Was Polyandry Really Polyandry? And Does It Have Scriptural Precedent?

[omni]

There is an understandable tendency to view sealings in absolute and unalterable ways.  

 

However, the notion of temple divorces should lend some flexibility to this notion--if an eternal marriage can be unsealed on earth and recognized as such in heaven, then why can't it be unsealed in heaven?

 

Besides, for those of us who are the product of illegitimate births (resulting from adultery or promiscuity) at various branches of the family tree, we are faced with the question of to whom we should proxy seal wives and children. For example, my grandfather had a natural father that was different from his legal father, and so when my older brother inquired as to which of the fathers to proxy seal my grandfather, he was told to seal him to both and let God work it out in the hereafter.

 

It makes sense to me.

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

 

While I personally agree with your position, I still have not seen any scriptural or prophetic statements in support of it.

[cdowis]

Even Hales reaches the conclusion that Joseph was intimate with women who were legally married to other men.

Keep your head in the sand if you prefer. It probably helps you hear more of your own voice. That's probably the only way you'll be able to listen to an opinion you agree with.

 

I have made a formal CFR, not arguing with you over the issue.  If this is your personal opinion, then you can simply quote yourself, or if you are quoting the opinion of someone else, then we will cheerfully disagree. 

 

So, tell us whether you are able to respond to the CFR, or you are merely giving an opinion.  "Hiding my head in the sand" is a childish response over a very serious accusation.

 

I will  give you the last word on this CFR request.  I hope you will give an adult response.

Edited May 13, 2014 by cdowis

[thesometimesaint]

You are playing with definitions.  At issue here is whether it was sexual polyandry.  And Bathsheba was not married to both men, that is why David had her husband killed.  It is called an affair not polyandry.  And you will need to name the wives of Solomon who were still living with another husband.  Do we really need these kinds of rabbit holes?

 

King David took the wives of King Saul. King Solomon took the wives of King David. Whether there was sexual purity between them is irrelevant.

[thesometimesaint]

Even Hales reaches the conclusion that Joseph was intimate with women who were legally married to other men.

Keep your head in the sand if you prefer. It probably helps you hear more of your own voice. That's probably the only way you'll be able to listen to an opinion you agree with.

 

That is an assumption. Produce the child. Every DNA test those far preformed has come back negative.

[Calm]

 the notion of temple divorces 

No such thing as a "temple divorce", it is a cancelation of a temple sealing (and only removes the sealing completely for the one person involved, the spouse's blessings from the sealing such as any children still sealed to her/him as well as his/her covenant with God remains intact).  I had that drilled into me by someone who should know…just saying FYI, not accusing anyone of anything...

[Calm]

As for whether there are scriptural examples of polyandry, what about Judah's daughter-in-law, Tamar, who consecutively married three of Judah's sons? (See HERE). 

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Is there any indication that anywhere it has been taught that without a sealing, consecutive marriages for men and women are the same as marriages at the same time?

 

I can see where a woman is sealed to one man who is living and living with another being considered polyandrous.  I don't see how a woman being sealed to a dead man while living with a legal husband, not sealed is considered polyandrous.  In fact, I've seen significant argument that it is not and the woman will either go with the sealed husband or if sealed to the other husband when all are dead, she must choose.

Edited May 13, 2014 by calmoriah

[Calm]

King David took the wives of King Saul. King Solomon took the wives of King David. Whether there was sexual purity between them is irrelevant.

Was Saul dead or living at the time?  Was David living or dead at the time?  Is there any indication of multiple sealings with any other them?

[thesometimesaint]

Was Saul dead or living at the time?  Was David living or dead at the time?  Is there any indication of multiple sealings with any other them?

 

The Scriptures aren't real clear on that. David seems to have turned over his kingdom to his son Solomon during his lifetime. So either is possible. I don't know of multiple Sealings for them. Again the Scriptures don't say specifically.

[cdowis]

That is an assumption. Produce the child. Every DNA test those far preformed has come back negative.

 

Asking for DNA evidence is "putting your head in the sand" when you have Hale's conclusions as proof.

 

Just a matter of connecting a few dots scattered here and there, with a few assumptions to paste it all together.

Edited May 14, 2014 by cdowis

[Calm]

Since when do assumptions qualify as proof?

[Tacenda]

Since when do assumptions qualify as proof?

Ditto, and since when is someone's own words about relations with Joseph producing a daughter, less then a stranger's assumption?

I'm related to Josephine's posterity...I have 5 nephews and 2 ex brother & sister in laws, who are Sessions and were married to my brother and sister. Their relative, who is addicticted to genealogy, showed me the info.

Edited May 14, 2014 by Tacenda

[Calm]

What is the family consensus?is she Joseph'sbiological Daughter or adopted through the sealing covenant only?

[canard78]

I have made a formal CFR, not arguing with you over the issue. If this is your personal opinion, then you can simply quote yourself, or if you are quoting the opinion of someone else, then we will cheerfully disagree.

So, tell us whether you are able to respond to the CFR, or you are merely giving an opinion. "Hiding my head in the sand" is a childish response over a very serious accusation.

I will give you the last word on this CFR request. I hope you will give an adult response.

The CFR is already answered. See post 2 in this thread.

Based on available evidence Brian Hales reaches the conclusion that Joseph was intimate with 3 women who had legal husbands. He even proposes that Josephine is Joseph's daughter. I agree with his conclusion. Hales' view was that it was not sexual polyandry because the relationships were not overlapping. Given there were legal marriages still valid and in place with at least the first two I personally disagree.

I don't have to quote myself. If you follow the link in the second post you will see that I am quoting 19th members in good standing. A woman who says her daughter is Joseph's is probably aware of how a woman gets pregnant.

 

ETA:

 

Here are the quotes from Hales:

 

Looking at the timeline, we find that Windsor and Sylvia married in 1838. She conceives three children, then he’s excommunicated and that’s when they separate. It’s not a legal divorce, but she is then sealed to Joseph in a marriage that I argue would have superseded the legal marriage anyway, which would curtail any conjugality between Sylvia and Windsor. Josephine is conceived. Joseph Smith is killed. Windsor is rebaptized and then they come back together and the legal marriage is still intact.

 

 

And this:

 

The second case of the fourteen is Mary Heron. She will be probably be new to most here because the only people that even mention her are Quinn in the back of one of his publications, and she’s also mentioned briefly by Compton. It’s a little complicated and we don’t have a lot of information. But Joseph Ellis Johnson was involved in an adulterous relationship. His membership status was discussed in a council meeting September 2nd, 1850 in Salt Lake City, Brigham Young presiding. In his defense, Joseph E. Johnson reported that “He was familiar with the first frigging [slang for sexual relations] – that was done in his house with his mother-in-law by Joseph.” Joseph E Johnson’s mother-in-law was Mary Heron Snider. Despite extensive research, I have found no additional evidence linking Mary Heron Snider with Joseph Smith.

 

John Snider, Mary Heron’s legal husband, was on a mission to England from March 1842 to January of 1843. Joseph E. Johnson did not build his house in Ramus, Illinois until 1843, so to say that Joseph sent him on a mission so that he could have this rendezvous and marry Mary Heron is not supported. But there are several interpretations that are possible, depending upon what you are willing to assume because we have so little data.

 

The first is a willingness to assume that Joseph E. Johnson was accurate and accurately quoted. Joseph E. Johnson was Benjamin F.’s brother. They were a very prominent family in the church. I think he’s telling the truth. I believe it. I’m willing to make this assumption. But, the next assumptions you are willing to make are very important. Because if you assume there was no plural sealing, that Joseph is just involved with Mary Heron, without any kind of a marriage, then it’s adultery. If you want to assume there was a plural sealing and that she was also having conjugal relations with her legal husband, then it’s sexual polyandry and this is what Michael Quinn is promoting and believes happened.

 

 

http://www.fairmormon.org/perspectives/fair-conferences/2012-fair-conference/2012-joseph-smiths-sexual-polyandry-and-the-emperors-new-clothes-on-closer-inspection-what-do-we-find

 

Hales lists further women who he proposes Joseph was intimate with.

 

You formally "called for references" - I've given you references. If you don't like the references or if you disagree with the conclusions of the references (or my conclusions from the references) I've no problem with that.

 

If you're "calling for indisputable proof" then you'll be disappointed. Given we're dealing with history you're not going to get it on this topic. 

Edited May 14, 2014 by canard78

[Tacenda]

What is the family consensus?is she Joseph'sbiological Daughter or adopted through the sealing covenant only?

I know they all aren't active in my nephew's and ex in law's family. And I've never discussed it with them. It's only since we've been discussing Silvia Porter Session's daughter Josephine, that I asked this relative of theirs that posts regularly on FB, genealogy stuff. Then decided to message her about it. I guess Sylvia is my nephew's Grandpa Session's, 2nd great grand Aunt, I will have to ask her if it shows it's biological or adoption through sealing, good question! Edited May 14, 2014 by Tacenda

[BCSpace]

Even Hales reaches the conclusion that Joseph was intimate with women who were legally married to other men.

Keep your head in the sand if you prefer. It probably helps you hear more of your own voice. That's probably the only way you'll be able to listen to an opinion you agree with.

 

I have made a formal CFR, not arguing with you over the issue.  If this is your personal opinion, then you can simply quote yourself, or if you are quoting the opinion of someone else, then we will cheerfully disagree.

 

 

 

What Hales has said:

 

 

The answer to the question of whether Joseph Smith practiced sexual polyandry is “no.” There is no reliable evidence to support it, and his documented teachings and practices confirm that he would have considered it to be sexually immoral. For example, all known references to sexual polyandry by Church leaders (including three by Joseph Smith) condemn it as adultery. In addition, he taught that a “time and eternity” sealing would supersede a legal matrimony (causing it to be “done away”), so at no time could a woman have two husbands because the legal marriage would be dissolved in God’s eyes.

 

Admittedly, unanswered questions still exist, but nothing in the historical record supports that it would be acceptable for a woman to have two husbands at the same time. Despite multiple authors who have portrayed the situation differently, there is no evidence to support that Joseph Smith experienced conjugal visits with a woman who was also having sexual relations with her legal husband.³ 

 

http://josephsmithspolygamy.org/faq/sexual-polyandry/

 

 

I wouldn't call it polyandry in any case because in the broadest sense, the word includes the notion of sexual relations and all the evidence points away from it in addition to the fact that it's against the doctrine that was extant then.  Another reason I wouldn't is because the sexual narrative being manufactured by the anti Mormon crowd and using the term 'polyandry' keeps that fire going.

 

[canard78]

What Hales has said:

 

(subquote: In addition, he taught that a “time and eternity” sealing would supersede a legal matrimony (causing it to be “done away”), so at no time could a woman have two husbands because the legal marriage would be dissolved in God’s eyes.)

 

I wouldn't call it polyandry in any case because in the broadest sense, the word includes the notion of sexual relations and all the evidence points away from it in addition to the fact that it's against the doctrine that was extant then.  Another reason I wouldn't is because the sexual narrative being manufactured by the anti Mormon crowd and using the term 'polyandry' keeps that fire going.

 

And that's where the final conclusion differs. If a man is legally married to one woman and then sealed for time and eternity to another (while the first husband is still living) then I would consider that polyandry. Given some of those women continued living with their first husband after Joseph's death (or returned to him) then it would suggest that they still considered their relationship valid.

 

I appreciate Hales' references, I simply don't reach the same conclusion.

[BCSpace]

I appreciate Hales' references, I simply don't reach the same conclusion.

 

I think it best to assume JS lived by the same doctrine he revealed. 

[SeekingUnderstanding]

I think it best to assume JS lived by the same doctrine he revealed. 

There is enough ambiguity in D&C 132 to allow for polyandry. Take verses 41 and 42 (quoted earlier by Juliann):

 

 41 And as ye have asked concerning adultery, verily, verily, I say unto you, if a man receiveth a wife in the new and everlasting covenant, and if she be with another man, and I have not appointed unto her by the holy anointing, she hath committed adultery and shall be destroyed.

 42 If she be not in the new and everlasting covenant, and she be with another man, she has committed adultery.

This certainly seems to imply that if she is with another man appointed unto her it is not adultery.

[wenglund]

No such thing as a "temple divorce", it is a cancelation of a temple sealing (and only removes the sealing completely for the one person involved, the spouse's blessings from the sealing such as any children still sealed to her/him as well as his/her covenant with God remains intact).  I had that drilled into me by someone who should know…just saying FYI, not accusing anyone of anything...

 

While you make a good point, I think the term is useful for verbal economy in informal settings, though perhaps not in a legal or scholastic or technical or fundamentalist setting. What is important to me is the meaning conveyed. And, I trust that the readers here correctly understood my meaning. But, if not, your clarification should compensate for the deficiency.

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-. 

[SeekingUnderstanding]

While you make a good point, I think the term is useful for verbal economy in informal settings, though perhaps not in a legal or scholastic or technical or fundamentalist setting. What is important to me is the meaning conveyed. And, I trust that the readers here correctly understood my meaning. But, if not, your clarification should compensate for the deficiency.

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-. 

I will have to remember this the next time you talk about the violence being done to the definition of marriage by same sex marriage. 

Edited May 14, 2014 by SeekingUnderstanding

[Tacenda]

What is the family consensus?is she Joseph'sbiological Daughter or adopted through the sealing covenant only?

 

Cal, this is her message back to me, she is quite amazing with her research, I don't know her references, it may have some different information then we've seen.  She didn't mention how it is listed on the records..... 

 

 

 

Hi ****! I haven't been able to find anything that really "proves" Josephine was Joseph Smith's illegitimate daughter with Sylvia Sessions Porter other than her own account as follows. Also, I know there are people working on DNA matching with Joseph Smith but that is through the Y-DNA or male DNA. Here is Josephine's story: Sylvia Sessions left Maine for Zion (Missouri) with her parents, Patty and David, in June of 1837. While in Missouri, Sylvia met and married Windsor Lyon. Sylvia’s Mother, Patty, wrote about the wedding in her journal, “Sylvia was married to Windsor P. Lyon, Joseph Smith performed the ceremony...The next day the Prophet was there and a good time it was.” Sylvia, and husband Windsor, left Missouri for Nauvoo in February of 1839. There, Windsor established a mercantile business, selling “Dry Goods, Groceries, Crockery, Glass, and Hardware, Drugs, and Medicines, Paints and Dry Stuffs.” By this time, they were the parents of two children. Sylvia married Joseph Smith on February 8, 1842, when she was 23 years old. It is uncertain if her husband, Windsor, was aware of the marriage, but she did continue to live with him. Brigham Young taught that “if the woman preferred a man higher in authority, and he is willing to take her and her husband gives her up-there is no Bill of divorce required...it is right in the sight of God”. Brigham also explained that the woman, “...would be in a higher glory”. This may help shed light on Sylvia’s complex marriage arrangement. 10 months later, on December 24th, Joseph’s journal mentions a visit to his wife, Sylvia, who was giving birth to her third child: “Walked with Sec[retary Willard Richards] to see Sister Lyons who was sick. Her baby died 30 minutes before [we] arrived”. Sylvia had lost two of her three children in death. On September 18, 1843, another of Joseph’s visits to Sylvia is recorded by William Clayton, “Joseph and I rode out to borrow money, drank wine at Sister Lyons P.M. I got $50 of Sister Lyons and paid it to D.D. Yearsly.” On January 27, 1844 her only surviving child, Philofreen, also died. At this time, Sylvia was eight months pregnant with her fourth child, Josephine Rosetta Lyon. Josephine later wrote, “Just prior to my mothers death in 1882 she called me to her bedside and told me that her days were numbered and before she passed away from mortality she desired to tell me something which she had kept as an entire secret from me and from all others but which she now desired to communicate to me. She then told me that I was the daughter of the Prophet Joseph Smith

[Calm]

Thanks, that was interesting.

[canard78]

Cal, this is her message back to me, she is quite amazing with her research, I don't know her references, it may have some different information then we've seen. She didn't mention how it is listed on the records.....

Hi ****! I haven't been able to find anything that really "proves" Josephine was Joseph Smith's illegitimate daughter with Sylvia Sessions Porter other than her own account as follows. Also, I know there are people working on DNA matching with Joseph Smith but that is through the Y-DNA or male DNA. Here is Josephine's story: Sylvia Sessions left Maine for Zion (Missouri) with her parents, Patty and David, in June of 1837. While in Missouri, Sylvia met and married Windsor Lyon. Sylvia’s Mother, Patty, wrote about the wedding in her journal, “Sylvia was married to Windsor P. Lyon, Joseph Smith performed the ceremony...The next day the Prophet was there and a good time it was.” Sylvia, and husband Windsor, left Missouri for Nauvoo in February of 1839. There, Windsor established a mercantile business, selling “Dry Goods, Groceries, Crockery, Glass, and Hardware, Drugs, and Medicines, Paints and Dry Stuffs.” By this time, they were the parents of two children. Sylvia married Joseph Smith on February 8, 1842, when she was 23 years old. It is uncertain if her husband, Windsor, was aware of the marriage, but she did continue to live with him. Brigham Young taught that “if the woman preferred a man higher in authority, and he is willing to take her and her husband gives her up-there is no Bill of divorce required...it is right in the sight of God”. Brigham also explained that the woman, “...would be in a higher glory”. This may help shed light on Sylvia’s complex marriage arrangement. 10 months later, on December 24th, Joseph’s journal mentions a visit to his wife, Sylvia, who was giving birth to her third child: “Walked with Sec[retary Willard Richards] to see Sister Lyons who was sick. Her baby died 30 minutes before [we] arrived”. Sylvia had lost two of her three children in death. On September 18, 1843, another of Joseph’s visits to Sylvia is recorded by William Clayton, “Joseph and I rode out to borrow money, drank wine at Sister Lyons P.M. I got $50 of Sister Lyons and paid it to D.D. Yearsly.” On January 27, 1844 her only surviving child, Philofreen, also died. At this time, Sylvia was eight months pregnant with her fourth child, Josephine Rosetta Lyon. Josephine later wrote, “Just prior to my mothers death in 1882 she called me to her bedside and told me that her days were numbered and before she passed away from mortality she desired to tell me something which she had kept as an entire secret from me and from all others but which she now desired to communicate to me. She then told me that I was the daughter of the Prophet Joseph Smith

That's some great information.

If you look at the link in the second post of this thread there's a link to a transcript of a talk by Brian Hales.

In it he disputes the 1842 marriage date and instead replaces it with an 1843 date. It might be interesting to share it with you family history relative and see what she thinks (you could just link to the FairMormon page, no need to link to this thread).

[Anijen]

I haven't read any of this thread and only this last page, but  Ugo Perego has done extensive DNA analysis and has yet to find any descendant of Joesph other than with Emma.

[canard78]

I haven't read any of this thread and only this last page, but Ugo Perego has done extensive DNA analysis and has yet to find any descendant of Joesph other than with Emma.

If you have a quick look at Tacenda's recent post it talks about testing only being done on YDNA (male). Would that have an effect on Josephine? I don't know enough about the research so would welcome any suggested sources to finding out more.