Ordain Women Group Prohibited From Protesting On Church Property

[Gray]

I reject the assertion at the get-go that women have no voice in the Church.

 

It's clear we are poles apart on this.

 

I know you think that is so, but when you say things like this:

 

 

 

 

The proclamation on the family transcended their presidency and Relief Society organization. The fact that the women's meeting was the forum for its announcement did not give them the right of sign-off for its presentation.

 

it makes me wonder what kind of a voice you think women should have in the church. 

[Scott Lloyd]

The church went to some trouble to correct the notion that the proclamation was a revelation. If you think it was, you have that right. I don't think it was any more relevatory than a reiteration of current beliefs. 

I don't recall the Church making any effort at all in that regard.

 

If you are referring to President Packer changing the wording in the printed version of his general conference sermon, I'm unaware of any evidence that this was anything other than President Packer's own decision. And I'm unwilling to read anything into it other than one general conference speaker's own preference as to how his words are to be preserved in written form.

 

I still look for the day when the proclamation will become OD 3.

[Scott Lloyd]

I know you think that is so, but when you say things like this:

 

 

 

it makes me wonder what kind of a voice you think women should have in the church. 

They have as much voice as I do. Nobody consulted me on the wording of the proclamation.

[Gray]

They have as much voice as I do. Nobody consulted me on the wording of the proclamation.

 

But you don't lead in the organization that includes more than half of the church  membership. 

[Gray]

I don't recall the Church making any effort at all in that regard.

 

If you are referring to President Packer changing the wording in the printed version of his general conference sermon, I'm unaware of any evidence that this was anything other than President Packer's own decision. And I'm unwilling to read anything into it other than one general conference speaker's own preference as to how his words are to be preserved in written form.

 

I still look for the day when the proclamation will become OD 3.

 

The one and only time it was referred to officially as a revelation, someone went to the trouble of correcting it to say "guide". That's all I'm saying.

 

Don't get me wrong - I don't disagree with anyone saying any text is a revelation on principle. I respect everyone's right to define revelation for themselves. 

Edited March 25, 2014 by Gray

[Scott Lloyd]

Yes, I think it likely. Refraining from having it be a stumbling block may be a merciful consideration.

For what it's worth, Daniel Peterson has a blog post today that seems pertinent to this matter.

[Scott Lloyd]

The one and only time it was referred to officially as a revelation, someone went to the trouble of correcting it to say "guide". That's all I'm saying.

Implicit in your remark was the assumption that "the Church" (whatever that is intended to mean) forced President Packer to make the revision.

 

I don't think there is any way that you can know that.

[Scott Lloyd]

But you don't lead in the organization that includes more than half of the church  membership. 

To my knowledge, they didn't ask the Sunday School presidency to weigh in on the matter. Or the Young Men presidency.

Edited March 25, 2014 by Scott Lloyd

[Calm]

 

But regardless of all that, it seems clear that the unfortunate result of the priesthood ban policy is that half of the membership have no voice in the church. 

I think "no voice" is an exaggeration to the extreme.  We have from the beginning of the Church down to this past week evidence of women's voices being heard.  I can point to several times things happening on the Church in my ward because I spoke up about something.

 

You need to be more specific if you want any chance of agreement with your position.

[Scott Lloyd]

I don't see how the reasons for the new edition really matters.

 

Since new editions to the scriptures come out so rarely, if the leaders believed, when the 2013 edition was being put together, that the Proclamation is in fact revelation that is equal in authority to scripture, it would have made sense to canonize it at that time so that it could be included.  It would save a lot of money for the church and would also make it easier on members financially.

 

Like is said, it would be interesting to know why it wasn't included--if it had to do with timing, or if it was because the leaders don't currently consider it to be equal to scripture.

I agree with ksfisher on this. Updating and changing the wording of chapter summaries and other study aids is a far cry from changing the content of the scriptural canon -- which could happen at any time.

Edited March 25, 2014 by Scott Lloyd

[ksfisher]

You can look for input from the Latter-day Saints while still sustaining leaders. In fact doing both is the best possible path. 

So how many Latter-day Saints should have been consulted before the proclamation was issued?  The Relief Society wasn't, but as I pointed out, neither were the organizations that represent children and the youth.  If the Relief Society was to be consulted shouldn't other organizations have been as well?  How about the needs of saints living in Africa vs those in Australia? 

 

We have a coucil system in the church.  Ward councils, stake councils, and the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve form a council.  We believe that it is the right and responsiblity of each council to receive revelation from God for those whom they have stewardship over.  The proclamation came from the appropriate council.

[ksfisher]

For what it's worth, Daniel Peterson has a blog post today that seems pertinent to this matter.

Elder Neal A. Maxwell was fond of a quotation from the eighteenth-century English clergyman William Law:  ”If you have not chosen the Kingdom of God first,” Law said, “it will in the end make no difference what you have chosen instead.”

 

I liked this quote.

[Scott Lloyd]

Elder Neal A. Maxwell was fond of a quotation from the eighteenth-century English clergyman William Law:  ”If you have not chosen the Kingdom of God first,” Law said, “it will in the end make no difference what you have chosen instead.”

 

I liked this quote.

Yeah.

 

Another one that occurred to me was Peter's response when Jesus asked the disciples, "Will ye also go away?" Peter replied (and I'm quoting this from memory here), "Master, to whom shall we go? Thou has the words of eternal life."

[Gray]

Implicit in your remark was the assumption that "the Church" (whatever that is intended to mean) forced President Packer to make the revision.

 

I don't think there is any way that you can know that.

 

I didn't have that in mind when I brought it up, or anything close to that. 

[Gray]

To my knowledge, they didn't ask the Sunday School presidency to weigh in on the matter. Or the Young Men presidency.

 

That's the problem - the one and only women's org in the church is equated to, and indeed called, an auxiliary 

 

Another problem: while the 15 have perspectives on being in Sunday School and being young men, they do not bring with them the perspective of being a woman in the church. 

[Gray]

So how many Latter-day Saints should have been consulted before the proclamation was issued?  The Relief Society wasn't, but as I pointed out, neither were the organizations that represent children and the youth.  If the Relief Society was to be consulted shouldn't other organizations have been as well?  How about the needs of saints living in Africa vs those in Australia? 

 

We have a coucil system in the church.  Ward councils, stake councils, and the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve form a council.  We believe that it is the right and responsiblity of each council to receive revelation from God for those whom they have stewardship over.  The proclamation came from the appropriate council.

 

Inspiration without any data to go on doesn't tend to work very well. 

[Scott Lloyd]

I didn't have that in mind when I brought it up, or anything close to that. 

Then I wonder why you said ...

 

 

The church went to some trouble to correct the notion that the proclamation was a revelation.

 

... and didn't bother to correct me when I surmised that you were alluding to President Packer's conference address.

Edited March 25, 2014 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

That's the problem - the one and only women's org in the church is equated to, and indeed called, an auxiliary

This is the first time I've seen that characterized as a problem.

 

The Young Women, Young Men, Sunday School, Primary organizations are all referred to as auxiliaries.

 

It's just a word. Maybe somebody will come up with a better one sometime. Meanwhile, I don't see any great need to agonize over it.

Edited March 25, 2014 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

Inspiration without any data to go on doesn't tend to work very well. 

That depends.

 

God will communicate His message whenever and however He is disposed to do so. I don't think it wise to try to place mortal limits on that.

Edited March 25, 2014 by Scott Lloyd

[ksfisher]

Yeah.

 

Another one that occurred to me was Peter's response when Jesus asked the disciples, "Will ye also go away?" Peter replied (and I'm quoting this from memory here), "Master, to whom shall we go? Thou has the words of eternal life."

Unfortunatly I've seen people in my ward and family leave because they let something, whether church history, leaders, or issues with other members, come between themselves and Christ.  Many people, after heeding Christ's invitation to "come and see" do not respond as Peter did when they are faced with a challenge to their beliefs and are asked, "will ye also go away?" 

[Bikeemikey]

Are there any other official declarations by the First Presidency and Council of the Twelve that included thoughts from other members? While this may be a problem for some, the way this is done appears to be the way the Lord has always revealed his Word to the Church. Personally, I would like to have been consulted when the Blazer Scouts were renamed Eleven Year Old Scouts. Where is the romance in that?

 

Most revelations likely come in-conjunction with thoughts from other members... that does not mean that it is presented to the church as this one is from the prophet and [insert name here]. But that does not mean that the prophet did not arrive at the final point of revelation absent input from other parties.

 

Most revelation is forming and idea and then waiting for the lord to confirm it.

 

Most ideas are an amalgamation of a wide variety of inputs.

[bluebell]

I agree with ksfisher on this. Updating and changing the wording of chapter summaries and other study aids is a far cry from changing the content of the scriptural canon -- which could happen at any time.

 

Of course it could happen at any time.  I'm certainly not suggesting that it couldn't.

 

However, if the prophet and apostles are in possession of something which they believe to be scripture, and they are at that time updating the current scriptures to a new edition, it is a valid question to wonder why they would not include it.

[Scott Lloyd]

Of course it could happen at any time.  I'm certainly not suggesting that it couldn't.

 

However, if the prophet and apostles are in possession of something which they believe to be scripture, and they are at that time updating the current scriptures to a new edition, it is a valid question to wonder why they would not include it.

Yes, the question is indeed valid.

[Stone holm]

Yeah.

 

Another one that occurred to me was Peter's response when Jesus asked the disciples, "Will ye also go away?" Peter replied (and I'm quoting this from memory here), "Master, to whom shall we go? Thou has the words of eternal life."

 

Problem is people are going away because they are not convinced that we have those words.  Its tragic, but we are losing people in droves as they leave high school.  Of course its not just our Church, but there seems to be a growing distaste for religion as being obsessed with sex, and the college educated are leaving it behind.  (BYU excepted of course.)  If we had a Church sponsored marriage mill like BYU out here in the East it might help, or if they prefer the politics of the Confederacy, then down in the South -- but somewhere in the East.

Edited March 25, 2014 by Stone holm

[ksfisher]

Problem is people are going away because they are not convinced that we have those words.  Its tragic, but we are losing people in droves as they leave high school.  Of course its not just our Church, but there seems to be a growing distaste for religion as being obsessed with sex, and the college educated are leaving it behind.  (BYU excepted of course.)  If we had a Church sponsored marriage mill like BYU out here in the East it might help, or if they prefer the politics of the Confederacy, then down in the South -- but somewhere in the East.

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