The Dark Side Of The Doctrine Of Eternal Familes

[saemo]

Just my opinion, but I think it is a mistake to talk of the LDS teaching on suffering. There is the Catholic teaching and everything else, although certain elements of the Catholic view might be compatible with other Christian approaches to the subject.

 

Our belief in purgatory stems from the idea that there is a distinction to be made between the temporal and eternal punishment for sins. Christ paid all of the eternal punishment. He paid for sins which only God could pay for. But the "results" for sin, in a form of suffering remain. Catholics believe that we have an important decision to make about how to respond to suffering. We can be resigned to these just sufferings and offer them back to God or we can do many things short of that, even becoming angry. I fear I waste a lot of chances to suffer well. I think I need to cultivate the habit of always picturing "bad things" as opportunities. They can be very small, like how your in-law annoys you but you smile and say nothing for Christ's sake. Or for me, being mad at somebody cutting me off and not blowing my air horn and riding their tail. Better yet, be thankful for them for giving me an opportunity to be forgiving, as God is forgiving of my faults and sins. I am a work in progress for sure. It seems to me like unless I learn to offer up the little sufferings well and habitually, I'll probably fail when the big ones start coming.

 

So here is where purgatory comes in too. The sufferings we atone for in this life can shorten our purgatory in the next. This idea adds another layer to the practice of suffering. We can also take upon ourselves "sufferings" that we more or less choose, as opposed to that kidney stone I had last year. This is the purpose of fasting, almsgiving and other kinds of voluntary penances, as we call them. In our own way, we think God also allows us to imitate Christ by offering our sufferings for others, (loved ones, political or religious leaders, Hollywood stars, heh.) besides ourselves. It is considered an act of charity and we are promised that such offerings are pleasing and acceptable to God. In these ways, we hold that there is potentially great, maybe even infinite, value in all suffering, if only we made as good use of it as did our brother Jesus. Some of you may have heard of the three parts of the Catholic Church: The Church Militant, The Church Triumphant, and the Church Suffering representing the kingdom of heaven as manifested on earth, in heaven, and in purgatory (a part of hell, but temporary)

 

I don't think anybody else teaches anything close, whether Mormon or not. I don't know of any Protestants that have anything on the Mormons in this area. Maybe Spammer could say if what I presented seems to parallel anything in Orthodoxy. 

 

This is Social Hall and off topic at that. Otherwise I might defend the position. In this case I think I will just state it for the record.

I was thinking at first that GG saying she put suffering at the feet of Jesus, she was saying something similar to offer it up. But no, I think she is saying something very different.

[Garden Girl]

I was thinking at first that GG saying she put suffering at the feet of Jesus, she was saying something similar to offer it up. But no, I think she is saying something very different.

 

I don't always articulate well... what I was saying is in line with Calmoriah's post #73 above...

 

 

GG

[thesometimesaint]

You said, The LDS teaching is that when we repent the atonement covers any suffering.

 

I would say, the atonement covers any sin. Atonement and repentance of sins goes together. The atonement is for our sins.

 

After thinking on it I get what you are saying. Though I would think "covers any suffering", "when we repent", means suffering for sins. So there is that. I don't believe someone is childless because of sin.

 

 

Thanks for explaining.

 

The Atonement covers every sin, condition, bad thing, error, misunderstanding, even death itself, that everyone, everywhere from before the foundations of this world, has happened throughout the eternities forever. All we have to do is avail ourselves of it.

[Calm]

Just my opinion, but I think it is a mistake to talk of the LDS teaching on suffering. There is the Catholic teaching and everything else, although certain elements of the Catholic view might be compatible with other Christian approaches to the subject.

Our belief in purgatory stems from the idea that there is a distinction to be made between the temporal and eternal punishment for sins. Christ paid all of the eternal punishment. He paid for sins which only God could pay for. But the "results" for sin, in a form of suffering remain. Catholics believe that we have an important decision to make about how to respond to suffering. We can be resigned to these just sufferings and offer them back to God or we can do many things short of that, even becoming angry. I fear I waste a lot of chances to suffer well. I think I need to cultivate the habit of always picturing "bad things" as opportunities. They can be very small, like how your in-law annoys you but you smile and say nothing for Christ's sake. Or for me, being mad at somebody cutting me off and not blowing my air horn and riding their tail. Better yet, be thankful for them for giving me an opportunity to be forgiving, as God is forgiving of my faults and sins. I am a work in progress for sure. It seems to me like unless I learn to offer up the little sufferings well and habitually, I'll probably fail when the big ones start coming.

So here is where purgatory comes in too. The sufferings we atone for in this life can shorten our purgatory in the next. This idea adds another layer to the practice of suffering. We can also take upon ourselves "sufferings" that we more or less choose, as opposed to that kidney stone I had last year. This is the purpose of fasting, almsgiving and other kinds of voluntary penances, as we call them. In our own way, we think God also allows us to imitate Christ by offering our sufferings for others, (loved ones, political or religious leaders, Hollywood stars, heh.) besides ourselves. It is considered an act of charity and we are promised that such offerings are pleasing and acceptable to God. In these ways, we hold that there is potentially great, maybe even infinite, value in all suffering, if only we made as good use of it as did our brother Jesus. Some of you may have heard of the three parts of the Catholic Church: The Church Militant, The Church Triumphant, and the Church Suffering representing the kingdom of heaven as manifested on earth, in heaven, and in purgatory (a part of hell, but temporary)

I don't think anybody else teaches anything close, whether Mormon or not. I don't know of any Protestants that have anything on the Mormons in this area. Maybe Spammer could say if what I presented seems to parallel anything in Orthodoxy.

This is Social Hall and off topic at that. Otherwise I might defend the position. In this case I think I will just state it for the record.

The closest teaching to me sounds like how we describe in part enduring to the end, but it is possible the nuances make a significant difference. Edited May 6, 2014 by calmoriah

[saemo]

I don't always articulate well... what I was saying is in line with Calmoriah's post #73 above...

GG

Thanks. You probably articulate just fine. Things have to make sense to me, and if I'm serious about a subject, I poke until it does. Otherwise, if I'm not serious, I ignore and move on or maybe poke fun. I don't mean to be irritating.

I think the Catholic teaching that 3DOP described and yours and Calmoriah's have similar approaches to Jesus, in that, a sense of surrender. There is a large difference in how we view suffering, but like 3DOP said, there is Catholic and everyone else. The Catholic teaching on suffering was one of the major attractants of Catholicism for me. I was at a very difficult point in my life and needed to know that God not only suffers for us, but with us, as one of us. The Cross is the evidence.

Pick up our cross and follow Him. One of our Deacons once posed the rhetorical question, where did Jesus take His cross after He picked it up. So as 3DOP said, there is redemptive value in suffering, which is counter intuitive for our society.

Catholics look suffering head on, and don't engage in escapism, which is something that I need. I don't do so well with escapism, but was once very good at it. So, that makes me think I of prayer, as described in Pope Benedict XVI's encyclical, Spe Salve. Good thoughts for a late hour.

So back to Spammer, and what I said about bringing his wife to the peace of Christ, which means to me, an understanding that she is not suffering alone. She is not walking the halls of her church alone. God is with her, as he is there for all of us. Spammer, you are not her Savior, but her beloved companion and husband. Lead her to Him.

Thanks again.

Edited May 7, 2014 by saemo

[Storm Rider]

Just my opinion, but I think it is a mistake to talk of the LDS teaching on suffering. There is the Catholic teaching and everything else, although certain elements of the Catholic view might be compatible with other Christian approaches to the subject.

 

Our belief in purgatory stems from the idea that there is a distinction to be made between the temporal and eternal punishment for sins. Christ paid all of the eternal punishment. He paid for sins which only God could pay for. But the "results" for sin, in a form of suffering remain. Catholics believe that we have an important decision to make about how to respond to suffering. We can be resigned to these just sufferings and offer them back to God or we can do many things short of that, even becoming angry. I fear I waste a lot of chances to suffer well. I think I need to cultivate the habit of always picturing "bad things" as opportunities. They can be very small, like how your in-law annoys you but you smile and say nothing for Christ's sake. Or for me, being mad at somebody cutting me off and not blowing my air horn and riding their tail. Better yet, be thankful for them for giving me an opportunity to be forgiving, as God is forgiving of my faults and sins. I am a work in progress for sure. It seems to me like unless I learn to offer up the little sufferings well and habitually, I'll probably fail when the big ones start coming.

 

So here is where purgatory comes in too. The sufferings we atone for in this life can shorten our purgatory in the next. This idea adds another layer to the practice of suffering. We can also take upon ourselves "sufferings" that we more or less choose, as opposed to that kidney stone I had last year. This is the purpose of fasting, almsgiving and other kinds of voluntary penances, as we call them. In our own way, we think God also allows us to imitate Christ by offering our sufferings for others, (loved ones, political or religious leaders, Hollywood stars, heh.) besides ourselves. It is considered an act of charity and we are promised that such offerings are pleasing and acceptable to God. In these ways, we hold that there is potentially great, maybe even infinite, value in all suffering, if only we made as good use of it as did our brother Jesus. Some of you may have heard of the three parts of the Catholic Church: The Church Militant, The Church Triumphant, and the Church Suffering representing the kingdom of heaven as manifested on earth, in heaven, and in purgatory (a part of hell, but temporary)

 

I don't think anybody else teaches anything close, whether Mormon or not. I don't know of any Protestants that have anything on the Mormons in this area. Maybe Spammer could say if what I presented seems to parallel anything in Orthodoxy. 

 

This is Social Hall and off topic at that. Otherwise I might defend the position. In this case I think I will just state it for the record.

 

I don't these these ideas are foreign to LDS; however, I think their emphasis is. This is one of the areas that LDS can learn form our Catholic brothers and sisters and gain an even deeper understanding and appreciation for trials, suffering, and tribulations. I don't view truth as being owned by an individual, group, church, or faith. Truth has value when shared and learned.  As disciples we need to be willing to teach those who seek and learn from those willing to teach. 

[EllenMaksoud]

I'll try to keep this very brief. My wife and I married in the SLC temple. I left the church in spirit a few years later and left it officially ten years after that. The interim for me was spent in atheism, rearing our kids, regular church attendance with the family, and simultaneous maintenance of the illusion that I was a believer - put another way, I lied to church leaders, members, and my own children about what I really believed. I accepted church callings, took part in church charitable works, and helped my wife teach the kids things I did not believe. The years of duplicity took its toll on me and culminated into a gradual, sure fall into extreme anger and bitterness. I only began climbing out of that pit after turning back to Christ and being baptized into a different church. I went public with this information and everything changed for my wife. Although I had begun to heal, my decision to go public with my apostasy and quit lying deeply wounded her and disrupted the family harmony. I admit my culpability. She didn't bargain on a temple marriage that would culminate in a part-member reality. But she also didn't bargain on encountering the dark side of teachings about eternal families.

 

The doctrine is beautiful, but the negative spiritual and, especially, social implications for families where one spouse falls away are stark. It's bad enough for my poor wife to know that in the eyes of the church we're no longer married eternally. What's worse (for her) is the overnight change in how she is treated by church members when my apostasy becomes general knowledge in the ward. We have lived in four wards since I left the church (including the ward we were in when I did the dirty deed), and the result is always the same. In every ward, the members are genuinely friendly, open, and caring towards me, until they find out why I won't be giving any talks or accepting any church callings or attending elder's quorum. People are still nice, but the nature of our interactions are changed. Awkwardness and discomfort permeates everything. Gradually, people begin to keep their distance. It's my fault, since I don't participate in any meetings or activities at all except for the occasional sacrament mtg and gospel doctrine, and only when my wife is there with me. Personally, I'm fine with people avoiding me like the plague. I don't care. But it really bothers me when my wife is suddenly treated very differently, just because members, especially the relief society sisters, find out about me. That's when the dark side of mormon teachings about eternal families begins to show itself. The sister missionaries never, ever visit us - until people find out about me. That's when they take a sudden interest in my wife. In every ward, when the truth is known, several sisters ask my wife such things as "Doesn't your husband love you anymore?" "How can he do that?" "Do you think he had/is having an affair?" "Doesn't he want to be married to you forever?" This happens in every single ward and it kills her. She thinks, no matter how well-meaning, she's talked about behind her back. I heard church members talking about apostates and their families all of my life, all 40+ years of my active church attendance, so I'm sure she's not wrong. The fact that missionaries suddenly start showing up at our home just adds to my wife's sense that our family is a "project" for the ward. All my wife wants is to be treated exactly like every other sister in the ward is treated. But it's my belief that the gossip results from the insidious (to me) belief that she will only be married to me in the highest level of the celestial kingdom if I repent, am rebaptized, and return to my family priesthood duties as husband and father. This is something I will never do. That means at death our marriage will be sundered and my wife will be given to another man, if she has hopes to be exalted. In my mind, that easily explains the pity party always shown to my wife, and the vicious gossip about me and my alleged infidelities and/or lack of love for her, when people find out about me. It also explains why hearing mention of eternal families at church (which is every single week) makes her very sad.

 

All of this is complicated by my older son's refusal to attend church anymore. He's 15, very smart and a 4.0 honors student, and of an age to make up his own mind about what he believes about spiritual matters. I don't deny my influence on him, though it is never intended to destroy his belief in the church (despite what some of my family members have told me). I've encouraged him to read the Book of Mormon for himself and pray. He says no thanks. The ward gossip my wife hears about me, and her reasonable conviction that she's a project, means that she has no desire to go to church with only part of her family and stick out like a sore thumb. It understandably makes her sad. The commentary and looks she gets infuriates her. So she's simultaneously sad and angry on Sundays. It also understandably makes her fear having to sit there knowing what people are thinking about me and taking pity on her. So it's a battle every Sunday to get the entire family to church with my wife. Sundays pretty much suck in our house. My poor wife. It's not enough that I'm there with her at church. She's treated completely differently now that I'm out of the closet about my beliefs. The fact that I'm no longer a member is seemingly more important to church members than the fact that I'm a Christian man who loves my family with all my heart.

 

IMO, all of this negativity that my wife experiences - the gossip about me, the pity, the project - is directly caused by the belief that salvation in the highest heaven requires an eternal marriage. It's my belief that no matter how wonderful and beautiful the idea of eternal families is, the doctrine can ruin part-member families like mine through the negative influence and behavior of church members who, no matter how well meaning, manifest pity, make families like mine a project, and gossip about those like me who leave the church. It's my belief that church members can't help it. The church is true. Joseph Smith is a prophet. People like me never have a good reason to leave and violate my temple covenants. I get it. I do support my wife's participation in church but it's obvious to me that she's being slowly pushed away by the behavior of church members. I see it happening. If she wasn't so obviously unhappy about it, it would make me very happy for church members to push her away and have the chance that she will one day join me and leave the church. But I'm not happy at all because she loves going to church and she's so unhappy at feeling like a fish out of water at church. My poor wife. This is the dark side of Mormon teaching. Teachings about eternal families are only good and healthy for families where both spouses are active, believing members.  Maybe someone in this forum has connections on high and can say something or share my experience. This needs to be a conference talk, to put an end to this kind of shaming and gossip. It can be Part 2 to Uchtdorf's effort to put an end to speculation about why people leave the church.

Sorry, that wasn't very brief.

I am examining my own exit from Mormonism as it occurs. It feels like a slow motion horror movie that will end in death. It feels like this will end in my not being religious at all. Oh, I'll likely still believe in God. Even the daemons believe in God.

 

It is hard to balance the healing that God gave me in this church with the snide, superioristic way they needle me.  Trying to understand if the Mormons were just another stop along the way, or if I was meant to stay still wears on me. And, I will say that certain doctrines are pure blarney.  It works fine if I keep gushing mindless praise and obvious hero worship for the church, but the minute that you have a single complaint about anything, some Mormons will burn you down until you are a heap of ash. NO WAIT, what about the love of Jesus Christ?

 

It is doubtful that I will make an angry, dramatic, imateur, sickening Youtube video that would just reinforce a diagnosis of Borderline Personality Disorder. And, it is not that I think the church is not true. It is simply that I now know that I will never be a full member in it despite all the logic and science ... They lied to me about the Atonement and a few other things. 

 

Between 1844 and 1977 Blacks were not allowed in the temple. Now, in 2014 they don't allow me and people like me in the temple. They treat us like [deleted]. This despite personal testimony, the Atonement, repentance, and Medical evidence. I am more hurt and angry that you can even guess. However, I promise not to spray my brains on the door of the SLC temple like some have done.

 

God knows what they do. It is all that I need.

 

Ellen:  Please watch your use of language and review the board guidelines. Also, you need to refrain from making comments that hint at suicide.  It causes distress to others and we encourage you to seek professional help.

[thesometimesaint]

I am examining my own exit from Mormonism as it occurs. It feels like a slow motion horror movie that will end in death. It feels like this will end in my not being religious at all. Oh, I'll likely still believe in God. Even the daemons believe in God.

 

It is hard to balance the healing that God gave me in this church with the snide, superioristic way they needle me.  Trying to understand if the Mormons were just another stop along the way, or if I was meant to stay still wears on me. And, I will say that certain doctrines are pure blarney.  It works fine if I keep gushing mindless praise and obvious hero worship for the church, but the minute that you have a single complaint about anything, some Mormons will burn you down until you are a heap of ash. NO WAIT, what about the love of Jesus Christ?

 

It is doubtful that I will make an angry, dramatic, imateur, sickening Youtube video that would just reinforce a diagnosis of Borderline Personality Disorder. And, it is not that I think the church is not true. It is simply that I now know that I will never be a full member in it despite all the logic and science ... They lied to me about the Atonement and a few other things. 

 

Between 1844 and 1977 Blacks were not allowed in the temple. Now, in 2014 they don't allow me and people like me in the temple. They treat us like Niggers. This despite personal testimony, the Atonement, repentance, and Medical evidence. I am more hurt and angry that you can even guess. However, I promise not to spray my brains on the door of the SLC temple like some have done.

 

God knows what they do. It is all that I need.

 

I've always been as kind as I can be to you. So I don't understand this vitriol you have towards the Church I have loved for the last 43 years. May you find peace in your chosen departure.

[WysteriaBlue]

The Atonement covers more than just sin, it involves more on the side of humanity than just repentance. In becoming one with Christ, we accept his yoke by laying our burdens at his feet which involve both our sins and our sufferings. For the latter, we receive peace and comfort and his aid in turning that outside of us which is bad to good; for the former, we receive the opportunity and aid in repenting to remove the barrier we create with sin between us and God.

The Atonement is about reconciling man with God, it is about God helping us to grow up, we will know as we are known, etc.

 

I really related to what Calmoriah is saying in this post.  An LDS friend tells me often that behaviours, thoughts or beliefs that create separation from the love and forgiveness of God are "sins" or unwanted because in the end God wants to have a relationship with us...and connection, unity, love, harmony, peace and wisdom are the results of being in connection....thus suffering will ease through Him and the Atonement and forgiveness of Jesus.  I'm sure this sounds simple, but it gives me direction and hope.

[EllenMaksoud]

I've always been as kind as I can be to you. So I don't understand this vitriol you have towards the Church I have loved for the last 43 years. May you find peace in your chosen departure.

I am thankful for your kindness. Thank You. The truth is: the Doctor arogantly made the wrong decision at birth. Today, mostly those like me are left to determine their own future. Truth is that no one knows unless I tell them. I could easily have simply not told and everything would have worked out. I am simply too worn out by it all to explain myself again.

[thesometimesaint]

I am thankful for your kindness. Thank You. The truth is: the Doctor arogantly made the wrong decision at birth. Today, mostly those like me are left to determine their own future. Truth is that no one knows unless I tell them. I could easily have simply not told and everything would have worked out. I am simply too worn out by it all to explain myself again.

 

When I was born I looked like I was a little skinny spider monkey, and wasn't given 6 months to live. I've fooled them now for 63 years and hope to continue to fool them for many more. Though that is looking less likely with my health issues. Life is largely what we make it. You don't have to explain yourself to anyone you don't want to. When I turned 40 I passed the point of caring what others think of me. If they like me that is good. If they don't I pay little to no attention to them.

[EllenMaksoud]

When I was born I looked like I was a little skinny spider monkey, and wasn't given 6 months to live. I've fooled them now for 63 years and hope to continue to fool them for many more. Though that is looking less likely with my health issues. Life is largely what we make it. You don't have to explain yourself to anyone you don't want to. When I turned 40 I passed the point of caring what others think of me. If they like me that is good. If they don't I pay little to no attention to them.

I am sorry for your suffering. I know that there are many who are tormented by those who vainly think themselves superior. I remember the words of Solomon (?), "Vanity, all is vanity". Here is a poem I wrote just this morning. Please do not worry that it is a suicide note.

 

Always knew I was different and the Rents treated me that way. Thought perhaps I was borne on Earth, but in this latter time it seems as though that is not so. Someone suggested I am from Kolob. I thought perhaps I was Klingon but that is a vain imagining. Most certainly not Vulcan!

 

Recently, memories of my home planet have started to surface, a glimpse at a time. In that place, they do not fight. There are no labels; not black, white, spick, anglo, rag head, gay, lesbian, no they just are ...

 

On Earth many entertain the delusion that they must be aggressive to attain their goals. The meek get run over or even enslaved. Perhaps the tears of the innocent are what fill the oceans? Those tears, they are salty you know, just like the oceans.

 

I shall be returning home soon, though I hope not too soon. There are still those who need love, and to be healed, and to be reminded that if they are not careful, they can hurt others.

 

There is still so much to learn though at times staying here seems futile.

[Avatar4321]

My wife is not a member. I knew that when I married her. But I love her tons. I've never been treated differently by any of the members of the Church. We are regularly invited out. My wife hasnt come out yet, but she knows people love her. I have no doubt they would even if she never became a member.

 

An Eternal marriage is important to me. I don't have one yet. But praying about it and pondering the situation I made a decision. I was just going to trust God. I told Him how i felt. He said it would be okay. Whether that means I get to marry her for eternity or not, I don't know. But I trust His promises. I don't think He would have told me it was aright if it wasn't.

 

So right now I've decided to look forward in faith acting as if I already do have an Eternal family and trusting God to make it so. Just like the Saints prior to Christ looked forward in faith acting as if the Atonement had already occured. Because if you think about it, it doesn't matter when the sealing takes place as long as it does eventually. And even with the sealing unless you are living with faith the sealing won't have any effect.

 

And when I say living with faith, I am not talking about faith in the sealing. I am talking about faith in Christ. As a family keep working together spiritually. You might not share every aspect of the faith, but you can still united in your faith in Christ. My wife believes in Christ. We pray to God together. We try to become more Christ like together.  We discuss the scriptures together. We encourage one another.

 

As for the people at Church, they aren't always perfect. But what does Christ teach us no matter what our denomination? He says to love them. I would encourage both you and your wife to love them. Work at being Christlike. You can do that together despite denominational differences. You can read the scriptures together. You can build one another up. And if anyone abuses you, gossips about you, treats you poorly, love them. Forgive them. Do what Christ did.

 

My wife and I are going through a trial with other family members. We've been hurt bad and feel very betrayed. My wife was initially angrier and didn't want to forgive them or do any good to them. I was praying for her not to let this make her bitter. As time went on I began to get more angry because of what I saw this was doing to her and the reactions of the other party. Today the Lord answered my prayer and sent her verses which she looked up about loving those who do evil to you. I am very grateful for that.

 

Just because you aren't a member any more doesn't mean you can't grow together nor that you cant love as Christ teaches.

 

I don't know if you've had your records removed completely. It's really none of my business. But I don't believe your sealing is forever gone or that you've lost your Eternal Family. I think God is merciful to us when we are sincere and humble and seek to do His will, even if we aren't perfect.

 

Good luck with everything.

[JDave]

 

I am sorry for your suffering. I know that there are many who are tormented by those who vainly think themselves superior. I remember the words of Solomon (?), "Vanity, all is vanity".

Wouldn't it nicer if it was all charity, rather than vanity?  You are right that the world needs our kindness.  Not all is figured out yet, not within ourselves and not within the church.  Sometimes I feel like the only things I have figured out are that Jesus Christ atoned for all of us, and we are all in this together.

[Raingirl]

I am examining my own exit from Mormonism as it occurs. It feels like a slow motion horror movie that will end in death. It feels like this will end in my not being religious at all. Oh, I'll likely still believe in God. Even the daemons believe in God.

 

It is hard to balance the healing that God gave me in this church with the snide, superioristic way they needle me.  Trying to understand if the Mormons were just another stop along the way, or if I was meant to stay still wears on me. And, I will say that certain doctrines are pure blarney.  It works fine if I keep gushing mindless praise and obvious hero worship for the church, but the minute that you have a single complaint about anything, some Mormons will burn you down until you are a heap of ash. NO WAIT, what about the love of Jesus Christ?

 

It is doubtful that I will make an angry, dramatic, imateur, sickening Youtube video that would just reinforce a diagnosis of Borderline Personality Disorder. And, it is not that I think the church is not true. It is simply that I now know that I will never be a full member in it despite all the logic and science ... They lied to me about the Atonement and a few other things. 

 

Between 1844 and 1977 Blacks were not allowed in the temple. Now, in 2014 they don't allow me and people like me in the temple. They treat us like [deleted]. This despite personal testimony, the Atonement, repentance, and Medical evidence. I am more hurt and angry that you can even guess. However, I promise not to spray my brains on the door of the SLC temple like some have done.

 

God knows what they do. It is all that I need.

 

Ellen:  Please watch your use of language and review the board guidelines. Also, you need to refrain from making comments that hint at suicide.  It causes distress to others and we encourage you to seek professional help.

No one lied to you. Those of us who know you in real life know the real story.

The church is not to blame for your long-standing issues.

Seek professional help as suggested.

[EllenMaksoud]

No one lied to you. Those of us who know you in real life know the real story.

The church is not to blame for your long-standing issues.

Seek professional help as suggested.

And you would know what was said to me how? And the "real story" ... Hmmm are you saying I am misrepresenting the facts?

[ERayR]

And you would know what was said to me how? And the "real story" ... Hmmm are you saying I am misrepresenting the facts?

 

I know nothing except that we all, you, me and everybody else, interpret the "facts" according to our personal experiences and understanding.  It saddens me when someone misinterprets my intentions but I really have no control over that.

 

May you find the peace you seek.

[EllenMaksoud]

I know nothing except that we all, you, me and everybody else, interpret the "facts" according to our personal experiences and understanding.  It saddens me when someone misinterprets my intentions but I really have no control over that.

 

May you find the peace you seek.

You know ... I'm sorry. Circumstances are really stressful right now and I responded improperly.

[WysteriaBlue]

You know ... I'm sorry. Circumstances are really stressful right now and I responded improperly.

 

You have shown a great deal of courage and grace to all.  

Gentle hugs,

-WB

[EllenMaksoud]

Wouldn't it nicer if it was all charity, rather than vanity?  You are right that the world needs our kindness.  Not all is figured out yet, not within ourselves and not within the church.  Sometimes I feel like the only things I have figured out are that Jesus Christ atoned for all of us, and we are all in this together.

Not being in a position to give advice to anyone, I have taken some long steps back, not to feel anger or rejection, but to try to suss out what is important to Heavenly Father. Some are given heavy burdens and many are within the church. The simple idea of simply hanging onto Heavenly Father and rejecting everything else may seem attractive at times.

 

There are those around us that are beautiful or handsome. Who seem to have no struggles at all. We can not anticipate the tears and anguish that some of them will feel tonight, wondering if they have portrayed that which is pleasing to Jesus the Christ. The trials of others is so obvious, we sometimes wish that they would suffer a bit more quietly.

 

The LDS church tows a huge long train of doctrine; perhaps even more than the Catholic Church. Not being born to the covenants it is often unclear whether some of these ideas are even nessessary.  Some of it is as inscrutable as Calculus II. Should an Evangelical even try to convert to the church? Perhaps it is even more strange to have a Muslim convert?

 

The idea that we might remove all the vanity from our lives and replace that with charity seems vain perhaps? Do we decieve ourselves when we think that we have accomplished that? Perhaps an Alien mind is incapable of understanding humans. It is clear that Men are from Mars and women are from Venus. What do we do if we are from, "Somewhere Else Entirely"?

Edited May 9, 2014 by EllenMaksoud

[thesometimesaint]

Not being in a position to give advice to anyone, I have taken some long steps back, not to feel anger or rejection, but to try to suss out what is important to Heavenly Father. Some are given heavy burdens and many are within the church. The simple idea of simply hanging onto Heavenly Father and rejecting everything else may seem attractive at times.

 

There are those around us that are beautiful or handsome. Who seem to have no struggles at all. We can not anticipate the tears and anguish that some of them will feel tonight, wondering if they have portrayed that which is pleasing to Jesus the Christ. The trials of others is so obvious, we sometimes wish that they would suffer a bit more quietly.

 

The LDS church tows a huge long train of doctrine; perhaps even more than the Catholic Church. Not being born to the covenants it is often unclear whether some of these ideas are even nessessary.  Some of it is as inscrutable as Calculus II. Should an Evangelical even try to convert to the church? Perhaps it is even more strange to have a Muslim convert?

 

The idea that we might remove all the vanity from our lives and replace that with charity seems vain perhaps? Do we decieve ourselves when we think that we have accomplished that? Perhaps an Alien mind is incapable of understanding humans. It is clear that Men are from Mars and women are from Venus. What do we do if we are from, "Somewhere Else Entirely"?

 

The Church is made up of people. Some with more obvious problems than others. But we all have them. I believe there is a place in the Church for everyone. How/when/if we accept that place whether in this life or the next is up to us.

[saemo]

Not being in a position to give advice to anyone, I have taken some long steps back, not to feel anger or rejection, but to try to suss out what is important to Heavenly Father. Some are given heavy burdens and many are within the church. The simple idea of simply hanging onto Heavenly Father and rejecting everything else may seem attractive at times.

 

There are those around us that are beautiful or handsome. Who seem to have no struggles at all. We can not anticipate the tears and anguish that some of them will feel tonight, wondering if they have portrayed that which is pleasing to Jesus the Christ. The trials of others is so obvious, we sometimes wish that they would suffer a bit more quietly.

 

The LDS church tows a huge long train of doctrine; perhaps even more than the Catholic Church. Not being born to the covenants it is often unclear whether some of these ideas are even nessessary.  Some of it is as inscrutable as Calculus II. Should an Evangelical even try to convert to the church? Perhaps it is even more strange to have a Muslim convert?

 

The idea that we might remove all the vanity from our lives and replace that with charity seems vain perhaps? Do we decieve ourselves when we think that we have accomplished that? Perhaps an Alien mind is incapable of understanding humans. It is clear that Men are from Mars and women are from Venus. What do we do if we are from, "Somewhere Else Entirely"?

True. But all have the same calling, to follow Him. Some are given gifts that others do not have, but no gift is greater than another.

I have a fondness for this poem:

Go placidly amid the noise and the haste,

and remember what peace there may be in silence.

As far as possible, without surrender,

be on good terms with all persons.

Speak your truth quietly and clearly, and listen to others,

even to the dull and the ignorant; they too have their story.

Avoid loud and aggressive persons; they are vexatious

to the spirit. If you compare yourself with others,

you may become vain or bitter, for always

there will be greater and lesser persons than yourself.

Enjoy your achievements as well as your plans.

Keep interested in your own career, however humble;

it is a real possession in the changing fortunes of time.

Exercise caution in your business affairs, for the world is full of trickery.

But let this not blind you to what virtue there is;

many persons strive for high ideals,

and everywhere life is full of heroism.

Be yourself. Especially do not feign affection.

Neither be cynical about love, for in the face of all aridity and disenchantment;

it is as perennial as the grass.

Take kindly the counsel of the years,

gracefully surrendering the things of youth.

Nurture strength of spirit to shield you in sudden misfortune.

But do not distress yourself with dark imaginings

Many fears are born of fatigue and loneliness.

Beyond a wholesome discipline, be gentle with yourself.

You are a child of the universe no less than the trees and the stars;

you have a right to be here.

And whether or not it is clear to you,

no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore, be at peace with God,

whatever you conceive Him to be.

And whatever your labors and aspirations

in the noisy confusion of life, keep peace in your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams,

it is still a beautiful world. Be cheerful. Strive to be happy.

©1927 Max Ehrmann (renewed) Bell & Son publishing, LLC

[EllenMaksoud]

True. But all have the same calling, to follow Him. Some are given gifts that others do not have, but no gift is greater than another.

I have a fondness for this poem:

Go placidly amid the noise and the haste,

and remember what peace there may be in silence.

As far as possible, without surrender,

be on good terms with all persons.

Speak your truth quietly and clearly, and listen to others,

even to the dull and the ignorant; they too have their story.

Avoid loud and aggressive persons; they are vexatious

to the spirit. If you compare yourself with others,

you may become vain or bitter, for always

there will be greater and lesser persons than yourself.

Enjoy your achievements as well as your plans.

Keep interested in your own career, however humble;

it is a real possession in the changing fortunes of time.

Exercise caution in your business affairs, for the world is full of trickery.

But let this not blind you to what virtue there is;

many persons strive for high ideals,

and everywhere life is full of heroism.

Be yourself. Especially do not feign affection.

Neither be cynical about love, for in the face of all aridity and disenchantment;

it is as perennial as the grass.

Take kindly the counsel of the years,

gracefully surrendering the things of youth.

Nurture strength of spirit to shield you in sudden misfortune.

But do not distress yourself with dark imaginings

Many fears are born of fatigue and loneliness.

Beyond a wholesome discipline, be gentle with yourself.

You are a child of the universe no less than the trees and the stars;

you have a right to be here.

And whether or not it is clear to you,

no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore, be at peace with God,

whatever you conceive Him to be.

And whatever your labors and aspirations

in the noisy confusion of life, keep peace in your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams,

it is still a beautiful world. Be cheerful. Strive to be happy.

©1927 Max Ehrmann (renewed) Bell & Son publishing, LLC

Thank you. The poem in some ways reminds me of "Thanitopsis" . Oops, the internet is having a ruction again.

[saemo]

And also, a fondness for St. Therese of Lisieux, who has the title "Little Flower":

"Just as the sun shines simultaneously on the tall cedars and on each little flower as though it were alone on the earth, so Our Lord is occupied particularly with each soul as though there were no others like it. And just as in nature all the seasons are arranged in such a way as to make the humblest daisy bloom on a set day, in the same way, everything works out for the good of each soul." - St. Therese

[saemo]

Thank you. The poem in some ways reminds me of "Thanitopsis" . Oops, the internet is having a ruction again.

Oh! Beautiful. We need a poetry thread.