mtomm Posted March 24, 2014 Posted March 24, 2014 Is the Church led by revelation? And would not revelation from the sisters (those sisters who are supposed to preside over an entire world of sisters and children and youth) be important to seek? Would not the brethren say, "Sisters, we are seeking revelation on input on a document about the family and your thoughts and inspiration about how this affects women and children is vitally important. Please make this a matter of prayer and then share those thoughts with us." 1
Mystery Meat Posted March 24, 2014 Posted March 24, 2014 And would not revelation from the sisters (those sisters who are supposed to preside over an entire world of sisters and children and youth) be important to seek? Would not the brethren say, "Sisters, we are seeking revelation on input on a document about the family and your thoughts and inspiration about how this affects women and children is vitally important. Please make this a matter of prayer and then share those thoughts with us." I am not looking for revelation from mortals, male or female. I could go associate with any number of organizations if that's what I wanted. 1
The Nehor Posted March 24, 2014 Posted March 24, 2014 Either we are a vital part of the process or our opinion is neither sought or wanted. Which is it? It seems all that praise heaped upon women is strictly hollow words. If the brethren in SL do not consider a women's point of view on something so important as the Proclamation why would leaders at a ward or stake leader think it is important for more trivial matters? You cannot heap praise with one hand and take it away with the other. We notice stuff like.They are a vital part of the process. However they are not included in every process and this is one of them. The right to make binding declarations is reserved for the First Presidency and the Twelve alone and they do not need consultation regarding those (except amongst themselves). 4
ksfisher Posted March 24, 2014 Posted March 24, 2014 (edited) And would not revelation from the sisters (those sisters who are supposed to preside over an entire world of sisters and children and youth) be important to seek? Would not the brethren say, "Sisters, we are seeking revelation on input on a document about the family and your thoughts and inspiration about how this affects women and children is vitally important. Please make this a matter of prayer and then share those thoughts with us." If we're looking for input on children and youth then the General YM's Presidency, the General YW's Presidency, and the General Primary Presidency should have been consulted as well. And throw in Area and Stake Presidencies so we can make sure that any special needs that members in their areas might have are being taken into consideration. Or...we could remember that we sustain the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve as prophets, seers, and revelators for the membership of the entire church, not just for the men. Edited March 24, 2014 by ksfisher 3
Scott Lloyd Posted March 24, 2014 Posted March 24, 2014 (edited) You're entitled to your opinion on the late Sister Okasaki. As you probably suspect, I disagree. Your comments illustrate, to me, why women need to be ordained to have a voice in the church. And this remark perhaps illustrates that some parties demanding priesthood ordination for women don't really buy into the doctrine that a prophet, seer and revelator has the role of receiving revelation from Christ to govern the Church. What they apparently want is some sort of democratically elected body subject to the whims of the membership -- which may be similar to how some sects in Christendom are run, but would be quite unlike the Church of Jesus Christ. Edited March 24, 2014 by Scott Lloyd 3
Scott Lloyd Posted March 24, 2014 Posted March 24, 2014 (edited) Either we are a vital part of the process or our opinion is neither sought or wanted. Which is it? It seems all that praise heaped upon women is strictly hollow words. If the brethren in SL do not consider a women's point of view on something so important as the Proclamation why would leaders at a ward or stake leader think it is important for more trivial matters? You cannot heap praise with one hand and take it away with the other. We notice stuff like. I think you have either missed or chosen to ignore this portion of my post that I quoted from my post of several months ago: My disapproval would be just as strong had such public criticism come from a former member of the presidency of one of the other auxiliary organizations of the Church, be it male or female. If there is ever a choice that must be made between the two, I take my direction from prophets and apostles, not former members of auxiliary presidencies. Edited March 24, 2014 by Scott Lloyd
Scott Lloyd Posted March 24, 2014 Posted March 24, 2014 (edited) And would not revelation from the sisters (those sisters who are supposed to preside over an entire world of sisters and children and youth) be important to seek? (Bold emphasis mine for reference) CFR that it is intended in the Church that leaders of auxiliary organizations preside over individuals as opposed to presiding over programs. Edited March 24, 2014 by Scott Lloyd 1
Bikeemikey Posted March 24, 2014 Posted March 24, 2014 But of course, people have been excommunicated in the past for advocating a position. Maybe times have changed now. But if i go back 20 years ago, there would be no question that I would be excommunicated for advocating polygamy. And most likely the people of OW would be also. I don't think that a church can be of one mind once identity groups begin to advocate for their own version of what is right and what is wrong. We see what happened to the more liberal churches. They seem to have lost credibility. And I do believe that there would be bishops today who would call me in to the office if I were advocating a return to the principle. You have highlighted a critical component of the process in our church. Some Bishops may, some may not. This is a double edged sword of disciplinary process. That said. I do not believe that any bishop I have ever worked with would engage in discipline if one was simply advocating for their belief that polygamy should be restored. Every bishop ought to discipline if someone was actually engaged in a polygamous life style. Thankfully we are not in the past. We are in the present. I do not need to engage in presentism and judge the past by my standards today, nor do I need to be held accountable to the standards of the past. We are responsible for the judgements of today and today alone.
Kenngo1969 Posted March 24, 2014 Posted March 24, 2014 (edited) There are a couple threads on this subject, so maybe I haven't said it here so I'll clarify... Of course the church and even the Brethren can speak to the public through a PA spokesperson (or possibly better, a spokeswoman, in this case). I think that's fine. And, I think that Kelly & the OW group should abide by the requests in the letter. But, I don't consider a PA letter to contain "church counsel" that members of the church are under some spiritual obligation to obey. OW should cancel their "protest" (or whatever they want to call it) in response to the letter out of civil respect/decency because the request by Moody on behalf of the church was polite, appropriate, and legal. (Politeness isn't a requirement -- I just thought it was worth noting.) [Emphasis added by Kenngo1969].Polite? Polite?!! You call The Big, Bad, Mean Church threatening these poor, defenseless women (see http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/opinion/57702780-82/women-letter-public-ordain.html.csp) polite? Please! Edited March 24, 2014 by Kenngo1969
mtomm Posted March 24, 2014 Posted March 24, 2014 (Bold emphasis mine for reference) CFR that it is intended in the Church that leaders of auxiliary organizations preside over individuals as opposed to presiding over programs. You are right, my bad. Women do not preside.
Scott Lloyd Posted March 24, 2014 Posted March 24, 2014 (edited) You are right, my bad. Women do not preside. That's not what I said. They preside over programs and organizations. As do presidencies of the Sunday School and Young Men organizations. Edited March 24, 2014 by Scott Lloyd
Kenngo1969 Posted March 24, 2014 Posted March 24, 2014 (Bold emphasis mine for reference) CFR that it is intended in the Church that leaders of auxiliary organizations preside over individuals as opposed to presiding over programs.One thing I find interesting is that when it comes to the question of whether women should be ordained to the Priesthood, the Priesthood is treated as a monolith, as though all men possess it on the same level and exercise it in the same way. In reality, there are only four men in a ward (two of whom are quite young) who exercise Priesthood keys: a bishop, an Elders quorum president, a Teachers quorum president, and a Deacons quorum president. Just sayin'!
rockpond Posted March 24, 2014 Posted March 24, 2014 Polite? Polite?!! You call The Big, Bad, Mean Church threatening these poor, defenseless women (see http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/opinion/57702780-82/women-letter-public-ordain.html.csp) polite? Please! I tried reading it but stopped when I got to this line: "Rather, it appears to be a calculated public statement made by a church spokesperson for the purpose of affecting public opinion." Shocking! A public affairs spokesperson made a public statement meant to affect public opinion!
Bernard Gui Posted March 24, 2014 Posted March 24, 2014 And would not revelation from the sisters (those sisters who are supposed to preside over an entire world of sisters and children and youth) be important to seek? Would not the brethren say, "Sisters, we are seeking revelation on input on a document about the family and your thoughts and inspiration about how this affects women and children is vitally important. Please make this a matter of prayer and then share those thoughts with us." Are there any other official declarations by the First Presidency and Council of the Twelve that included thoughts from other members? While this may be a problem for some, the way this is done appears to be the way the Lord has always revealed his Word to the Church. Personally, I would like to have been consulted when the Blazer Scouts were renamed Eleven Year Old Scouts. Where is the romance in that?
mtomm Posted March 24, 2014 Posted March 24, 2014 They are a vital part of the process. However they are not included in every process and this is one of them. The right to make binding declarations is reserved for the First Presidency and the Twelve alone and they do not need consultation regarding those (except amongst themselves). That's not what I said. They preside over programs and organizations. As do presidencies of the Sunday School and Young Men organizations. Okay, women do not preside over people or meetings. They preside over programs. Of course, those programs actually have people that participate in them but that's not really your point. I completely understand the point you are trying to make. You don't have to keep pointing it out.
Scott Lloyd Posted March 24, 2014 Posted March 24, 2014 (edited) Are there any other official declarations by the First Presidency and Council of the Twelve that included thoughts from other members? While this may be a problem for some, the way this is done appears to be the way the Lord has always revealed his Word to the Church. Personally, I would like to have been consulted when the Blazer Scouts were renamed Eleven Year Old Scouts. Where is the romance in that?I've been smarting ever since they dropped the "Trailbuilders" designation with its Blazer, Trekker, and Guide Patrol classes I grew up with during the Sixties. They should have consulted me! Edited March 24, 2014 by Scott Lloyd
Mystery Meat Posted March 24, 2014 Posted March 24, 2014 I've been smarting ever since they dropped the "Trailbuilders" designation with its Blazer, Trekker, and Guide Patrol classes I grew up with during the Sixties. They should have consulted me! They could have consulted me too and I would have told them the truth: that scouting is a complete waste of time.
Bernard Gui Posted March 24, 2014 Posted March 24, 2014 I've been smarting ever since they dropped the "Trailbuilders" designation with its Blazer, Trekker, and Guide Patrol classes I grew up with during the Sixties. They should have consulted me! Well, I grew up in the Fifties, and I really miss the Blazer, Trekker, and Guide Patrol, and I wish I still had my bandalo.
Bernard Gui Posted March 24, 2014 Posted March 24, 2014 (edited) Okay, women do not preside over people or meetings. They preside over programs. Of course, those programs actually have people that participate in them but that's not really your point. I completely understand the point you are trying to make. You don't have to keep pointing it out. The problem is there are those who are ready and willing to pounce on any sign of weakness in the Church position, including the identity and professional position of the Church spokespersons, the extreme parsing of their words, and hanging up on the supposed "code words" in Mormon lingo (such as "preside") to make the Church and its leaders seem to be even more perfidious. Edited March 24, 2014 by Bernard Gui
Scott Lloyd Posted March 24, 2014 Posted March 24, 2014 (edited) Well, I grew up in the Fifties, and I really miss the Blazer, Trekker, and Guide Patrol, and I wish I still had my bandalo.Oh, I clearly remember the bendelos. And the lap boards depicting the "Trail to the Priesthood." When you "passed off" memorizing an Article of Faith, you got to paste a signpost sticker on the lapboard trail. How many Primary kids these days bother to memorize the Articles of Faith? Edited March 24, 2014 by Scott Lloyd
Bernard Gui Posted March 24, 2014 Posted March 24, 2014 Oh, I clearly remember the bendelos. And the lap boards depicting the "Trail to the Priesthood." When you "passed off" memorizing an Article of Faith, you to paste a signpost sticker on the lapboard trail. How many Primary kids these days bother to memorize the Articles of Faith?Wow, are you bringing back the memories! Well, I think there was attempt to correct that in the last General Conference.
The Nehor Posted March 24, 2014 Posted March 24, 2014 How many Primary kids these days bother to memorize the Articles of Faith?Many in my ward do but that may be because after Church on Sunday the Bishop gives candy to every child that recites the one for that week.
Bernard Gui Posted March 24, 2014 Posted March 24, 2014 They could have consulted me too and I would have told them the truth: that scouting is a complete waste of time.Speak for yourself. It has been a great blessing to me and mine. 1
Bernard Gui Posted March 24, 2014 Posted March 24, 2014 (edited) Many in my ward do but that may be because after Church on Sunday the Bishop gives candy to every child that recites the one for that week.Candy works. I have done many things for candy. Edited March 24, 2014 by Bernard Gui
Kenngo1969 Posted March 24, 2014 Posted March 24, 2014 I tried reading it but stopped when I got to this line: "Rather, it appears to be a calculated public statement made by a church spokesperson for the purpose of affecting public opinion." Shocking! A public affairs spokesperson made a public statement meant to affect public opinion!I know, right? (Your mileage probably varies, but I don't think that's all it's intended to do. To each, his own. )
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