Scott Lloyd Posted March 17, 2014 Posted March 17, 2014 (edited) This was linked to in a post on Daniel Peterson's blog. Utah and its culture have been ridiculed on this forum in the past for its liquor laws that are presumably influenced by the predominance of the Church and its members. Statistics like these take a lot of the sting out of such ridicule. Edited March 17, 2014 by Scott Lloyd 1
bluebell Posted March 17, 2014 Posted March 17, 2014 That article certainly does illustrate just how evil we are.
katherine the great Posted March 17, 2014 Posted March 17, 2014 This was linked to in a post on Daniel Peterson's blog. Utah and its culture have been ridiculed on this forum in the past for its liquor laws that are presumably influenced by the predominance of the Church and its members. Statistics like these take a lot of the sting out of such ridicule.Makes sense. Lots of people in the state trying to live a religion which forbids alcohol + strict liquor laws which might discourage younger members from experimenting with it = good rating for safety from alcohol effects.
Avatar4321 Posted March 18, 2014 Posted March 18, 2014 I'd like to see the day that zero occurances of alcohol related death's occur. 1
Bikeemikey Posted March 18, 2014 Posted March 18, 2014 I'd like to see the day that zero occurances of alcohol related death's occur.Why not just aim for zero deaths?
bluebell Posted March 18, 2014 Posted March 18, 2014 Why not just aim for zero deaths?It would get really crowded. And plus, I think God purposefully designed mortality so that it would have an end.
Nofear Posted March 18, 2014 Posted March 18, 2014 Is long life really a blessing? No, not necessarily. But untimely deaths due to the errors of our brothers and sisters (e.g. alcohol related car accidents, etc.) aren't usually considered a good thing. Why not just aim for zero deaths? If that is a goal, you can find like-mindedness among some of the Mormon Transhumanists.
The Nehor Posted March 18, 2014 Posted March 18, 2014 Why not just aim for zero deaths?Has this world been so kind to you that you would regret leaving it?
Bikeemikey Posted March 18, 2014 Posted March 18, 2014 No, not necessarily. But untimely deaths due to the errors of our brothers and sisters (e.g. alcohol related car accidents, etc.) aren't usually considered a good thing.If that is a goal, you can find like-mindedness among some of the Mormon Transhumanists.Like the Johnny cash song - "my own, trans-humanist Jesus - someone to hear my prayer"
Five Solas Posted March 19, 2014 Posted March 19, 2014 You seem awfully conflicted, Scott. You don't want to acknowledge the LDS Church's influence on Utah State government. In the OP you write "presumably influenced" as though the connection were unproven, perhaps existing only in the minds of rabid anti-Mormons. While in that very post you link an article that makes the connection inescapable & irrefutable. What are your readers supposed to make of this? I'm not a fan of "Washington Times," but taking the story for what it contains--two things stand out. 1) The self-congratulatory Eric Hawkins, spokesman for the LDS Church, who gleefully confuses correlation for causation. 2) The cold hard reality posed by Melva Sine, president of the Utah Restaurant Association: Utah has a low per-capita rate of alcohol-related death (essentially tied with Virginia and Nebraska) because Utah has a disproportionately low number of alcohol consumers. Not because of the ridiculous state liquor laws the LDS Church champions (as the article makes clear). If you adjusted the denominator to eliminate non-drinkers in Utah and other states participating in the study, Utah would be somewhere in the middle, not the bottom. And what does that tell us about Utah's liquor laws? It tells us they're no more effective at preventing alcohol-related deaths than the laws of most other states. And it tells us Hawkins spokesmanship in the matter is just spin & chest-thumping. --Erik
Scott Lloyd Posted March 19, 2014 Author Posted March 19, 2014 (edited) You seem awfully conflicted, Scott. You don't want to acknowledge the LDS Church's influence on Utah State government. Where have I stated that? In the OP you write "presumably influenced" as though the connection were unproven, perhaps existing only in the minds of rabid anti-Mormons. To paraphrase Inego Montoya, I don't think presumably means what you think it means. A reliable on-line dictionary defines presumably as used to convey that what is asserted is very likely though not known for certain. At any rate, that is the meaning I intended to convey with my use of the word. While in that very post you link an article that makes the connection inescapable & irrefutable. What are your readers supposed to make of this? Certainly not what you are making of it. See above. I'm not a fan of "Washington Times," ... Typical well-poisoning. The study shows what it shows, regardless of whether or not you are a "fan" of the newspaper that publishes the story. And it was an Associated Press wire story, which means it could have appeared in any of hundreds of news outlets throughout the country. The link just happens to be to the Washington Times. Ergo, your disdain for the Washington Times is totally beside the point. Why even mention it if not, as I said, to try to poison the well? If you're going to take a swipe at a source, why don't you go after the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, which is the entity that conducted the study? ... but taking the story for what it contains--two things stand out. 1) The self-congratulatory Eric Hawkins, spokesman for the LDS Church, who gleefully confuses correlation for causation. He no more "confuses correlation for causation" than you do. Your assumption that the state laws have nothing to do with the outcome is no more obvious than is his assumption that they do. 2) The cold hard reality posed by Melva Sine, president of the Utah Restaurant Association: Utah has a low per-capita rate of alcohol-related death (essentially tied with Virginia and Nebraska) because Utah has a disproportionately low number of alcohol consumers. I haven't disputed that the favorable statistics are in some measure influenced by a lower-than-average number of alcohol consumers. But I'm also confident that the state's liquor control laws influence the outcome. I challenge you to prove that they do not. Not because of the ridiculous state liquor laws the LDS Church champions (as the article makes clear). Prove that the laws have nothing to do with it. And when I reflect on the number of people in our state who do not die from causes related to alcohol consumption, the constant whine that our liquor-control laws are "ridiculous" rings quite hollow to me. To put it another way, I have little sympathy for those who would put their own convenience in their personal pursuit of pleasure above considerations of public safety and well-being. If you adjusted the denominator to eliminate non-drinkers in Utah and other states participating in the study, Utah would be somewhere in the middle, not the bottom. And what does that tell us about Utah's liquor laws? It tells us they're no more effective at preventing alcohol-related deaths than the laws of most other states. I believe it tells us that the alcohol-consumption in the state poses such a menace that we need the laws in place to protect the public. Arguably, if anything, they should be more stringent to provide even greater protection to the public. I note that of the 11 states measured in the study, the one with the highest incidence of alcohol-related deaths is New Mexico, which is a neighbor to Utah. (There are no other states in the group that border Utah, and California is the only other western state among the 11.) If that indicates a tendency in the mountain-states region, maybe the deaths in Utah caused by alcohol consumption would be much higher than average were it not for the laws in Utah. At this point, you have no greater substantiation for your conclusion than I do for mine. Edited March 19, 2014 by Scott Lloyd
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted March 19, 2014 Posted March 19, 2014 Is long life really a blessing?For you, probably not.
The Nehor Posted March 19, 2014 Posted March 19, 2014 For you, probably not.Not quite sure how to take that.
seriously honestly Posted March 19, 2014 Posted March 19, 2014 I think the laws are more then "presumably influenced" by the Mormon church, especially since the article states that the Mormon chruch "issued a sweeping defense of Utah's liquor laws, calling on state lawmakers to leave them alone." Honeslty, I think the LDS church needs to back off and the liquor laws need to be relaxed. It's ridiculous when my family and I aren't allowed to eat lunch somewhere because they serve alcohol at their bar (which doesn't open for another 5 hours) and at the time my sister and brother weren't 21.
Scott Lloyd Posted March 19, 2014 Author Posted March 19, 2014 I think the laws are more then "presumably influenced" by the Mormon church, especially since the article states that the Mormon chruch "issued a sweeping defense of Utah's liquor laws, calling on state lawmakers to leave them alone." Again, no one here has denied that the laws are to some degree influenced by the LDS culture. Certainly not I. And, in case you're not getting the message, I don't consider that a thing to be ashamed of. Honeslty, I think the LDS church needs to back off and the liquor laws need to be relaxed. It's ridiculous when my family and I aren't allowed to eat lunch somewhere because they serve alcohol at their bar (which doesn't open for another 5 hours) and at the time my sister and brother weren't 21. I'll say to you what I said to Five Solas above: I have little sympathy for those who would put their own convenience in their personal pursuit of pleasure above considerations of public safety and well-being.
seriously honestly Posted March 19, 2014 Posted March 19, 2014 Again, no one here has denied that the laws are to some degree influenced by the LDS culture. Certainly not I. And, in case you're not getting the message, I don't consider that a thing to be ashamed of. I'll say to you what I said to Five Solas above: I'm just saying it's not something you have to "presume". As far not having "sympathy for those who would put their own convenience in their personal pursuit of pleasure above considerations of public safety and well-being"--how does denying lunch to someone because the establishment sell alcohol contribute to the safety and well-being of the public? Again, all we wanted (including my under aged, TBM sister and brother) was lunch. We weren't there for a drink, but because of UT liquor laws, we weren't even allowed to stay there and have a sandwich. You don't see the ridiculousness of that?
Scott Lloyd Posted March 19, 2014 Author Posted March 19, 2014 I'm just saying it's not something you have to "presume". By my use of that word, I'm saying I'm fairly certain of it, but I haven't done any scientific research on it or conducted any empirical studies. Perhaps you have. What does it matter? I'm not denying it. As far not having "sympathy for those who would put their own convenience in their personal pursuit of pleasure above considerations of public safety and well-being"--how does denying lunch to someone because the establishment sell alcohol contribute to the safety and well-being of the public? Again, all we wanted (including my under aged, TBM sister and brother) was lunch. We weren't there for a drink, but because of UT liquor laws, we weren't even allowed to stay there and have a sandwich. You don't see the ridiculousness of that? I live and work in Utah. The availability of restaurants of all sorts appears limitless. That somebody may have to go somewhere other than a bar for lunch does not impress me as a good reason for discarding laws which may well be contributing to the state having the nation's lowest level of alcohol-related deaths.
seriously honestly Posted March 19, 2014 Posted March 19, 2014 By my use of that word, I'm saying I'm fairly certain of it, but I haven't done any scientific research on it or conducted any empirical studies. Perhaps you have. What does it matter? I'm not denying it. I live and work in Utah. The availability of restaurants of all sorts appears limitless. That somebody may have to go somewhere other than a bar for lunch does not impress me as a good reason for discarding laws which may well be contributing to the state having the nation's lowest level of alcohol-related deaths. How does that contribute to the safty of the public? How does not allowing someone under 21 to have lunch somewhere factor into lowering alcohol related deaths? You haven't answered that. 1
Damien the Leper Posted March 19, 2014 Posted March 19, 2014 Not enough alcohol in the alcohol to do anything. Drinking in Utah is like drinking O'Doul's at an Easter Vigil party.
Scott Lloyd Posted March 19, 2014 Author Posted March 19, 2014 How does that contribute to the safty of the public? How does not allowing someone under 21 to have lunch somewhere factor into lowering alcohol related deaths? You haven't answered that.Maybe it does, maybe it doesn't. My point is that your having to go to McDonald's instead of a beer joint for lunch does not all by itself constitute a reason for revising the state's liquor laws.
thatjimguy Posted March 19, 2014 Posted March 19, 2014 Yet Utah is the highest use of anti-depressants in the US. Does this have to do with Mormonism? Well, I do not think it is because people are depressed because they are not perfect as critics say. Could it be a recreational drug thing? A Mormon may not be able to have alcohol to get that high, but if they can get a doctor to percribe you meds, they may be justifying themselves off the hook to the letter of the law. (Even though they probably know better)
seriously honestly Posted March 19, 2014 Posted March 19, 2014 Maybe it does, maybe it doesn't. My point is that your having to go to McDonald's instead of a beer joint for lunch does not all by itself constitute a reason for revising the state's liquor laws. 1)That's an incredibly weak argument and 2) it wasn't a "beer joint"; it was a sandwich place that my little Mormon sister happened to notice and pickout (because she likes sandwiches), and it wasn't until we were in there that we could see it had a bar towards the back, and 3) said bar wasn't even open. So again, how does that contribute to public safety? 1
omni Posted March 20, 2014 Posted March 20, 2014 If you adjusted the denominator to eliminate non-drinkers in Utah and other states participating in the study, Utah would be somewhere in the middle, not the bottom. And what does that tell us about Utah's liquor laws? It tells us they're no more effective at preventing alcohol-related deaths than the laws of most other states. And it tells us Hawkins spokesmanship in the matter is just spin & chest-thumping. --Erik Why use logic when none is clearly needed? It's quite obvious the low alcohol-related deaths are a result of the "Zion Curtain". No doubt countless lives (and at least as many testimonies) have been saved by shielding the eye's of the innocent from the offending view of poured alcohol. I'm sure our righteous priesthood lead...er, I mean state legislatures are working on and will soon present the relevant data to back me up. I await with bated breath... 1
Walden Posted March 20, 2014 Posted March 20, 2014 (edited) I believe it tells us that the alcohol-consumption in the state poses such a menace that we need the laws in place to protect the public. Arguably, if anything, they should be more stringent to provide even greater protection to the public. I note that of the 11 states measured in the study, the one with the highest incidence of alcohol-related deaths is New Mexico, which is a neighbor to Utah. (There are no other states in the group that border Utah, and California is the only other western state among the 11.) If that indicates a tendency in the mountain-states region, maybe the deaths in Utah caused by alcohol consumption would be much higher than average were it not for the laws in Utah. Yes, bring back Prohibition....it worked so well the first time around! Edited March 20, 2014 by Walden
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