Does Morality Exist Without A Belief In God?

[Bikeemikey]

Sounds like you didn't make it past the first sentence of my post either. Let me ask you this: is morality or a moral code the same thing as eternal truth? Or does moral code help us find the truth, live by it, and understand it better? I'm suggesting that morals are connected with God, but eternal truths are independent of him.

Got what you were suggesting, I just disagree!

[jaxenro]

"Exactly. It has nothing to do with God. God lives it but does not create it."

 

I said yes if morality was an independant entity. Is it? Can morality exist outside of the exercise if it?
 

[Bikeemikey]

"Exactly. It has nothing to do with God. God lives it but does not create it."

I said yes if morality was an independant entity. Is it? Can morality exist outside of the exercise if it?

Yep. Just like gravity.

[mfbukowski]

Agreed. It is quite simple. However, there is something called the different between animal instincts and The light of Christ or our moral conscience

If you say so. Yet animals are commanded to fill the measure of their creation and have joy therein.

Go figure.

[mfbukowski]

Yep. Just like gravity.

How much do you weigh on your morality scale?

They are obviously not the same. One is objectively measurable and the other is not.

Edited March 16, 2014 by mfbukowski

[Bikeemikey]

How much do you weigh on your morality scale?

They are obviously not the same. One is objectively measurable and the other is not.

I think we trust in God to implement some kind of moral measurement.

I think that they are the same purely in the sense that moral law is a constant in the same way that gravity is a constant; even with no one around to act or be observed.

As more my moral weight - I'd say I'm a feather weight.

[bcuzbcuz]

Sounds like you didn't make it past the first sentence of my post either. Let me ask you this: is morality or a moral code the same thing as eternal truth? Or does moral code help us find the truth, live by it, and understand it better? I'm suggesting that morals are connected with God, but eternal truths are independent of him.

I would like to acquaint you with the grave stela of Nefer-seshem-re, who lived during the reign of king Teti, around 2345 to 2333 BC. That's a good 1700 years before the Torah was committed to written form. Did this man know of any morality from the God you talk about?

His relatives wrote, upon his death:

"I spoke ma'at (what is right) and I did ma'at, I spoke well and I reported well....

I rescued the weak from the hand of one stronger than he when I was able;

I gave bread to the hungry, clothing [to the naked], a landing for the boatless.

I buried him who had no son,

I made a boat for him who had no boat,

I respected my father, I pleased my mother,

I nurtured their children."

If morality comes only from God, why did this man strive to achieve his efforts of good towards his fellow man? He neither desired a place in the Christian heaven, nor feared the Christian hell. There are no records to show any Jewish presence in Egypt at that time, so he knew nothing of Elohim or Jehovah.

And yet, his recorded record of his life would be enviable of any person striving to fulfill Christian morality. If morality only comes from God, then where did his come from?

[jaxenro]

"If morality comes only from God, why did this man strive to achieve his efforts of good towards his fellow man? He neither desired a place in the Christian heaven, nor feared the Christian hell. There are no records to show any Jewish presence in Egypt at that time, so he knew nothing of Elohim or Jehovah.

And yet, his recorded record of his life would be enviable of any person striving to fulfill Christian morality. If morality only comes from God, then where did his come from?"

 

If life comes from God where did his life come from? If God implants morality into our DNA does it not still come from God?

 

Is morality a learned behaviour, an innate behaviour, or both? What I tried to show on an earlier post is that the basic principles of morality were necessary for the survival of the hunter-gatherer social unit. Were these learned or instinctive behaviour like in a pride of lions?

[jchristopher]

Yep. Just like gravity.

Gravity is absolutely dependent on God!

[jchristopher]

"Exactly. It has nothing to do with God. God lives it but does not create it."

I said yes if morality was an independant entity. Is it? Can morality exist outside of the exercise if it?

Give me an example of something that is moral. Please

[jchristopher]

If you say so. Yet animals are commanded to fill the measure of their creation and have joy therein.

Go figure.

I forgot about that little tidbit. Interesting...well I guess that would mean they feel a lot of the same things we do by virtue of living in this world, Just on a different scale. Though I would have to say I don't think they have the moral dilemma that we do

[Stone holm]

That is a very humanistic view - we are the source of morality as we learn what benefits society?  I find that hard to accept, and while God himself may not be the source of morality in LDS theology, the eternal principles and laws he represents are the source of morality.  True morality is not man made.

Would have to disagree. Morality need have nothing to do with religion or God, but if a God is worth worshipping, then He or She must be moral. Some people get this backwards and think that morality issues from God rather than morality governing whether a being should be worshipped as a God. Humans are left to work out what is right and wrong, they cannot abdicate that duty to anyone including God.

[jchristopher]

If morality comes only from God, why did this man strive to achieve his efforts of good towards his fellow man? He neither desired a place in the Christian heaven, nor feared the Christian hell.

And yet, his recorded record of his life would be enviable of any person striving to fulfill Christian morality. If morality only comes from God, then where did his come from?

This has to do with the Mormon doctrine of pre-mortality. We lived in and were raised in the presence of our God. We were taught many things in his presence, including his great eternal plan and the purpose of mortal life. We also know that every man and woman has been given the light of Christ or the knowledge of good and evil, which is like the knowledge that Adam and Eve received after partaking of the forbidden fruit. So, although there was a veil put over our minds that shields us from a clear remembrance of the preexistence, we still have those truths deep down inside our souls. Has for this man you speak of, is quite probable that he did know our Christian God, at least in someway. We all know who he is. Just because he may not have known about Jesus Christ or the term "Christian," that doesn't mean he did not know the same God.

[Ahab]

This has to do with the Mormon doctrine of pre-mortality. We lived in and were raised in the presence of our God. We were taught many things in his presence, including his great eternal plan and the purpose of mortal life. We also know that every man and woman has been given the light of Christ or the knowledge of good and evil, which is like the knowledge that Adam and Eve received after partaking of the forbidden fruit. So, although there was a veil put over our minds that shields us from a clear remembrance of the preexistence, we still have those truths deep down inside our souls. Has for this man you speak of, is quite probable that he did know our Christian God, at least in someway. We all know who he is. Just because he may not have known about Jesus Christ or the term "Christian," that doesn't mean he did not know the same God.

As someone else pointed out earlier, everything good is of God. Even if someone else doesn't realize that. Even if someone else thinks something that is good doesn't have any connection or association with God. It's still true even if people deny it.

[mfbukowski]

I think we trust in God to implement some kind of moral measurement.

I think that they are the same purely in the sense that moral law is a constant in the same way that gravity is a constant; even with no one around to act or be observed.

As more my moral weight - I'd say I'm a feather weight.

Your comment was that morality was just as objective as gravity.

 

Now you are saying that only God has a moral measuring device.  We can measure gravity.  Therefore clearly morality is not as objective as gravity.

 

I never once said or implied that God was incapable of judging our moral standing fairly.

[Bikeemikey]

Your comment was that morality was just as objective as gravity.

Now you are saying that only God has a moral measuring device. We can measure gravity. Therefore clearly morality is not as objective as gravity.

I never once said or implied that God was incapable of judging our moral standing fairly.

Well then I miss spoke. I have not meant to suggest that morality was objective. Simply that it was a principal as real as gravity, distinct from god.

As for the poster who said gravity is dependent on god. I simply disagree.

[jchristopher]

Would have to disagree. Morality need have nothing to do with religion or God, but if a God is worth worshipping, then He or She must be moral. Some people get this backwards and think that morality issues from God rather than morality governing whether a being should be worshipped as a God. Humans are left to work out what is right and wrong, they cannot abdicate that duty to anyone including God.

If morality has nothing to do with God, then why must of God be moral in order to be worthy of worship? So you are saying that human beings must determine what they think is moral and what is not, and that therein is morality?

[jchristopher]

As someone else pointed out earlier, everything good is of God. Even if someone else doesn't realize that. Even if someone else thinks something that is good doesn't have any connection or association with God. It's still true even if people deny it.

True as true can be. Morality is good. Everything that is good comes from God. The concept that it does not is absurd. Going back to the original post,"Does morality exist without a belief in God,"I would say of course it does, But not without his existence

[jchristopher]

Well then I miss spoke. I have not meant to suggest that morality was objective. Simply that it was a principal as real as gravity, distinct from god.

As for the poster who said gravity is dependent on god. I simply disagree.

So then you assert that God was not the framer of this earth? If gravity is independent, then does it exist outside of this or any other world God has created?

[jaxenro]

So then you assert that God was not the framer of this earth? If gravity is independent, then does it exist outside of this or any other world God has created?

So are there physical laws that are co eternal with God, or did God create the physical laws?

[jchristopher]

So are there physical laws that are co eternal with God, or did God create the physical laws?

In any source you reference, the definition of gravity always involves the interaction of terrestrial or celestial bodies. I'm not a scientist, but it seems to me as though there is no gravity outside of a planet or star's gravitational pull. If this is true, then I would have to conclude that gravity is not co-eternal with God, but a law of his creation. Do you believe all the stars and planets were created by God?

[jaxenro]

In any source you reference, the definition of gravity always involves the interaction of terrestrial or celestial bodies. I'm not a scientist, but it seems to me as though there is no gravity outside of a planet or star's gravitational pull. If this is true, then I would have to conclude that gravity is not co-eternal with God, but a law of his creation. Do you believe all the stars and planets were created by God?

Interesting question. We know Jesus Christ created this world and He does nothing but what He sees the Father do so did the Son create this world and the Father others? And does the Father have a Father seeing as He also laid down His life and took it up again?

Let's just say I think they were all created by the power of the priesthood

[Stone holm]

If morality has nothing to do with God, then why must of God be moral in order to be worthy of worship? So you are saying that human beings must determine what they think is moral and what is not, and that therein is morality?

 

Would you really worship an immoral God?  I realize that in the past many religions have worshipped immoral Gods, but I do not think that is the future of religion.  The immorality of various publicized "religious" personages these days is what is accounting for the increased percentage of people saying that religion has little significance in their lives -- mainly because the "god" which is being pushed by these people is perceived to be immoral by many people.  If the only point of morality is to achieve Heaven by conforming to a lifestyle established by a god who is indifferent to suffering, then that is not morality.  We believe in a God who is moral and good, and we discern that by what is good and beautiful and noble in this life.  But the initial determination to be moral must come from within, it is initially formed in the human heart and eventually leads to God -- not the other way around.

[jchristopher]

Interesting question. We know Jesus Christ created this world and He does nothing but what He sees the Father do so did the Son create this world and the Father others? And does the Father have a Father seeing as He also laid down His life and took it up again?

Let's just say I think they were all created by the power of the priesthood

I believe these statements to be true, but it's not what the argument/discussion was about. It was whether gravity is co-eternal with God or not. So, do you have a response related to that?

[jaxenro]

I believe these statements to be true, but it's not what the argument/discussion was about. It was whether gravity is co-eternal with God or not. So, do you have a response related to that?

Actually you asked me if I thought God created the stars and planets so I tried to answer that. So what your really asking is did God create natural law, i.e. physics, or did He use natural law to create the Universe? I don't think we know enough to answer the former although I think the latter is true