K-2 Posted March 10, 2014 Author Posted March 10, 2014 The chain of command is different though, CV75.
Gray Posted March 10, 2014 Posted March 10, 2014 I find it interesting while there is some justification (however wrong-headed) for the pre-1978 priesthood ban in the Books of Moses and Abraham, there is no scripture anywhere that denies priesthood office to women.
Gray Posted March 10, 2014 Posted March 10, 2014 God does not need to bestow the priesthood on his daughters for them to be considered equal before him. Or He would have done it a long time ago. Your belief that He should is similar to the belief that if a child dies in infancy without baptism, that little child won't be saved in the Kingdom of God. God is not unjust. The thing is priesthood ordination is not carried out by God, but rather by his fallible children
Gray Posted March 10, 2014 Posted March 10, 2014 (edited) Women can't be ordained without ordaining girls. It would have to be inclusive as the male priesthood. Speaking about women is a misnomer. It is about females who have reached a certain age. If females are ordained, it would send a shock wave through church structures. Why have relief society if all have the priesthood? Why have the separatioin of the sexes in youth organizations and in church meetings? Will females have the right to refuse the priesthood? Males really must accept the priesthood and are primed to do so from an early age. I have never known any male to refuse the priesthood. Will it be the same for females? I think that many women would leave the church or it would cast tremendous doubt in women's minds. My own daughters do not want the priesthood. Where would there place be in the church if they refuse the priesthood? On the contrary, it would immediately boost the strength of the church more than double. There are many wards struggling for competent leadership, because they are limited to male leaders for most of the important roles (nothing to do with the competence of men- it's just often the case in wards where there are a lot of newer converts or where there aren't that many active men). Many wards have been dissolved and assimilated into others because of lack of priesthood leaders. Imagine the talent pool more than doubling. You'd be able to have strong wards with much fewer members than is currently required for a ward to be considered strong. Edited March 10, 2014 by Gray
ksfisher Posted March 10, 2014 Posted March 10, 2014 On the contrary, it would immediately boost the strength of the church more than double. There are many wards struggling for competent leadership, because they are limited to male leaders for most of the important roles (nothing to do with the competence of men- it's just often the case in wards where there are a lot of newer converts or where there aren't that many active men). Many wards have been dissolved and assimilated into others because of lack of priesthood leaders. Imagine the talent pool more than doubling. You'd be able to have strong wards with much fewer members than is currently required for a ward to be considered strong.Or, perhaps, all of the men would choose not to participate in the priesthood and be a part of Relief Society instead.
Calm Posted March 10, 2014 Posted March 10, 2014 I find it interesting while there is some justification (however wrong-headed) for the pre-1978 priesthood ban in the Books of Moses and Abraham, there is no scripture anywhere that denies priesthood office to women.The husband will rule over her verse has about as much value as any of the scriptures appealed to for the pre1978 ban.
Calm Posted March 10, 2014 Posted March 10, 2014 (edited) Or, perhaps, all of the men would choose not to participate in the priesthood and be a part of Relief Society instead.They can choose not to participate now and yet most don't if they stay active at all. Edited March 10, 2014 by calmoriah
Gray Posted March 10, 2014 Posted March 10, 2014 Or, perhaps, all of the men would choose not to participate in the priesthood and be a part of Relief Society instead. I have a hard time seeing that.
Gray Posted March 10, 2014 Posted March 10, 2014 The husband will rule over her verse has about as much value as any of the scriptures appealed to for the pre1978 ban. That's a fairly bad English translation, and in any case isn't referring to priesthood. A simple appeal to scripture can never be the final word. We also have to look at the scripture written on our hearts.
CV75 Posted March 10, 2014 Posted March 10, 2014 The chain of command is different though, CV75.Chain of command between husband and wife? I never heard of that being an element of the patriarchal order. It's not in the new and everlasting covenant. "One" means "one." Godly couples abase themselves, assume the least, lose their lives and serve the most; together they are the greatest and exalted. Together they preside. See D&C 121 on how they attain power in the priesthood together. 1
CV75 Posted March 10, 2014 Posted March 10, 2014 I find it interesting while there is some justification (however wrong-headed) for the pre-1978 priesthood ban in the Books of Moses and Abraham, there is no scripture anywhere that denies priesthood office to women. Priesthood power is far more precious than office, and women (just like anyone else) can have priesthood power through righteousness. 1
ksfisher Posted March 10, 2014 Posted March 10, 2014 That's a fairly bad English translation, and in any case isn't referring to priesthood. A simple appeal to scripture can never be the final word. We also have to look at the scripture written on our hearts. Out of curiosity, what part of the translation is bad?
pogi Posted March 10, 2014 Posted March 10, 2014 Priesthood power is far more precious than office, and women (just like anyone else) can have priesthood power through righteousness.What does that mean exactly? How do you hold and utilize the power without the authority? I'm not necessarily disputing your statement, just wondering what it looks like for you.
Senator Posted March 10, 2014 Posted March 10, 2014 (edited) ..... women (just like anyone else) can have priesthood power through righteousness. How so? Are saying something along the lines of priesthood-like power Edited March 10, 2014 by Senator
K-2 Posted March 10, 2014 Author Posted March 10, 2014 Yes, CV75, wives don't receive revelations from God for their husbands to follow, but rather husbands receive revelations from God for their wives and children to follow.
CV75 Posted March 10, 2014 Posted March 10, 2014 Yes, CV75, wives don't receive revelations from God for their husbands to follow, but rather husbands receive revelations from God for their wives and children to follow.Wow--this is so off base that I don't even know where to start... I guess you'll just have to do what it takes to experience it for yourself. The mistake is in a) who receives revelation; b) on what basis it is received; c) on what basis it is shared; d) on what basis it is followed. 3
Tacenda Posted March 10, 2014 Posted March 10, 2014 Wow--this is so off base that I don't even know where to start... I guess you'll just have to do what it takes to experience it for yourself. The mistake is in a) who receives revelation; b) on what basis it is received; c) on what basis it is shared; d) on what basis it is followed.Yeah, that's what some of us have been dealing with....
CV75 Posted March 10, 2014 Posted March 10, 2014 What does that mean exactly? How do you hold and utilize the power without the authority? I'm not necessarily disputing your statement, just wondering what it looks like for you. How so? Are saying something along the lines of priesthood-like power By exerdising faith in the priesthood, women have power in the priesthood. This is in addition to providing an influence for good to the priesthood holder with whome she is associated (father, husband, family member, home teaher, leader). A woman's faith in the priesthood can draw the Lord's blessings to her even though priesthood holders may lack such power themselves. You'll have to read the entire articles to get the fuller picture, but just a couple of quotes: “Men and women have different but equally important responsibilities in the home and the Church. Priesthood power can help each person perform those responsibilities for the benefit of all.” https://www.lds.org/manual/the-latter-day-saint-woman-basic-manual-for-women-part-a/women-in-the-church/lesson-13-women-and-the-priesthood?lang=eng “God, our Heavenly Father, and our Savior, Jesus Christ, have given us all that is needed to receive the highest degree of the celestial kingdom and dwell with Them and our loved ones in power and glory forever and ever.” https://www.lds.org/church/news/womens-influence-complements-priesthood-power-says-sister-burton?lang=eng Women may not have an office, but when they have been endowed and enter into the new and everlasting covenant of marriage, they have priesthood power. A girl who has faith in the priesthood possesses priesthood power in another sense. Elder Christofferson spoke of "the moral force of women." "My grandmother Adena Warnick Swenson taught me to be conscientious in priesthood service ...she knew how to help boys become priesthood men." If properly directed within the new and everlasting covenant of marriage, I take this moral power to constitute a facet of priesthood power that helps a couple meet the aims of a temple marriage, both here and in the hereafter. https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2013/10/the-moral-force-of-women?lang=eng
CV75 Posted March 10, 2014 Posted March 10, 2014 Yeah, that's what some of us have been dealing with....Unerstood--and if one knows she has been dealing with it, she knows the way it is supposed to work. Attaining that is something else, and takes both parties to figure out.
Gray Posted March 10, 2014 Posted March 10, 2014 Priesthood power is far more precious than office, and women (just like anyone else) can have priesthood power through righteousness. I'm sure that will happen some day
Gray Posted March 10, 2014 Posted March 10, 2014 Out of curiosity, what part of the translation is bad? Caveat - I don't speak Hebrew. Literal translation: "unto your man your desire and he to rule over you" The meaning of the passage is unclear. Is it saying the woman wants him to rule over her? It it saying it will happen without endorsing it? Who knows? In any case, this doesn't pertain to anything we'd recognize as priesthood.
Calm Posted March 10, 2014 Posted March 10, 2014 That's a fairly bad English translation, and in any case isn't referring to priesthood. A simple appeal to scripture can never be the final word. We also have to look at the scripture written on our hearts.Exactly. 1
Senator Posted March 10, 2014 Posted March 10, 2014 (edited) By exerdising faith in the priesthood, women have power in the priesthood. This is in addition to providing an influence for good to the priesthood holder with whome she is associated (father, husband, family member, home teaher, leader). A woman's faith in the priesthood can draw the Lord's blessings to her even though priesthood holders may lack such power themselves.You'll have to read the entire articles to get the fuller picture, but just a couple of quotes:“Men and women have different but equally important responsibilities in the home and the Church. Priesthood power can help each person perform those responsibilities for the benefit of all.”https://www.lds.org/manual/the-latter-day-saint-woman-basic-manual-for-women-part-a/women-in-the-church/lesson-13-women-and-the-priesthood?lang=eng“God, our Heavenly Father, and our Savior, Jesus Christ, have given us all that is needed to receive the highest degree of the celestial kingdom and dwell with Them and our loved ones in power and glory forever and ever.”https://www.lds.org/church/news/womens-influence-complements-priesthood-power-says-sister-burton?lang=engWomen may not have an office, but when they have been endowed and enter into the new and everlasting covenant of marriage, they have priesthood power. A girl who has faith in the priesthood possesses priesthood power in another sense.Elder Christofferson spoke of "the moral force of women." "My grandmother Adena Warnick Swenson taught me to be conscientious in priesthood service ...she knew how to help boys become priesthood men." If properly directed within the new and everlasting covenant of marriage, I take this moral power to constitute a facet of priesthood power that helps a couple meet the aims of a temple marriage, both here and in the hereafter.https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2013/10/the-moral-force-of-women?lang=eng Well CV, I appreciate your attempt at an explanation. I think I have a sense at what you are trying to get at, but I will readily confess that the whole "special" priesthood power concept is very nebulous to me. And I think I may not be alone in this, if yesterdays priesthood quorum lesson on this very subject is any indication. I don't know when I've heard more birds chirping then in response to questions regarding priesthood power and the effect it has in our lives. Edited March 10, 2014 by Senator
CV75 Posted March 10, 2014 Posted March 10, 2014 (edited) Well CV, I appreciate you attempt at an explanation. I think I have a sense at what you are trying to get at, but I will readily confess that the whole "special" priesthood power concept is very nebulous to me. And I think I may not be alone in this, if yesterdays priesthood quorum lesson on this very subject is any indication. I don't know when I've heard more birds chirping then in response to questions regarding priesthood power and the effect it has in our lives. I'm sure that will happen some day I think it's relatively easy to talk about priesthood power in terms of priesthood holders having power in the priesthood since they have both an office and righteousness: "While the power of the priesthood is unlimited, our individual power in the priesthood is limited by our degree of righteousness or purity." https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2001/04/priesthood-power?lang=eng "Priesthood holders young and old need both authority and power—the necessary permission and the spiritual capacity to represent God in the work of salvation" https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2012/04/the-powers-of-heaven?lang=eng To me, the effect of priesthood power is to fit us for exaltation, as explicitly and equally pronounced and verbalized by brothers and sisters at the very end of the endowment session. So it is already happening! Edited March 10, 2014 by CV75
teddyaware Posted March 10, 2014 Posted March 10, 2014 (edited) No, teddyaware, the women will be queens and priestesses to their husbands, which is not "in the same way," which "any knowledgeable and experienced Latter-day Saint" really should know.Well K2, when it comes to whether women will be queens and priestesses unto their husbands or unto God, it seems we're both right:"Some of you will understand when I tell you that some of these good women who have passed beyond have actually been anointed queens and priestesses unto God and unto their husbands, to continue their work and to be the mothers of spirits in the world to come. The world does not understand this—they cannot receive it—they do not know what it means, and it is sometimes hard for those who ought to be thoroughly imbued with the spirit of the gospel—even for some of us, to comprehend, but it is true." (President Joseph F. Smith) "If you are faithful over a few things here, you shall be ruler over many things there, and become kings and priests unto God. And you sisters who have dwelt in reflected glory will shine in your own light, queens and priestesses unto the Lord forever and ever." (Apostle Melvin J. Ballard, Conference Report, October 1934) "Have you forgotten that you are aiming to become kings and priests to the Lord, and queens and priestesses to him? (John Taylor, The Gospel Kingdom)"We do not rear children just to please our vanity. We bring children into the world to become kings and queens, and priests and priestesses for our Lord." (The Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, p.331) "The 'first anointing' refers to the washing and anointing part of the Endowment ceremony, in which a person is anointed to become a king and priest or a queen and priestess unto God." (Heber C. Kimball) "You, my sisters, if you are faithful will become Queens of Queens, and Priestesses unto the Most High God. These are your callings. (Eliza R. Snow) There are many more, but this will suffice. Edited March 11, 2014 by teddyaware 1
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