction.

 

I find it to be equally as relevant whichever way one is going.

Edited June 27, 2014 by ERayR

[Antoni]

thank you all, last nights conversation with them didn't go well to be honest - I got a bit heated which I'm not proud of, but some very hurtful things were said and done by them.

 

However in some ways it does feel like the "boil has been lanced" and we're meeting individually with family members today and are simple going to explain our testimony/what about church we like and offer just to agree to disagree.

 

Your counsel has been so useful and I thank you all for it.

[teddyaware]

thank you all, last nights conversation with them didn't go well to be honest - I got a bit heated which I'm not proud of, but some very hurtful things were said and done by them.

 

However in some ways it does feel like the "boil has been lanced" and we're meeting individually with family members today and are simple going to explain our testimony/what about church we like and offer just to agree to disagree.

 

Your counsel has been so useful and I thank you all for it.

Here are some of the things I would say to family and friends if I were faced with a situation like yours:

1) I prefer to believe God the Father has a celestial body of flesh and bone. I like the idea that I will be able to look into His eye and see the expressions on His face. I also cherish the thought that He might give me a fatherly hug one day.

2) I prefer to believe that I am a literal spirit child of heavenly parents. It gives me a wonderful sense of hope to realize that because I'm God's son I can "grow up" to be like Him.

3) I prefer to believe in the pre-existence of the human spirit. Earth life and its trials make a lot more sense when I realize that before I was born I was fully informed about what would happen on this fallen earth and that I chose to come here of my own free will and choice, knowing great glory would follow.

4) I prefer to believe in the three degrees of glory. The idea that for some mysterious reason a perfectly loving God would send the majority of the human race to and endless hell of unimaginable suffering never sat right with me.

5) I prefer to believe that the Gospel is taught to the dead. It seems so just and right, and in keeping with the character of a perfectly loving, just and merciful God, to understand that God will make sure all who never had the opportunity to hear the Gospel in this life will have that chance in the spirit world after they die. It makes just as much sense to understand that even those who rebelled against God in this life, like the wicked people of Noah's day, will have the chance to repent and accept God's saving grace before the final judgement.

6) I prefer to believe that the day of revelation from heaven has not come to an end. If the Bible were a sufficient guide, there wouldn't be so many conflicting sects who all claim to understand the Bible most correctly, with no way to tell which one of the sects is right.

7) I prefer to believe that the day of living Apostles and Prophets hasn't come to an end. Throughout all of sacred history, the Lord's people always had living Prophets to guide them in the way of truth. Why should we in our day of gross wickedness and confusion be denied the blessing of living Prophets, Seers and revelators.

8  I prefer to believe the Book of Mormon is the word of God. I've read and seriously pondered the Book of Mormon and my own common sense, and the inspiration of the Spirit, convince me that young Joseph Smith could have never produced that intensely inspiring Christ-centered masterpiece unless he was given the ability to do so by the gift and power of God.

9) I prefer to believe the priesthood of God has been restored to the earth. The Lord told Peter He would give him the keys of the kingdom and the power to bind in heaven whatsoever he would bind on earth. It gives me great comfort to know that that same keys of the kingdom and sealing priesthood power are once again on the earth.

10) I prefer to believe in eternal marriage and families. Who can doubt but that it was God's design in the beginning, before the fall, to have the man and the woman united in marriage forever to live in His presence without sin, in glory, and in a state of perfect marital unity (one flesh). And since family life is the most meaningful and joyful aspect of this life, I rejoice in the knowledge that our family organization and associations will continue in heaven, only there to be coupled with perfect love eternal glory.

 

If you would like more bullet points, I will gladly provide them.

 

All the best,

Ted

Edited June 28, 2014 by teddyaware

[Rain]

I'm sorry it didn't go well. I hope things go better today. Just remember that for you to change you had to feel the Spirit. It is the same for them as well for the change in their relationship with you.

Edited June 28, 2014 by Rain

[sdc999]

Hello Antoni...

I'm always baffled by how non-members are so vehement in their opposition to the Church... 

 

GG

I will agree that a lot really are.  But this very much swings both ways.  It is the same when someone leaves the church as well.   Does shunning take place? - you bet it does.  Our family has been there and done that.  I can honestly say that I wasn't a very vocal person about our exit until that happened in such a strong way from family and friends.  That's what brought my anger to a head more than anything.  As time has passed, and tensions have eased, I very much less outspoken.  There are things that trigger a harsh response every now and then.  When a member approaches (mostly family)  and says that 'I've thrown it all away,'  I don't protect their feelings in my response.     

My SILs are so bitter because my elderly MIL still has my spouse order garments on her behalf.  'It's not right....yada yada blada blada.'   Okay, why did you let your pregnant daughter (oops) go ahead and get married in the Temple?   When throwing stones, someone is always ready to throw back......

And this happens both ways - not just when someone joins the church but when they leave as well.  

  

 

Here are some of the things I would say to family and friends if I were faced with a situation like yours:

1) I prefer to believe God the Father has a celestial body of flesh and bone. I like the idea that I will be able to look into His eye and see the expressions on His face. I also cherish the thought that He might give me a fatherly hug one day.

2) I prefer to believe that I am a literal spirit child of heavenly parents. It gives me a wonderful sense of hope to realize that because I'm God's son I can "grow up" to be like Him.

3) I prefer to believe in the pre-existence of the human spirit. Earth life and its trials make a lot more sense when I realize that before I was born I was fully informed about what would happen on this fallen earth and that I chose to come here of my own free will and choice, knowing great glory would follow.

4) I prefer to believe in the three degrees of glory. The idea that for some mysterious reason a perfectly loving God would send the majority of the human race to and endless hell of unimaginable suffering never sat right with me.

5) I prefer to believe that the Gospel is taught to the dead. It seems so just and right, and in keeping with the character of a perfectly loving, just and merciful God, to understand that God will make sure all who never had the opportunity to hear the Gospel in this life will have that chance in the spirit world after they die. It makes just as much sense to understand that even those who rebelled against God in this life, like the wicked people of Noah's day, will have the chance to repent and accept God's saving grace before the final judgement.

6) I prefer to believe that the day of revelation from heaven has not come to an end. If the Bible were a sufficient guide, there wouldn't be so many conflicting sects who all claim to understand the Bible most correctly, with no way to tell which one of the sects is right.

7) I prefer to believe that the day of living Apostles and Prophets hasn't come to an end. Throughout all of sacred history, the Lord's people always had living Prophets to guide them in the way of truth. Why should we in our day of gross wickedness and confusion be denied the blessing of living Prophets, Seers and revelators.

8  I prefer to believe the Book of Mormon is the word of God. I've read and seriously pondered the Book of Mormon and my own common sense, and the inspiration of the Spirit, convince me that young Joseph Smith could have never produced that intensely inspiring Christ-centered masterpiece unless he was given the ability to do so by the gift and power of God.

9) I prefer to believe the priesthood of God has been restored to the earth. The Lord told Peter He would give him the keys of the kingdom and the power to bind in heaven whatsoever he would bind on earth. It gives me great comfort to know that that same keys of the kingdom and sealing priesthood power are once again on the earth.

10) I prefer to believe in eternal marriage and families. Who can doubt but that it was God's design in the beginning, before the fall, to have the man and the woman united in marriage forever to live in His presence without sin, in glory, and in a state of perfect marital unity (one flesh). And since family life is the most meaningful and joyful aspect of this life, I rejoice in the knowledge that our family organization and associations will continue in heaven, only there to be coupled with perfect love eternal glory.

 

If you would like more bullet points, I will gladly provide them.

 

All the best,

Ted

"I believe in Jesus Christ and this is the best fit for me and my family."    I believe that is what should be said and people should honor it.  If you get into the 'I prefer to believes', you're stating that the other side is Wrong for believing the way they do and the confrontation begins.   'here's why you're wrong..... no, here's why you're wrong.'  It's a never ending ride that drives a wedge that once placed, is very hard to remove.  

[teddyaware]

I will agree that a lot really are.  But this very much swings both ways.  It is the same when someone leaves the church as well.   Does shunning take place? - you bet it does.  Our family has been there and done that.  I can honestly say that I wasn't a very vocal person about our exit until that happened in such a strong way from family and friends.  That's what brought my anger to a head more than anything.  As time has passed, and tensions have eased, I very much less outspoken.  There are things that trigger a harsh response every now and then.  When a member approaches (mostly family)  and says that 'I've thrown it all away,'  I don't protect their feelings in my response.     

My SILs are so bitter because my elderly MIL still has my spouse order garments on her behalf.  'It's not right....yada yada blada blada.'   Okay, why did you let your pregnant daughter (oops) go ahead and get married in the Temple?   When throwing stones, someone is always ready to throw back......

And this happens both ways - not just when someone joins the church but when they leave as well.  

  

 

"I believe in Jesus Christ and this is the best fit for me and my family."    I believe that is what should be said and people should honor it.  If you get into the 'I prefer to believes', you're stating that the other side is Wrong for believing the way they do and the confrontation begins.   'here's why you're wrong..... no, here's why you're wrong.'  It's a never ending ride that drives a wedge that once placed, is very hard to remove.

Notice that in my post I quite deliberately expressed myself by saying "I prefer to believe." That's a far cry from being heavy handed and saying "I know by revelation from heaven that this or that LDS doctrine is true." By using this "I prefer to believe" approach, I have been able to have meaningful discussions with those who disagree with my LDS faith and in the end settle on cordially agreeing to disagree. Besides, I've known disagreeable critics of the LDS Church who were eventually converted and baptized due to cordial but earnest discussions.

All the above being said, I do agree that if after presenting my first 'I prefer to believe' bullet point the party I'm trying to have a friendly conversation with starts railing in anger, I would immediately cut off the conversation because, as we LDS are taught, it is the devil who is the author of angry contention and I wouldn't want to give the adversary the perverse satisfaction of seeing his will being done.

[Deborah]

I know we're taking an important step this weekend and we knew satan would be against it, but their reaction really has shocked (and hurt) us.

 

 

 

I went through the same reaction when I wanted to be baptised at age 14. Except that I was the only one in my family who actually went to church. My mom called over my pastor to talk to me and he told me "I don't care if you join any church except the Mormon Church." However, I was determined and my mother finally allowed me to be baptised but I was instructed to never talk about the church at home. Eventually my family saw the good it did everyone ended up being baptised. Not everyone stayed in the church but still hearts will change when they see how the church works in your life.

[saemo]

Here are some of the things I would say to family and friends if I were faced with a situation like yours:

1) I prefer to believe God the Father has a celestial body of flesh and bone. I like the idea that I will be able to look into His eye and see the expressions on His face. I also cherish the thought that He might give me a fatherly hug one day.

2) I prefer to believe that I am a literal spirit child of heavenly parents. It gives me a wonderful sense of hope to realize that because I'm God's son I can "grow up" to be like Him.

3) I prefer to believe in the pre-existence of the human spirit. Earth life and its trials make a lot more sense when I realize that before I was born I was fully informed about what would happen on this fallen earth and that I chose to come here of my own free will and choice, knowing great glory would follow.

4) I prefer to believe in the three degrees of glory. The idea that for some mysterious reason a perfectly loving God would send the majority of the human race to and endless hell of unimaginable suffering never sat right with me.

5) I prefer to believe that the Gospel is taught to the dead. It seems so just and right, and in keeping with the character of a perfectly loving, just and merciful God, to understand that God will make sure all who never had the opportunity to hear the Gospel in this life will have that chance in the spirit world after they die. It makes just as much sense to understand that even those who rebelled against God in this life, like the wicked people of Noah's day, will have the chance to repent and accept God's saving grace before the final judgement.

6) I prefer to believe that the day of revelation from heaven has not come to an end. If the Bible were a sufficient guide, there wouldn't be so many conflicting sects who all claim to understand the Bible most correctly, with no way to tell which one of the sects is right.

7) I prefer to believe that the day of living Apostles and Prophets hasn't come to an end. Throughout all of sacred history, the Lord's people always had living Prophets to guide them in the way of truth. Why should we in our day of gross wickedness and confusion be denied the blessing of living Prophets, Seers and revelators.

8  I prefer to believe the Book of Mormon is the word of God. I've read and seriously pondered the Book of Mormon and my own common sense, and the inspiration of the Spirit, convince me that young Joseph Smith could have never produced that intensely inspiring Christ-centered masterpiece unless he was given the ability to do so by the gift and power of God.

9) I prefer to believe the priesthood of God has been restored to the earth. The Lord told Peter He would give him the keys of the kingdom and the power to bind in heaven whatsoever he would bind on earth. It gives me great comfort to know that that same keys of the kingdom and sealing priesthood power are once again on the earth.

10) I prefer to believe in eternal marriage and families. Who can doubt but that it was God's design in the beginning, before the fall, to have the man and the woman united in marriage forever to live in His presence without sin, in glory, and in a state of perfect marital unity (one flesh). And since family life is the most meaningful and joyful aspect of this life, I rejoice in the knowledge that our family organization and associations will continue in heaven, only there to be coupled with perfect love eternal glory.

 

If you would like more bullet points, I will gladly provide them.

 

All the best,

Ted

Most Catholics I know, who have little exposure to Mormonism, would find expressing this list as a sign you've lost it. Gone off the deep end. Have one too many birds roosting on you antennae. I would think that just telling family members, this is what I'm doing. I still love you. I don't have a desire to be estranged from you, but that course is set by you, not me. I hope you don't feel you have no other options open to you. Etc.

[Calm]

I would avoid getting into detailed discussions unless someone not only is seeking them out, but looks like they are willing to do the homework and listening to actually understand and not just rebut your beliefs.

 

Keeping to the very basics allows people to have the time they need to adjust to the idea.

 

I have a nephew who baptised his girlfriend, then they waited a year to be married in the temple.  The father in law was a Baptist pastor and first expressed the opinion that he would rather have had my nephew rape his daughter than baptise her (understandable only in the context that the first effect would terminate at death, baptism in his view was sending her to a damnation of suffering forever so as repugnant as it sounds, it makes sense to that point of view).  However, her parents' view has soften so the harshness of the words at least is gone, I haven't heard lately how far they have reconciled.

[Garden Girl]

I will agree that a lot really are.  But this very much swings both ways.  It is the same when someone leaves the church as well.   Does shunning take place? - you bet it does.  Our family has been there and done that.      

 

Hello sdc999...

Well, I for one am sorry you are no longer a member... but that's your choice, and you have the gift of "agency" to make that choice, and I respect that...

Yes, I do understand it goes both ways... but what I was talking about is how vehement people object to the Church when they know very little about it... and my point was that our standards are just as high or higher than any other Christian group... and if people took the time to find out accurately, they would see we are bible based, worship the "correct" Jesus, etc etc.  I don't have a problem with someone disagreeing with our doctrine, but to object to the Church as strongly as they do baffles me... I find our doctrine of eternal families very beautiful... and certainly the no fornicating before marriage and absolute fidelity within marriage should not find such criticism... and being honest in our dealings with our fellow man, etc etc.  These are what we are counseled... now whether all LDS live up to these standards is an individual choice... but the doctrine/teaching is there.  So why do people object so strongly as if we're some terrible entity that is entrapping their loved ones...

 

GG

Edited June 28, 2014 by Garden Girl

[Calm]

  So why do people object so strongly as if we're some terrible entity that is entrapping their loved ones...

 

GG

Well, some apparently do because they believe even good (as in those who act good) can still go to hell if they don't have the right relationship/acceptance of Christ.

And given their reasoning, I can see why. I just don't believe their reasoning is the correct interpretation of scripture.

[teddyaware]

Most Catholics I know, who have little exposure to Mormonism, would find expressing this list as a sign you've lost it. Gone off the deep end. Have one too many birds roosting on you antennae. I would think that just telling family members, this is what I'm doing. I still love you. I don't have a desire to be estranged from you, but that course is set by you, not me. I hope you don't feel you have no other options open to you. Etc.

I believe it's quite likely that the reason why you ridicule my 10 point list is because in your heart you know what I say makes a lot of good sense and you find that a threat. So you mock and belittle, which based on past experience with you is what I would expect. At any rate, I feel I'm in good company when the same kind of mockery was leveled at Paul when he spoke the truth:

24 And as he (Paul) thus spake for himself, Festus said with a loud voice, Paul, thou art beside thyself; much learning doth make thee mad.

25 But he said, I am not mad, most noble Festus; but speak forth the words of truth and soberness.

So let's get some things straight.

1) Even though one of the personages of the one God you believe in (Jesus Christ) possesses all the fullness of the Godhead bodily, the idea that another personage of the same God would have a glorified celestial body is somehow cookoo. The fact that Christ possesses all the fullness of the Godhead bodily clearly demonstrates God is not diminished in any way by having a body.

 

2) Mocking the belief that God is the Father of our spirits is the same kind of ridicule and scorn Christ had to endure when he said God was his Father.

 

3) Mocking the belief that we lived as spirits before coming to this earth is the same kind of ridicule and scorn Christ had to endure when He said that He lived with God before His earthly sojourn.

 

4) If believing that God of love has mercifully provided there to be three kingdoms of glory in heaven, instead of one heaven and one hell, so that the vast majority of His children will eventually be saved, is whacky, I'll gladly wear that badge. I suppose it is less whacky to believe the God of love will send countless millions to suffer beyond measure in an endless hell because He's just not clever enough to figure out how to help turn his creation from their iniquities and save them.

 

5) If believing that the God of love is merciful enough to make sure that those who had no opportunity to hear and receive the Gospel in this life will have that opportunity in the world of departed spirits is an indication of a screwy mind, I'll also proudly wear that badge.  

 

6) If believing that the Bible, standing alone, is not a perfect enough guide to lead the seeker after truth into all truth is a symptom of a nutty mind, then I'll gladly allow the world to say I'm a nut.

 

7) If believing that God meant for the Church of Jesus Christ to be led by living Apostles and Prophets is a silly idea, then I'll proudly stand with Paul and say it is one of the wisest and most reasonable of ideas.

 

8 If believing that the Book of Mormon is the word of God is foolishness, then I'll hold my head up high as you and the world mock me from the windows of the large and spacious building and counted among the most foolish of all men. 

 

9) If believing that it is God's design that his holy priesthood and sealing power be restored to the earth is the product of an overwrought mind, then I plead guilty to that as well.

 

10) If believing that it's God's design that marriages and families endure forever in eternal glory is nonsense, then I plead guilty to that too.

And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us. (Romans 5:5)

Edited June 29, 2014 by teddyaware

[MorningStar]

I'm so sorry you're going through this.  Prayers for you.  My mom was in foster care when she got permission from her dad to join the church and her grandmother told her she was dead to her because she joined.   

 

I had a friend whose family was strongly against her joining, but when they saw the positive changes in her, they amazingly decided to come out for her son's baptism. 

[saemo]

I believe it's quite likely that the reason why you ridicule my 10 point list is because in your heart you know what I say makes a lot of good sense and you find that a threat. So you mock and belittle, which based on past experience with you is what I would expect. At any rate, I feel I'm in good company when the same kind of mockery was leveled at Paul when he spoke the truth:

24 And as he (Paul) thus spake for himself, Festus said with a loud voice, Paul, thou art beside thyself; much learning doth make thee mad.

25 But he said, I am not mad, most noble Festus; but speak forth the words of truth and soberness.

So let's get some things straight.

1) Even though one of the personages of the one God you believe in (Jesus Christ) possesses all the fullness of the Godhead bodily, the idea that another personage of the same God would have a glorified celestial body is somehow cookoo. The fact that Christ possesses all the fullness of the Godhead bodily clearly demonstrates God is not diminished in any way by having a body.

2) Mocking the belief that God is the Father of our spirits is the same kind of ridicule and scorn Christ had to endure when he said God was his Father.

3) Mocking the belief that we lived as spirits before coming to this earth is the same kind of ridicule and scorn Christ had to endure when He said that He lived with God before His earthly sojourn.

4) If believing that God of love has mercifully provided there to be three kingdoms of glory in heaven, instead of one heaven and one hell, so that the vast majority of His children will eventually be saved, is whacky, I'll gladly wear that badge. I suppose it is less whacky to believe the God of love will send countless millions to suffer beyond measure in an endless hell because He's just not clever enough to figure out how to help turn his creation from their iniquities and save them.

5) If believing that the God of love is merciful enough to make sure that those who had no opportunity to hear and receive the Gospel in this life will have that opportunity in the world of departed spirits is an indication of a screwy mind, I'll also proudly wear that badge.

6) If believing that the Bible, standing alone, is not a perfect enough guide to lead the seeker after truth into all truth is a symptom of a nutty mind, then I'll gladly allow the world to say I'm a nut.

7) If believing that God meant for the Church of Jesus Christ to be led by living Apostles and Prophets is a silly idea, then I'll proudly stand with Paul and say it is one of the wisest and most reasonable of ideas.

8 If believing that the Book of Mormon is the word of God is foolishness, then I'll hold my head up high as you and the world mock me from the windows of the large and spacious building and counted among the most foolish of all men.

9) If believing that it is God's design that his holy priesthood and sealing power be restored to the earth is the product of an overwrought mind, then I plead guilty to that as well.

10) If believing that it's God's design that marriages and families endure forever in eternal glory is nonsense, then I plead guilty to that too.And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us. (Romans 5:5)

I wasn't mocking or belittling you. People find beliefs not their own to be foreign. Like, believing when I receive communion I am eating the flesh of Jesus. Yeah. A lot of people would call that nuts. Of course there are reasons you have, to believe what you believe, but a list doesn't convey what those reasons are.

I don't think you realize how different LDS teachings are, is all. While I think listing them out has good intentions, I don't necessarily think the reception of them would be what you are hoping to get.

You interweave unique Mormon teachings into Biblical teachings, as though that has meaning to everyone. What is seen from the outside, is a changing of Biblical teaching. Romans 5:5 is talking about Jesus, not Mormon teaching of eternal marriage. So you apply what is being said about our hope in Christ, to a unique Mormon teaching. Makes sense to you, it doesn't to anyone else.

That is not going to win over the family of someone who is leaving to become Mormon. It only highlights what the family are against.

Edited June 29, 2014 by saemo

[MiserereNobis]

Here are some of the things I would say to family and friends if I were faced with a situation like yours:

 

[...]

 

If you would like more bullet points, I will gladly provide them.

 

All the best,

Ted

 

Very bad idea.  You present your ideas as if they are the only way someone should understand them, but you need to understand that the VAST majority of the Christian world finds Mormon doctrine... well, I'm just using this strong description so that you can really understand the gut reaction of a believing Christian... they find the LDS doctrine beyond strange and bordering on crazy.

 

(Hopefully members here understand that I try to my best to understand LDS doctrine and am just pointing out the perception of most other Christians)

 

If you try to frame the conversation in a "here are why my doctrines make sense and are better than yours" all that's going to happen is a religious argument, and pointing out the peculiarities of LDS doctrine will only increase the family's rejection of the LDS faith.

 

My two cents, from the outside.

Edited June 29, 2014 by MiserereNobis

[MiserereNobis]

All the above being said, I do agree that if after presenting my first 'I prefer to believe' bullet point the party I'm trying to have a friendly conversation with starts railing in anger, I would immediately cut off the conversation because, as we LDS are taught, it is the devil who is the author of angry contention and I wouldn't want to give the adversary the perverse satisfaction of seeing his will being done.

 

But given the whole context of the situation, having a bullet list of LDS doctrines is not a friendly conversation (again, given the context).  It is throwing fuel on the fire.  In this context, I would say the one throwing the fuel is perhaps increasing the angry contention.

 

It's too easy to blame other's reactions on the devil.  It's much harder to look primarily at our ourselves.

 

In the Catholic prayer of confession (the Confiteor), we say, "mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa"  which is "my fault, my fault, my most grievous fault."  We tap our fists on our chest for each "culpa" to remind ourselves that sin, anger, division, comes from our sinful hearts and not to look to others.

Edited June 29, 2014 by MiserereNobis

[MiserereNobis]

I believe it's quite likely that the reason why you ridicule my 10 point list is because in your heart you know what I say makes a lot of good sense and you find that a threat. So you mock and belittle, which based on past experience with you is what I would expect. At any rate, I feel I'm in good company when the same kind of mockery was leveled at Paul when he spoke the truth:

 

The problem, as I see it, with this line of thinking is that if anyone says anything crazy, and others point it out, then that person can say the fact that you think I am crazy just proves that I am not.

 

In other words, we need a more objective standard here.

 

 

 

So let's get some things straight.

 

[...]

 

 

See, now it is clear why your strategy is a bad idea.  You have already gotten into a religious argument with someone over your list.  How is this supposed to help the OP?  It will just make things worse.

 

It's one thing to ask a family to be tolerant of a decision that they feel, on a strong level, is wrong and carries with it eternal consequences.  It's even more difficult to ask them to accept that that decision is better than the one they have made.  That will surely cut ties.  If that is what you think should happen, your list is a good way to accomplish it.

 

I would think most people would agree that it is not what should happen.

Edited June 29, 2014 by MiserereNobis

[williamsmith]

I just love how the former members here, the anti's like to chip in how "the church" and it's members treated them the same when they left the LDS Faith.

Of course, they omit the big difference... that is that they are actually the ones saying bad things about the Church and it's members, not the church or it's members saying bad things about them.

 

Context is everything.  Thus, it then comes as no surprise that members would be hostile.  99.9% of the time that I myself or have seen anyone leave the church, there has been some concern, but always tolerance.  After all, it is our FAITH to tolerate all peoples personal beliefs, and treat them with respect, unlike many other faiths especially Evangelical.  The almost only time members don't treat ex-LDS with respect is because of their own disrespect toward the church and it's members and leaders.

 

LDS aren't required to respect bigotry.  So, be aware when the ex-LDS try's to claim they all experienced the same bigotry as the OP indicates in his story.  They almost certainly did not.  They distort the truth.

Edited June 29, 2014 by williamsmith

[sdc999]

I just love how the former members here, the anti's like to chip in how "the church" and it's members treated them the same when they left the LDS Faith.

Of course, they omit the big difference... that is that they are actually the ones saying bad things about the Church and it's members, not the church or it's members saying bad things about them.

 

Context is everything.  Thus, it then comes as no surprise that members would be hostile.  99.9% of the time that I myself or have seen anyone leave the church, there has been some concern, but always tolerance.  After all, it is our FAITH to tolerate all peoples personal beliefs, and treat them with respect, unlike many other faiths especially Evangelical.  The almost only time members don't treat ex-LDS with respect is because of their own disrespect toward the church and it's members and leaders.

 

LDS aren't required to respect bigotry.  So, be aware when the ex-LDS try's to claim they all experienced the same bigotry as the OP indicates in his story.  They almost certainly did not.  They distort the truth.

What an ignorant statement.  Essentially, all exmormons are liars.  Did I get that right?    So, my sister in law tells my mother in law that we have left the church.  My wife wanted to tell he mother in her own time and way because she knew it would be hurtful.  Mother in law then calls me and tells me how evil I am and doesn't speak to me for nearly 7 months or have much at all to do with her grandkids.     Wow,  saying 'hello' when I answered her call must have just been so agressive towards the church.  Who knew? 

[teddyaware]

I wasn't mocking or belittling you. People find beliefs not their own to be foreign. Like, believing when I receive communion I am eating the flesh of Jesus. Yeah. A lot of people would call that nuts. Of course there are reasons you have, to believe what you believe, but a list doesn't convey what those reasons are.

I don't think you realize how different LDS teachings are, is all. While I think listing them out has good intentions, I don't necessarily think the reception of them would be what you are hoping to get.

You interweave unique Mormon teachings into Biblical teachings, as though that has meaning to everyone. What is seen from the outside, is a changing of Biblical teaching. Romans 5:5 is talking about Jesus, not Mormon teaching of eternal marriage. So you apply what is being said about our hope in Christ, to a unique Mormon teaching. Makes sense to you, it doesn't to anyone else.

That is not going to win over the family of someone who is leaving to become Mormon. It only highlights what the family are against.

As I counseled in an earlier post on this very same thread: If the original poster were to decide to utilize my list of 10 LDS doctrines in his discussions with his family, if at any point in those discussion (including on the very first bullet point) things ceased to be cordial and started to get contentious, that he should without delay terminate the discussion immediately. My intention was not to have the gentleman cram the list down somebody's throat, but only to use it as long as the discussion remained friendly. I guess this an example of what can happen when a participant on a thread doesn't read every post on that thread. So you've been grumbling over a mute point.

Edited June 29, 2014 by teddyaware

[teddyaware]

The problem, as I see it, with this line of thinking is that if anyone says anything crazy, and others point it out, then that person can say the fact that you think I am crazy just proves that I am not.

 

In other words, we need a more objective standard here.

 

 

 

 

See, now it is clear why your strategy is a bad idea.  You have already gotten into a religious argument with someone over your list.  How is this supposed to help the OP?  It will just make things worse.

 

It's one thing to ask a family to be tolerant of a decision that they feel, on a strong level, is wrong and carries with it eternal consequences.  It's even more difficult to ask them to accept that that decision is better than the one they have made.  That will surely cut ties.  If that is what you think should happen, your list is a good way to accomplish it.

 

I would think most people would agree that it is not what should happen.

I will now respond to you by reposting what I just posted in response to saemo:

"As I counseled in an earlier post on this very same thread: If the original poster were to decide to utilize my list of 10 LDS doctrines in his discussions with his family, if at any point in those discussion (including on the very first bullet point) things ceased to be cordial and started to get contentious, that he should without delay terminate the discussion immediately. My intention was not to have the gentleman cram the list down somebody's throat, but only to use it as long as the discussion remained friendly. I guess this an example of what can happen when a participant on a thread doesn't read every post on that thread. So you've been grumbling over a mute point."

Edited June 29, 2014 by teddyaware

[sdc999]

As I counseled in an earlier post on this very same thread: If the original poster were to decide to utilize my list of 10 LDS doctrines in his discussions with his family, if at any point in those discussion (including on the very first bullet point) things ceased to be cordial and started to get contentious, that he should terminate the discussion immediately. My intention was not to have the gentleman cram the list down somebodies throat, but only to use it as long as the discussion remained friendly. I guess this an example of what can happen when a participant on a thread doesn't read every post on that thread. So you've been grumbling over a mute point.

Just think of how well the conversation would have gone if he would have started with in with them?  It sounds like it went south before he could even get to number one.   I think your points would be fine in two scenarios.  1.  would you like to know why I believe and attend the Mormon church?   or 2.  Why do you attend and believe in the Mormon church?   Beyond that, I thing it has great potential just to be a Ford/Chevy debate.  I prefer to drive my Ford because (and then point out everything Chevy doesn't do to the Chevy driver).  That usually (not always) gets the Chevy owner riled up a bit and then it becomes a peeing match of which is better.