mfbukowski Posted March 18, 2014 Posted March 18, 2014 Friends I have had that do not believe in God have taken great offense at time to the thought that religion is necessary to be a "good" or moral person, an incorrect thought that I at times have succumbed to. If you mean "morality" as ethical standards or a principle-based system to navigate life, I would say it exists without a belief in God. As offspring of God, we can trance innate human morals of love, loyalty, and respect back to our Maker. I believe we all have the ability to be moral human beings regardless of where we are in our faith/believe journey. There are anomalies to this answer, such as physiological or physical issues that can obscure our ability to decide right from wrong. I don't have an answer for such issues. One does not need a believe in Deity to use his or her agency in a manner that is morally in line with God's will. Morality evolved and is essential to society's existence, and therefore for the existence of humankind. You can see that as God directed or not. It's as simple as that as far as I am concerned. I choose to see it as God directed, because I have seen how he directs my life.
Stone holm Posted March 18, 2014 Posted March 18, 2014 Get a little imagination for Pete's sake. There could be, and probably are, multiple universes. The idea that humans can actually know about something God does not know about or control, and that we can define his limits, is ridiculous.There probably are other universes, but the question as I understood it was about our Heavenly Father, and we appear to have teachings concerning Him which firmly put Him in this universe.
jchristopher Posted March 18, 2014 Posted March 18, 2014 You said that with out divine creation there would be no gravity. Not sure how else to read this.I said gravity was dependent upon creation, not creation upon gravity
jchristopher Posted March 18, 2014 Posted March 18, 2014 Morality evolved and is essential to society's existence, and therefore for the existence of humankind.You can see that as God directed or not. It's as simple as that as far as I am concerned.I choose to see it as God directed, because I have seen how he directs my life.If morality is in any way connected with good and evil, then morality does not evolve. The way we apply correct principals can change a little over time, but the principals and doctrine behind the application cannot
Ahab Posted March 18, 2014 Posted March 18, 2014 Get a little imagination for Pete's sake.There could be, and probably are, multiple universes. The idea that humans can actually know about something God does not know about or control, and that we can define his limits, is ridiculous.Back when I was younger the uni in the word universe referred to the idea that the universe was and is and always will be the one place where all other places exist. And yes I know that not everybody believed that back then, but at least it made a lot more sense than some ideas that come from some people's imaginations. AndLet's just say that there has always been some place where God lives, and has lived, and will continue to live. And not just in some people's imaginations.
Stone holm Posted March 18, 2014 Posted March 18, 2014 Back when I was younger the uni in the word universe referred to the idea that the universe was and is and always will be the one place where all other places exist. And yes I know that not everybody believed that back then, but at least it made a lot more sense than some ideas that come from some people's imaginations. AndLet's just say that there has always been some place where God lives, and has lived, and will continue to live. And not just in some people's imaginations. I assume that he was using it the way modern astrophysicists tend to use it, which would allow for there being universes outside our particular bubble of time. I refer to that because what little astrophysics I can understand or misunderstand suggests that as you travel towards the end of space as we know it you somehow get time warped or something so you never actually can get outside it. May have totally butchered that scientific concept, but you get the drift.
Stone holm Posted March 18, 2014 Posted March 18, 2014 Ummm...you lost me. I would have to disagree that the reason an increasing percentage of people feel religion has little significance in their lives is due to the immorality of publicized "religious personages." The biggest factor for this, by far, is the disintegration of the traditional family unit. Broken homes are becoming more common that whole ones. Children do not have a solid foundation to build their lives on with a mother and father who are faithful to each other and who teach their children by word and deed to love God and put Him first. What other reason is there for morality than to achieve peace and happiness in this life and exaltation in the life to come? Where did you get the notion of a "god who is indifferent to suffering?" Are you saying that the inception of morality takes place in the heart of man??? Please explain further The disintegration of the family unit, is merely a symptom of the disintegration of community cohesiveness, which in turn is just a symptom of an economic system which places no value on community or family, which in turn is a symptom of religions which no longer are advocating effective community action, but are concentrating solely on individual atomistic perfection, sexual purity, and individual material success as a measure of righteousness, and ignoring what the economic system may actually be doing to families and community. Something like covering three holes in a collander and expecting it to still carry water.
Bikeemikey Posted March 18, 2014 Posted March 18, 2014 I said gravity was dependent upon creation, not creation upon gravityYep. Then I disagreed and showed you why I thought differently. Creation is clearly dependent on gravity. It's the thing that holds mater together.
Bikeemikey Posted March 18, 2014 Posted March 18, 2014 The disintegration of the family unit, is merely a symptom of the disintegration of community cohesiveness, which in turn is just a symptom of an economic system which places no value on community or family, which in turn is a symptom of religions which no longer are advocating effective community action, but are concentrating solely on individual atomistic perfection, sexual purity, and individual material success as a measure of righteousness, and ignoring what the economic system may actually be doing to families and community. Something like covering three holes in a collander and expecting it to still carry water.Well articulated!
Ahab Posted March 18, 2014 Posted March 18, 2014 Well articulated!Yep, because he used the colander analogy, which never fails.
Bikeemikey Posted March 18, 2014 Posted March 18, 2014 Yep, because he used the colander analogy, which never fails.As an analogy amateur I always fall prey to the "Dear Liza" error. That is I opt for analogy through a holey bucket vs analogy through colander.Gets me every time.
mfbukowski Posted March 18, 2014 Posted March 18, 2014 There probably are other universes, but the question as I understood it was about our Heavenly Father, and we appear to have teachings concerning Him which firmly put Him in this universe.Oh I would love to see that one.
mfbukowski Posted March 18, 2014 Posted March 18, 2014 (edited) If morality is in any way connected with good and evil, then morality does not evolve. The way we apply correct principals can change a little over time, but the principals and doctrine behind the application cannotI don't want to get into it with you. That is a sectarian position derived from Neoplatonism and is not a Restoration concept. Good and evil do not exist independent of behaviors. To believe so is to believe in pagan Greek philosophy derived from Plato. That idea is totally non-biblical. But as I said I don't want to get into it with you. Study some Plato, I would suggest, and you will see that he agrees with you. Unfortunately Plato was not LDS. Plato saw God as an unchanging Form of Goodness. That is not the God we worship, we worship our Heavenly Father who is a being much like us in many ways, but is infinitely above us in wisdom, love etc. He is not an unchanging vague principle floating nowhere in the universe. Edited March 18, 2014 by mfbukowski
mfbukowski Posted March 18, 2014 Posted March 18, 2014 Back when I was younger the uni in the word universe referred to the idea that the universe was and is and always will be the one place where all other places exist. And yes I know that not everybody believed that back then, but at least it made a lot more sense than some ideas that come from some people's imaginations. AndLet's just say that there has always been some place where God lives, and has lived, and will continue to live. And not just in some people's imaginations.I don't recall ever saying He was anything else
Stone holm Posted March 19, 2014 Posted March 19, 2014 Oh I would love to see that one.Nigh unto Kolob
mfbukowski Posted March 19, 2014 Posted March 19, 2014 Nigh unto KolobBZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZWrong answer.Try again?
Gervin Posted March 19, 2014 Posted March 19, 2014 Creation is clearly dependent on gravity. It's the thing that holds mater together.would that be the mater dolorosa?Then, yes. 1
Stone holm Posted March 19, 2014 Posted March 19, 2014 BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZWrong answer.Try again?And you believe located in another universe why?
mfbukowski Posted March 19, 2014 Posted March 19, 2014 would that be the mater dolorosa?Then, yes.No, THAT would be "gravitas" 1
mfbukowski Posted March 19, 2014 Posted March 19, 2014 (edited) And you believe located in another universe why?The whole point is it doesn't even remotely imply that God is restricted to "this" universe. It repeats "There is NO END to ____" again and again. The clear implication is that God is NOT restricted by paltry little universes like ours. It says that if we could get to Kolob in"the twinkling of an eye" it would still take eternities to get to where God's powers end, and even then we would not get there. In no way does that imply that God's power is restricted in any way!! For the benefit of those unfamiliar with the hymn: 1. If you could hie to Kolob In the twinkling of an eye, And then continue onward With that same speed to fly, Do you think that you could ever, Through all eternity, Find out the generation Where Gods began to be? 2. Or see the grand beginning, Where space did not extend? Or view the last creation, Where Gods and matter end? Methinks the Spirit whispers, "No man has found 'pure space,' Nor seen the outside curtains, Where nothing has a place." 3. The works of God continue, And worlds and lives abound; Improvement and progression Have one eternal round. There is no end to matter; There is no end to space; There is no end to spirit; There is no end to race. 4. There is no end to virtue; There is no end to might; There is no end to wisdom; There is no end to light. There is no end to union; There is no end to youth; There is no end to priesthood; There is no end to truth. 5. There is no end to glory; There is no end to love; There is no end to being; There is no death above. There is no end to glory; There is no end to love; There is no end to being; There is no death above. Text: William W. Phelps, 1792-1872 Does that sound like we restrict God to earth alone as the critics would have you believe? "Kolob" is believed to be a physical location for "heaven". Don't laugh. If Christ has a body, where is he? Can Catholics tell me where Christ is, since he has a body? Edited March 19, 2014 by mfbukowski 1
Gervin Posted March 19, 2014 Posted March 19, 2014 No, THAT would be "gravitas" Ora pro nobis, sancta Dei Genetrix Yes, let's get back to Gravity (bringing in good points, post-award) 1
Stone holm Posted March 19, 2014 Posted March 19, 2014 The whole point is it doesn't even remotely imply that God is restricted to "this" universe. It repeats "There is NO END to ____" again and again. The clear implication is that God is NOT restricted by paltry little universes like ours. It says that if we could get to Kolob in"the twinkling of an eye" it would still take eternities to get to where God's powers end, and even then we would not get there. In no way does that imply that God's power is restricted in any way!! For the benefit of those unfamiliar with the hymn: Does that sound like we restrict God to earth alone as the critics would have you believe? "Kolob" is believed to be a physical location for "heaven". Don't laugh. If Christ has a body, where is he? Can Catholics tell me where Christ is, since he has a body? No Kolob is not taught as the physical location of heaven, if you mean the Celestial Kingdom. Nigh, or near, Kolob is where the Celestial Kingdom in which Heavenly Father dwells, our heaven or Celestial Kingdom is right here on a converted Earth. When I said Nigh unto Kolob was referring to where JS said HF lived, which is where the hymn takes its name from. Whether a celestial being can travel between universes is I suppose up for grabs.
bcuzbcuz Posted March 19, 2014 Posted March 19, 2014 Many here define morality as a noun. I see it as a verb.It is not a thing or a place, it is a mode of travel. I have watched people in Chilé, the US, Egypt, Sicily, Germany, Thailand and many other countries, display their devotion to their god or gods. I saw a widow, in Sicily, weep as the statue of the Virgin Mary passed in a procession. I saw a shop owner, in Cairo, close his shop and get out his prayer mat in answer to the call for prayer from the minaret. I saw a stall attendent clasp her hands together before a small shrine, in Bangkok, at the close of her working day. Most have no idea what the Mormon definition of morality is but they take their supplications to their dieties in humble attempts to be heard.If there is one definition of morality, I have yet to see it. I think there are many paths. Quibling over which one is best is probably a waste of time.
mfbukowski Posted March 19, 2014 Posted March 19, 2014 No Kolob is not taught as the physical location of heaven, if you mean the Celestial Kingdom. Nigh, or near, Kolob is where the Celestial Kingdom in which Heavenly Father dwells, our heaven or Celestial Kingdom is right here on a converted Earth. When I said Nigh unto Kolob was referring to where JS said HF lived, which is where the hymn takes its name from. Whether a celestial being can travel between universes is I suppose up for grabs.I was simplifying for non-members
MiserereNobis Posted March 19, 2014 Posted March 19, 2014 If Christ has a body, where is he? Can Catholics tell me where Christ is, since he has a body? He's sitting on the right hand of the Father (note: Jesus resurrected pre-Ascension is different than post-Ascension)
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