Bob Crockett Posted March 14, 2014 Posted March 14, 2014 (edited) According to Sam Harris and Richard Dawkins, morality exists as a matter of game theory and evolutionary biology. There are fundamental reasons for the burden of marriage and the avoidance of adultery, for example. However, I believe that God is the one who establishes the principles of game theory. LIke the Golden Rule. Edited March 14, 2014 by Bob Crockett
jchristopher Posted March 14, 2014 Posted March 14, 2014 Can we at least agree on the idea that there is a way for each of us to do what is most beneficial for all of us, even if some of us don't know what that is? How could one really come to know what is truly most beneficial for all of us? How could they be sure that their conclusion is correct and not tainted or imperfect in some way?
Calm Posted March 14, 2014 Posted March 14, 2014 Holy Crap!! you are almost at 40K posts. impressive!It would be much more so if I had a life.Just think, i could be spending all this time writing stuff for FairMormon...now that would be impressive.This probably should be on the sloth as a virtue thread (that was the topic, right? Demonstrating the eternal spiritual value of imitating various vegetables?). 1
Ahab Posted March 14, 2014 Posted March 14, 2014 How could one really come to know what is truly most beneficial for all of us? How could they be sure that their conclusion is correct and not tainted or imperfect in some way?It's referred to as intelligence. And a lot of it.You know you want it.
jchristopher Posted March 14, 2014 Posted March 14, 2014 "What other motivator is there for morality without a hope for a pleasant afterlife" How about collective social security? If both you and your neighbor are moral there is little need for you to lock up your valuables from your neighbor. As I posted earlier morality (without recourse to God) grew from the need for group cohesion. Stop thinking so 21st century. All of these concepts have been evolving for thousands of years and began at a time when an individual, living alone, had little chance of survival. Man didn't develop packs like wolves because we wanted someone to talk to at night we develop the complex social system we inherited based on the needs of survival. If I couldn't trust you to watch my wife and children when I went to hunt I didn't hunt. And if you couldn't trust that I wouldn't steal your belongings when you were gathering food you needed to bring everything with you or give up gathering food My mistake. But morality entails a lot more than just living among each other civilly. Morality is needed to build unity and peace amongst each other, to lift each other up and help us come unto Christ and partake of His redeeming love. Morality is the way God revealed to us whereby we might accomplish all these things.
jchristopher Posted March 14, 2014 Posted March 14, 2014 But the debate if God's law is not actually created by him, rather it is the name of the law that is distinct from God that he follows, then God and morality are distinct. God is God in virtue of his moral living. Morality is achieved by living a law that exists distinct from God. What is this man made morality you speak of? Saying something is moral does not make it moral if morality is correlated with action contingent with an external law. Also if the principal of morality is outcome based then it would not appear absolute and fixed from our perspective as it would tolerate a wide range of varying action. I get what you're saying, I mean, I believe God is God because he embraces eternal truths, but I would have to say there is not any morality without God. There can be morality without a belief in God, but not without the existence of God. I say this because if God is not, then we are not, and if we and God are not, then there is no morality. Man-made morality is a doctrine or code of conduct created and put forth by man- a society or some other group of people I don't think I disagree with your last paragraph, however, I'm a little confused about what you mean in the first sentence of that paragraph
jchristopher Posted March 14, 2014 Posted March 14, 2014 A pleasant mortality. There's a reason that the eternal laws upon which God operates are revealed to us in this life. We are supposed to apply them here and achieve happiness, not wait for the next life to be happy.Sometimes we come to recognize their benefit through God, sometime we come to recognize their benefit through society (although I would argue this occurrs less often). I think I agree with what you're saying
jchristopher Posted March 14, 2014 Posted March 14, 2014 Which again contradicts the D&C which talks about us being coeternal with God. Take that for what you will... we just dont know enough to have more than a speculative conversation about it. No it doesn't. I said "if" God is not, which he is, then we are not. But God is, and so are we...coeternal with God...at least our intelligences. But the development of our intelligences are dependent upon God. I think we do know enough to talk about some of these kinds of things.
jchristopher Posted March 14, 2014 Posted March 14, 2014 That is true but it does not answer the question: Does it emanate from God or is it an outside principle he uses? Maybe both? Could we know or live that moral code if God did not reveal it to us? If so, how?
jaxenro Posted March 14, 2014 Author Posted March 14, 2014 (edited) "Maybe both? Could we know or live that moral code if God did not reveal it to us? If so, how?" Before answering that wouldn't we need to define what that moral code consists of and understand it? If we accept that a basic moral code was required for bands of early humans to survive, that without this unit cohesion was lost and the band did not survive, then it would naturally follow that those humans that did survive to reproduce had in some way or manner that basic moral code genetically implanted into them. What we refer to as "instinct" in animals in how they interact within their species in group settings could easily also be present in humans. Everyone here seems to be under the understanding that a basic moral code is learned behaviour but what if it isn't? What if the basic moral code is instinctive and the advanced applications of those basic codes are learned? Edited March 14, 2014 by jaxenro
Bikeemikey Posted March 14, 2014 Posted March 14, 2014 Maybe both? Could we know or live that moral code if God did not reveal it to us? If so, how?That's a concern about moral implementation, not origins.
jchristopher Posted March 14, 2014 Posted March 14, 2014 That's a concern about moral implementation, not origins. Could morality exist if there was no one around to be moral? What really is morality? For discussion's sake, I would assert that moral code is a separate and distinct thing from the eternal truths of the universe that are independent of God. Therefore, without God disseminating the moral code that enables us to know and live according to eternal truths, there would be no morality
mfbukowski Posted March 14, 2014 Posted March 14, 2014 "Maybe both? Could we know or live that moral code if God did not reveal it to us? If so, how?" Before answering that wouldn't we need to define what that moral code consists of and understand it? If we accept that a basic moral code was required for bands of early humans to survive, that without this unit cohesion was lost and the band did not survive, then it would naturally follow that those humans that did survive to reproduce had in some way or manner that basic moral code genetically implanted into them. What we refer to as "instinct" in animals in how they interact within their species in group settings could easily also be present in humans. Everyone here seems to be under the understanding that a basic moral code is learned behaviour but what if it isn't? What if the basic moral code is instinctive and the advanced applications of those basic codes are learned? Don't know how you conclude that. If it evolved, we're wired for it. It didn't fall out of the sky. But I am saying that both are true- that it evolved and God gave it to us. Those are perfectly compatible
mfbukowski Posted March 14, 2014 Posted March 14, 2014 (edited) Could morality exist if there was no one around to be moral? What really is morality? For discussion's sake, I would assert that moral code is a separate and distinct thing from the eternal truths of the universe that are independent of God. Therefore, without God disseminating the moral code that enables us to know and live according to eternal truths, there would be no morality You live the moral code because it makes your life happy, and making babies and living happily with them is what makes us Godlike. It just works. It's not that complicated. Humans are social beings and so is God, because he is Human as well. The Godhead itself is a family unit. It's all inside us and we come that way. Call it evolution or call it God's plan, it is all the same in practical terms. Edited March 14, 2014 by mfbukowski 1
jaxenro Posted March 14, 2014 Author Posted March 14, 2014 But I am saying that both are true- that it evolved and God gave it to us. Those are perfectly compatibleActually that was where I was going eventually
jchristopher Posted March 14, 2014 Posted March 14, 2014 You live the moral code because it makes your life happy, and making babies and living happily with them is what makes us Godlike. It just works.It's not that complicated.Humans are social beings and so is God, because he is Human as well. The Godhead itself is a family unit. It's all inside us and we come that way. Call it evolution or call it God's plan, it is all the same in practical terms.Agreed. It is quite simple. However, there is something called the different between animal instincts and The light of Christ or our moral conscience
Bill “Papa” Lee Posted March 14, 2014 Posted March 14, 2014 Absolutely. What a sad thought that humans are incapable of being moral unless there is some supreme being to bless us if we do and to punish us if we don't.Morality is something that depends (or comes from) upbringing and the light of Christ. Here in the Western world, we all grew up in a Judeo-Christian world view. So even them unbelieving were raised in such an environment. As such our morals come from God no matter how you believe.
Flyonthewall Posted March 15, 2014 Posted March 15, 2014 The behavior animals display that we could label as "moral" is arguably a type of morality, but it could just be like the blind squirrel that finally finds a nut - coincidence. If you overlay animal behavior on human behavior, it does not look very moral at all.
Calm Posted March 15, 2014 Posted March 15, 2014 (edited) The behavior animals display that we could label as "moral" is arguably a type of morality, but it could just be like the blind squirrel that finally finds a nut - coincidence.If you overlay animal behavior on human behavior, it does not look very moral at all.I thought squirrels used their noses.... Learn something new every day...or try to at least:http://ecotheo.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/Jacobs_AB91.pdf Edited March 15, 2014 by calmoriah
Tiki Posted March 15, 2014 Posted March 15, 2014 Plato dealt with this issue in "Euthyphro" and it has been called the Euthyphro Dilemma. I think before you all get going on this topic you should do a quick perusal of the dilemma on wikipedia. Here's the intro: Check it out, so that you can use as part of your discussion the 2500 years that people have been thinking and writing on this topic.As it's recorded in the Book of Mormon:Moroni 7:1212 Wherefore, all things which are good cometh of God; and that which is evil cometh of the devil; for the devil is an enemy unto God, and fighteth against him continually, and inviteth and enticeth to sin, and to do that which is evil continually.Thus Morality, being good, came from God, not man. And it comes from God through what he has ordained to be His pattern of revealing that which is good, revealing it through His Prophets called by Him, not by man. And when God reveals his truths through His Prophets, he sets up an organization so that His children, being us, can't act morally with each other and with God. Or we become immoral.So no, morality does not exist without a belief in God, unless you're belief is uneducated about the source of that which is good, which was Plato's dilemma-because Plato lived in a society that did not have current revelation from God. Plato had some truth, but like all religions, or philosophies which do, all are based on past revealed truths from God but are shadows of that fullness due to societies rejecting God.This is why The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is a Restoration of the Truth, not based on old traditions which are shadows of the rejected truths from the past.And if you don't believe in God or in his existence or having to answer to Him after your dead for your actions in your life, your attempts to live morally will only be induced by man-made laws out of fear of being fined, imprisoned or executed for your crimes. And the more society disbelieves in God or religion, the less man-made laws will be based on a moral code of conduct on how we should treat each other.
Bikeemikey Posted March 15, 2014 Posted March 15, 2014 (edited) Could morality exist if there was no one around to be moral? What really is morality? For discussion's sake, I would assert that moral code is a separate and distinct thing from the eternal truths of the universe that are independent of God. Therefore, without God disseminating the moral code that enables us to know and live according to eternal truths, there would be no moralityThat's kinda kind of like arguing if gravity would exist in earth if no one was around to fall!Or if a tree falls and no one is around to hear it did it make a sound. Edited March 15, 2014 by Bikeemikey
jaxenro Posted March 15, 2014 Author Posted March 15, 2014 "Could morality exist if there was no one around to be moral?' Yes if morality is an independant entity.
Bikeemikey Posted March 15, 2014 Posted March 15, 2014 "Could morality exist if there was no one around to be moral?' Yes if morality is an independant entity. Exactly. It has nothing to do with God. God lives it but does not create it.
jchristopher Posted March 15, 2014 Posted March 15, 2014 That's kinda kind of like arguing if gravity would exist in earth if no one was around to fall!Or if a tree falls and no one is around to hear it did it make a sound.Sounds like you didn't make it past my first sentence
jchristopher Posted March 15, 2014 Posted March 15, 2014 "Could morality exist if there was no one around to be moral?'Yes if morality is an independant entity.Sounds like you didn't make it past the first sentence of my post either. Let me ask you this: is morality or a moral code the same thing as eternal truth? Or does moral code help us find the truth, live by it, and understand it better? I'm suggesting that morals are connected with God, but eternal truths are independent of him.
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