All Are Alike...

CV75 · March 12, 2014

Hmm..

I'm beginning to see that Gray might be right, in that one should not get to hung up on the specifics of the language of the temple.

How so? “Priesthood power” and “power in the priesthood” are not terms exclusively used in the temple. But since “intermediation” isn’t at all, perhaps it would be more palatable for me to focus on the different kinds of intermediation instead… but then again, people can get hung up on what intermediation means even with Jesus and just as easily miss the point on what it means for married couples.

I agree with you. However, what the teachings are, and how those teachings are actually carried out in a culture are two different things. I would dare say, that up until about 20 to 30 years ago, there was as much male dominance in LDS marriages (maybe more so seeing that there may have been an inferred divine sanction to it) as there was in the surrounding culture at large.

But that would be an incorrect, culturally-based inference, just as a husband being the all-purpose intermediary for a wife is.

JLHPROF · March 12, 2014

We really do like to quibble over silly little things.

As I was growing up my mother taught me about this discourse from Pres. Taylor. I think this perspective on womanhood is glorious enough without worrying about other seeming inequalities that are probably just our mortal perspectives getting in the way. I know if I achieve even half of the blessings promised in this discourse I will be more than satisfied.

The Origin and Destiny of Woman by President John Taylor

"Lady, whence comest thou? Thine origin? What art thou doing here? Whither art thou going, and what is thy destiny? Declare unto me if thou hast understanding. Knowest thou not that thou art a spark of Deity, struck from the fire of His eternal blaze, and brought forth in the midst of eternal burning?
Knowest thou not that eternities ago thy spirit, pure and holy, dwelt in thy Heavenly Father’s bosom, and in His presence, and with thy mother, one of the queens of heaven, surrounded by thy brother and sister spirits in the spirit world, among the Gods? That as thy spirit beheld the scenes transpiring there, and thou grewest in intelligence, thou sawest worlds upon worlds organized and peopled with thy kindred spirits who took upon them tabernacles, died, were resurrected, and received their exaltation on the redeemed worlds they once dwelt upon. Thou being willing and anxious to imitate them, waiting and desirous to obtain a body, a resurrection and exaltation also, and having obtained permission, madest a covenant with one of thy kindred spirits to be thy guardian angel while in mortality, also with two others, male and female spirits, that thou wouldst come and take a tabernacle through their lineage, and become one of their offspring. You also chose a kindred spirit whom you loved in the spirit world to be your head, stay, husband and protector on the earth and to exalt you in eternal worlds. All these were arranged, likewise the spirits that should tabernacle through your lineage. Leaving thy father and mother’s bosom and all thy kindred spirits thou camest to earth, took a tabernacle, and imitated the deeds of those who had been exalted before you.
At length the time arrived, and thou heard the voice of thy Father saying, go daughter to yonder lower world, and take upon thee a tabernacle, and work out thy probation with fear and trembling and rise to exaltation. But daughter, remember you go on this condition, that is, you are to forget all things you ever saw, or knew, to be transacted in the spirit world; you are not to know or remember anything concerning the same that you have beheld transpire here; but you must go, and while in your infancy, subject to sickness, pain, tears, mourning, sorrow and death. But when truth shall touch the cords of your heart they will vibrate; then intelligence shall illuminate your mind, and shed its luster in your soul, and you shall begin to understand the things you once knew, but which had gone from you; you shall then begin to understand and know the object of your creation. Daughter, go, and be faithful as thou hast been in thy first estate.
Thou bade father, mother and all farewell, and along with thy guardian angel, thou came on this globe. The spirits thou hadst chosen to come and tabernacle through their lineage, and your head having left the spirit world some years previous, thou came a spirit pure and holy. Thou hast obeyed the truth, and thy guardian angel ministers unto thee and watches over thee. Thou hast chosen him you loved in the spirit world to be thy companion. Now crowns, thrones, exaltations and dominions are in reserve for thee in the eternal worlds, and the way is opened for thee to return back into the presence of thy Heavenly Father, if thou wilt only abide by and walk in a celestial law, fulfill the designs of thy Creator and hold out to the end that when mortality is laid in the tomb, you may go down to your grave in peace, arise in glory, and receive your everlasting reward in the resurrection of the just, along with thy head and husband. Thou wilt be permitted to pass by the Gods and angels who guard the gates, and onward, upward to thy exaltation in a celestial world among the Gods. To be a priestess queen upon thy Heavenly Father’s throne, and a glory to thy husband and offspring, to bear the souls of men, to people other worlds while eternity goes and eternity comes; and if you will receive it, lady, this is eternal life. Hence, thine origin, the object of thy ultimate destiny. If faithful, lady, the cup is within thy reach; drink then the heavenly draught and live.”

Buckeye · March 12, 2014

Happy International Women's Day!

The above scripture has been used to explain the ending of the priesthood restriction in 1978, but I'm wondering, if it mentions "male and female" as well as "black and white," do you think the argument could logically be extended to justify the ordination of women in the LDS Church? Why do you think so, or why not?

I apologize if this has already been mentioned, but I find it noteworth that the Church chose to include the "male and female" reference in this verse, when they quoted the verse as part of the recent revision to the introduction to Official Declaration 1 (https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/od/1?lang=eng). In full, the introduction now reads:

The Book of Mormon teaches that “all are alike unto God,” including “black and white, bond and free, male and female” (2 Nephi 26:33). Throughout the history of the Church, people of every race and ethnicity in many countries have been baptized and have lived as faithful members of the Church. During Joseph Smith’s lifetime, a few black male members of the Church were ordained to the priesthood. Early in its history, Church leaders stopped conferring the priesthood on black males of African descent. Church records offer no clear insights into the origins of this practice. Church leaders believed that a revelation from God was needed to alter this practice and prayerfully sought guidance. The revelation came to Church President Spencer W. Kimball and was affirmed to other Church leaders in the Salt Lake Temple on June 1, 1978. The revelation removed all restrictions with regard to race that once applied to the priesthood.

It would have been easy to truncate the quotation at "black and white" or "bond and free," but the church chose to keep in "male and female." So yes, K-2, I think the extension of priesthood to women is logical based on this verse.

Senator · March 12, 2014

How so?

Well, for example, the statement that the woman is to, "hearken unto the counsel of her husband, as he hearkens unto the counsel of the Lord", should really be taken to mean, "the order of eternal marriage for example allows both husband and wife to counsel each other with a united "power in the priesthood" without being intermediaries for each other."

:pardon:

Don't quote temple content again.

JLHPROF · March 12, 2014

I believe the God>husband>wife>children view is made most clear in polygamous families, where the roles of the husband and wives aren't exactly equal due to there being multiple wives and marriages. That is probably one of the reasons that polygamy seems so distasteful to modern sensibilities - it clarifies the existence of patriarchy in family government.

Another example could be that of God and his wives, or as we generally refer to them: Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother. While there is certainly no ban on praying to our Heavenly Mother, Christ taught that we should pray to the Father. All recorded revelations have appear to have come from either Heavenly Father or Christ. Scriptures only talk of inheriting from our Father. The leader of the godhead is the Father, and so on...

Since husbands and wives are striving to eventually become Heavenly Fathers and Mothers we should expect the eternal pattern to continue. They may be equal in glory and power, but they don't appear to have the same roles to fill nor have the same functions in the kingdom of the God's or in their relationship with their spirit children.

Edited March 12, 2014 by JLHPROF

Buckeye · March 12, 2014

Well, for example, the statement that the woman is to, "hearken unto the counsel of her husband, as he hearkens unto the counsel of the Lord", should really be taken to mean, "the order of eternal marriage for example allows both husband and wife to counsel each other with a united "power in the priesthood" without being intermediaries for each other."

I like that thought. It's how my marriage works (or at least we aim for). But that's not the relationship the temple sets up. Originally, the temple covenant was for the wife to obey her husband. Period. No qualifiers for that obedience. Just like no qualifiers for the husband's obedience to God. I'm glad the qualifier "as he harkens" is now part of the covenant. That's actually a very big change because it turns the woman into a self-acting agent. But, unfortunately, the current endownment does not place any similar covenant on the husband to follow his wife's counsel when she is in tune with God. Members who want that covenant will have to establish it themselves, outside of the current endownment.

CV75 · March 12, 2014

Well, for example, the statement that the woman is to, "hearken unto the counsel of her husband, as he hearkens unto the counsel of the Lord", should really be taken to mean, "the order of eternal marriage for example allows both husband and wife to counsel each other with a united "power in the priesthood" without being intermediaries for each other."

You have me at a disadvantage since I won’t quote the temple as extensively as you have.

I don’t say “really mean” because it doesn’t mean that singular thing.

Adam and Eve were already married when a “new order” was established after the Fall. You will recall that the instance you refer to has to do with the ordinances of Redemption, which are administered by the priesthood. This is the counsel that is to be followed in a certain order. Adam received this from God (see Moses 6:64-68) and then gave them to Eve and the rest (see Moses 7:1). This is how Eve hearkens to Adam’s counsel, as Adam hearkens to the Lord’s counsel. It was not a pecking order for marital relations or stewardship or for divine revelation.

That men and women have the same Gift of the Holy Ghost and the same endowment (of priesthood power—see https://www.lds.org/scriptures/gs/endowment) allows them to counsel together in the order of marriage in the sense of receiving revelation for each other as the Lord sees fit to grant them.

CV75 · March 12, 2014

Members who want that covenant will have to establish it themselves, outside of the current endownment.

I would say the Gift of the Holy Ghost endowment always allowed this and that this is what the endowment always meant to grant men and women. Just because someone is not ready to see or receive it doesn't mean it wasn't always there. Let's not blame the endowment ceremony for our spiritual shortcomings!

Ahab · March 12, 2014

Yeah, that's what some of us have been dealing with....

Sorry, but you'll just have to continue to put up with us men in this world, and in the next world, and for however long it takes us to become perfect. And even if we don't ever become perfect, wouldn't you really miss us if we weren't around?

Ahab · March 12, 2014

About the same thing. So women only get spiritual revelation for her children not her husband? That's not very equal.