bcuzbcuz Posted March 17, 2014 Posted March 17, 2014 If life comes from God where did his life come from? If God implants morality into our DNA does it not still come from God? Is morality a learned behaviour, an innate behaviour, or both? What I tried to show on an earlier post is that the basic principles of morality were necessary for the survival of the hunter-gatherer social unit. Were these learned or instinctive behaviour like in a pride of lions?Morality implanted into our DNA? I think you'll have to go beyond conjecture and formulate some ideas as where you can see morality implanted in DNA. The ancient Greeks viewed the ancient Egyptians (as written about by Herodotus) as the most humble and devote of any peoples on the earth. If Herodotus could evaluate their level of morality and compare it his experience in his homeland, then that would suggest that the level of morality he observed was definitely not a common factor for all peoples.But again, please provide some evidence that morality is common to all people. Personally, I don't see it.
bcuzbcuz Posted March 17, 2014 Posted March 17, 2014 This has to do with the Mormon doctrine of pre-mortality. We lived in and were raised in the presence of our God. We were taught many things in his presence, including his great eternal plan and the purpose of mortal life. We also know that every man and woman has been given the light of Christ or the knowledge of good and evil, which is like the knowledge that Adam and Eve received after partaking of the forbidden fruit. So, although there was a veil put over our minds that shields us from a clear remembrance of the preexistence, we still have those truths deep down inside our souls. Has for this man you speak of, is quite probable that he did know our Christian God, at least in someway. We all know who he is. Just because he may not have known about Jesus Christ or the term "Christian," that doesn't mean he did not know the same God.You paint with pretty broad strokes, enough so to make it meaningless. If the truths lie deeply buried within us, doesn't that give a push or nudge in a direction that wwould cancel out free will? We would automatically be pre-programmed to choose the right. I fail to see any evidence that all peoples of the earth are pre-disposed to choose the right. Do you? 1
jaxenro Posted March 17, 2014 Author Posted March 17, 2014 Morality implanted into our DNA? I think you'll have to go beyond conjecture and formulate some ideas as where you can see morality implanted in DNA. The ancient Greeks viewed the ancient Egyptians (as written about by Herodotus) as the most humble and devote of any peoples on the earth. If Herodotus could evaluate their level of morality and compare it his experience in his homeland, then that would suggest that the level of morality he observed was definitely not a common factor for all peoples.But again, please provide some evidence that morality is common to all people. Personally, I don't see it.When I get some time I will find some links for you that details the studies they are doing with newborns that seems to strongly point in that direction. I don't know if DNA is the correct term but there does seem to be some type of basic moral code we are all born with one that coincides to a degree with the three principles I posted earlier, that a moral action is one that enhances social unit cohesion
jaxenro Posted March 17, 2014 Author Posted March 17, 2014 You paint with pretty broad strokes, enough so to make it meaningless. If the truths lie deeply buried within us, doesn't that give a push or nudge in a direction that wwould cancel out free will? We would automatically be pre-programmed to choose the right. I fail to see any evidence that all peoples of the earth are pre-disposed to choose the right. Do you?Yet you would agree that in their basic underlying principles most ancient moral codes we are aware of, developed among people of differing faiths, religions, levels of access to other peoples, and levels of isolation, share a lot of the same basic features? Why?For instance most moral codes prohibit theft. Most, but not all, prohibit aggression within the social unit. Why?
Stone holm Posted March 17, 2014 Posted March 17, 2014 I believe these statements to be true, but it's not what the argument/discussion was about. It was whether gravity is co-eternal with God or not. So, do you have a response related to that? Co-eternal with God just as the intelligences which entered our Spirit bodies sired by our Heavenly Father were co-eternal, no reason to believe that gravity did not exist when Heavenly Father lived out His mortality and became a God.
Bikeemikey Posted March 17, 2014 Posted March 17, 2014 In any source you reference, the definition of gravity always involves the interaction of terrestrial or celestial bodies. I'm not a scientist, but it seems to me as though there is no gravity outside of a planet or star's gravitational pull. If this is true, then I would have to conclude that gravity is not co-eternal with God, but a law of his creation. Do you believe all the stars and planets were created by God?I do to want to spend the next few hours catching you up in high school physics... Gravity is the result of mass. At least as best we can tell. Larger objects have more than smaller objects... Hence the larger planets-stars have more than smaller.It is not about planets, it is about the matter that makes up planets. I read the teachings of joseph smith to clearly refute creation ex nilho. God used material co eternal with him and laws he obeyed (not created) during the process of forming our world.It is also not required for god to have made all planets/stars. Only ours and any other one he says me made.
Stone holm Posted March 17, 2014 Posted March 17, 2014 I do to want to spend the next few hours catching you up in high school physics... Gravity is the result of mass. At least as best we can tell. Larger objects have more than smaller objects... Hence the larger planets-stars have more than smaller.It is not about planets, it is about the matter that makes up planets. I read the teachings of joseph smith to clearly refute creation ex nilho. God used material co eternal with him and laws he obeyed (not created) during the process of forming our world.It is also not required for god to have made all planets/stars. Only ours and any other one he says me made. I think a fairly strong argument can be made from the teachings and logic, that He did not make all the planets and stars. If we accept the Snow Couplet, and the nigh unto Kolob reference, it would seem that the Celestial World on which Heavenly Father lives presumably with his generation of siblings, and His mortal parents -- then obviously, he organized matter in a specific area of this Universe, and not necessarily the entire Universe. And that concept, has no room for Heavenly Father making up fundamental laws of physics, plus it is flat out inconsistent with the notion of unorganized matter. 1
jchristopher Posted March 18, 2014 Posted March 18, 2014 Would you really worship an immoral God? I realize that in the past many religions have worshipped immoral Gods, but I do not think that is the future of religion. The immorality of various publicized "religious" personages these days is what is accounting for the increased percentage of people saying that religion has little significance in their lives -- mainly because the "god" which is being pushed by these people is perceived to be immoral by many people. If the only point of morality is to achieve Heaven by conforming to a lifestyle established by a god who is indifferent to suffering, then that is not morality. We believe in a God who is moral and good, and we discern that by what is good and beautiful and noble in this life. But the initial determination to be moral must come from within, it is initially formed in the human heart and eventually leads to God -- not the other way around. Ummm...you lost me. I would have to disagree that the reason an increasing percentage of people feel religion has little significance in their lives is due to the immorality of publicized "religious personages." The biggest factor for this, by far, is the disintegration of the traditional family unit. Broken homes are becoming more common that whole ones. Children do not have a solid foundation to build their lives on with a mother and father who are faithful to each other and who teach their children by word and deed to love God and put Him first. What other reason is there for morality than to achieve peace and happiness in this life and exaltation in the life to come? Where did you get the notion of a "god who is indifferent to suffering?" Are you saying that the inception of morality takes place in the heart of man??? Please explain further
jchristopher Posted March 18, 2014 Posted March 18, 2014 You paint with pretty broad strokes, enough so to make it meaningless. If the truths lie deeply buried within us, doesn't that give a push or nudge in a direction that wwould cancel out free will? We would automatically be pre-programmed to choose the right. I fail to see any evidence that all peoples of the earth are pre-disposed to choose the right. Do you? No to your first question. The truths lie deeply within us, but they aren't clearly recalled. They're more like deeper subconscious feelings. We have a veil of forgetfulness over our minds that prevents us from a clear memory of what we were taught in the pre-existence. The flip side to this is that we are tempted by the adversary to do evil. We are constantly enticed between both good and evil, and this makes possible free will.
jchristopher Posted March 18, 2014 Posted March 18, 2014 Co-eternal with God just as the intelligences which entered our Spirit bodies sired by our Heavenly Father were co-eternal, no reason to believe that gravity did not exist when Heavenly Father lived out His mortality and became a God. I have no problem with that. I haven't suggested otherwise. I believe that there have been infinite numbers of worlds like this one that have come and gone
jchristopher Posted March 18, 2014 Posted March 18, 2014 I do to want to spend the next few hours catching you up in high school physics... Gravity is the result of mass. At least as best we can tell. Larger objects have more than smaller objects... Hence the larger planets-stars have more than smaller.It is not about planets, it is about the matter that makes up planets. I read the teachings of joseph smith to clearly refute creation ex nilho. God used material co eternal with him and laws he obeyed (not created) during the process of forming our world.It is also not required for god to have made all planets/stars. Only ours and any other one he says me made. I'm not sure you're high school physics catch up explained very much at all about gravity...I understand it has to do with mass. I agree that materials (elements) are co eternal with God and that he obeyed co eternal laws when forming the earth... I also understand this process of creating worlds without number has been going on all throughout eternity. So yes, I agree that not all worlds that ever existed were created by our God. However, I don't think it matters whether we're talking about our God or another God, they're all God's that work in harmony with each other and according to eternal principals. What I was suggesting is that gravity does not exist without divine creation. If there is not a divine creation/formation/organization of element, than there is no gravity. Right?
jchristopher Posted March 18, 2014 Posted March 18, 2014 I think a fairly strong argument can be made from the teachings and logic, that He did not make all the planets and stars. If we accept the Snow Couplet, and the nigh unto Kolob reference, it would seem that the Celestial World on which Heavenly Father lives presumably with his generation of siblings, and His mortal parents -- then obviously, he organized matter in a specific area of this Universe, and not necessarily the entire Universe. And that concept, has no room for Heavenly Father making up fundamental laws of physics, plus it is flat out inconsistent with the notion of unorganized matter. See post #161 Whether Heavenly Father or his siblings or parents or aunts and uncles, it makes no difference to me. When I say "God," I mean Jehovah, Elohim, or any of the family of Gods that exist in the eternities. Gravity does not exist without divine organization of the elements
Bikeemikey Posted March 18, 2014 Posted March 18, 2014 I'm not sure you're high school physics catch up explained very much at all about gravity...I understand it has to do with mass. I agree that materials (elements) are co eternal with God and that he obeyed co eternal laws when forming the earth... I also understand this process of creating worlds without number has been going on all throughout eternity. So yes, I agree that not all worlds that ever existed were created by our God. However, I don't think it matters whether we're talking about our God or another God, they're all God's that work in harmony with each other and according to eternal principals. What I was suggesting is that gravity does not exist without divine creation. If there is not a divine creation/formation/organization of element, than there is no gravity. Right? If gravity is a function of mass and elements have mass and are co-eternal with God, then God if not create gravity. Did god create objects with large gravitational force, sure. But that does not mean he created gravity. Also I am not suggesting that God didn't create all planets because other gods made some; im saying it is not required that all planets that exist are made by our god or other gods. Perhaps God/s only bother making the planets that have life.
jchristopher Posted March 18, 2014 Posted March 18, 2014 If gravity is a function of mass and elements have mass and are co-eternal with God, then God if not create gravity. Did god create objects with large gravitational force, sure. But that does not mean he created gravity.Also I am not suggesting that God didn't create all planets because other gods made some; im saying it is not required that all planets that exist are made by our god or other gods. Perhaps God/s only bother making the planets that have life.So how did the "planets" that god didn't create come into being?
Bikeemikey Posted March 18, 2014 Posted March 18, 2014 (edited) So how did the "planets" that god didn't create come into being?Are you conceding the gravity point then?I'm not saying god didn't make all planets, im simply saying it is not theologically necessary.Science is observing planets being made everyday. It seems there is a certain set of criteria that when met then matter into planets or suns or pulsars or quasars or any number of other things. If universal laws are laws god adheres to, not ones he created, it is entirely possible that these planets are formed because matter is following universal laws.God may chose to intervene in certain circumstances and apply his knowledge of said laws to craft a specific outcome he desires. Under such a scenario not all planets need to be specifically crafted by god. Edited March 18, 2014 by Bikeemikey
Stone holm Posted March 18, 2014 Posted March 18, 2014 See post #161 Whether Heavenly Father or his siblings or parents or aunts and uncles, it makes no difference to me. When I say "God," I mean Jehovah, Elohim, or any of the family of Gods that exist in the eternities. Gravity does not exist without divine organization of the elementsPossibly, but we know very little about the Divine Race of Gods or the origins of this universe. So to say that a god was required to create gravity is one of those things which is pure speculation unsupported by anything and that status is unlikely to change soon. Personally, I tend to go with Rupert Sheldrake with the idea that the laws of physics came into existence because of the overruling law of habit, namely that if something happens once one way it is most likely to happen that way again.
Stone holm Posted March 18, 2014 Posted March 18, 2014 Are you conceding the gravity point then?I'm not saying god didn't make all planets, im simply saying it is not theologically necessary.Science is observing planets being made everyday. It seems there is a certain set of criteria that when met then matter into planets or suns or pulsars or quasars or any number of other things. If universal laws are laws god adheres to, not ones he created, it is entirely possible that these planets are formed because matter is following universal laws.God may chose to intervene in certain circumstances and apply his knowledge of said laws to craft a specific outcome he desires. Under such a scenario not all planets need to be specifically crafted by god.Perhaps some day we will understand the evolution of such things as gravity, but we are just scientific infants at this point.
jchristopher Posted March 18, 2014 Posted March 18, 2014 Possibly, but we know very little about the Divine Race of Gods or the origins of this universe. So to say that a god was required to create gravity is one of those things which is pure speculation unsupported by anything and that status is unlikely to change soon. Personally, I tend to go with Rupert Sheldrake with the idea that the laws of physics came into existence because of the overruling law of habit, namely that if something happens once one way it is most likely to happen that way again.I do not believe I insinuated that God was required to create gravity
Bikeemikey Posted March 18, 2014 Posted March 18, 2014 I do not believe I insinuated that God was required to create gravityYou said that with out divine creation there would be no gravity. Not sure how else to read this.
jaxenro Posted March 18, 2014 Author Posted March 18, 2014 Or it could be that God simply initiated an ongoing chain of events so that planets are still being created today based on His initial "nudge" billions of years ago. Gravity could be one of the laws God uses to create the universe, creation being an ongoing concept
jaxenro Posted March 18, 2014 Author Posted March 18, 2014 or gravity, along with the other physical laws, could be God's creation that set into motion a chain of events that created the universe.
asweaterfriend Posted March 18, 2014 Posted March 18, 2014 Friends I have had that do not believe in God have taken great offense at time to the thought that religion is necessary to be a "good" or moral person, an incorrect thought that I at times have succumbed to. If you mean "morality" as ethical standards or a principle-based system to navigate life, I would say it exists without a belief in God. As offspring of God, we can trance innate human morals of love, loyalty, and respect back to our Maker. I believe we all have the ability to be moral human beings regardless of where we are in our faith/believe journey. There are anomalies to this answer, such as physiological or physical issues that can obscure our ability to decide right from wrong. I don't have an answer for such issues. One does not need a believe in Deity to use his or her agency in a manner that is morally in line with God's will.
mfbukowski Posted March 18, 2014 Posted March 18, 2014 You paint with pretty broad strokes, enough so to make it meaningless. If the truths lie deeply buried within us, doesn't that give a push or nudge in a direction that wwould cancel out free will? We would automatically be pre-programmed to choose the right. I fail to see any evidence that all peoples of the earth are pre-disposed to choose the right. Do you?We come down on the Calvinists for this issue on the other side of the coin- I agree with you that thinking we are programmed to be good raises the same difficulty on the other side.
mfbukowski Posted March 18, 2014 Posted March 18, 2014 When I get some time I will find some links for you that details the studies they are doing with newborns that seems to strongly point in that direction. I don't know if DNA is the correct term but there does seem to be some type of basic moral code we are all born with one that coincides to a degree with the three principles I posted earlier, that a moral action is one that enhances social unit cohesionHumans cannot live without social cohesion. We literally cannot live without being nurtured by others. Babies cannot live more than a few hours without intervention. Without a family structure and morality, we could not survive.
mfbukowski Posted March 18, 2014 Posted March 18, 2014 I think a fairly strong argument can be made from the teachings and logic, that He did not make all the planets and stars. If we accept the Snow Couplet, and the nigh unto Kolob reference, it would seem that the Celestial World on which Heavenly Father lives presumably with his generation of siblings, and His mortal parents -- then obviously, he organized matter in a specific area of this Universe, and not necessarily the entire Universe. And that concept, has no room for Heavenly Father making up fundamental laws of physics, plus it is flat out inconsistent with the notion of unorganized matter.Get a little imagination for Pete's sake. There could be, and probably are, multiple universes. The idea that humans can actually know about something God does not know about or control, and that we can define his limits, is ridiculous.
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