A Child Of God

[changed]

I posted this in LDS.net, and want to post it to this crowd too.  I am curious to see what everyone's interpretation is of the understanding that we are children of God.

a.) Adoption via covenants and ordinances.

Doctrine and Covenants 93:29
29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.

This scriptures tells us that:
1. Mankind (not some amorphous substance called intelligences - but men and women - existed as men and women in the beginning with God.
2. Intelligence, and the light of Christ was also not created and is eternal in nature.

Joseph Smith explained our origins in the King Follett sermon,

"The first principles of man are self-existent with God. God himself, finding he was in the midst of spirits and glory, because he was more intelligent, saw proper to institute laws whereby the rest could have a privilege to advance like himself. The relationship we have with God places us in a situation to advance in knowledge. He has power to institute laws to instruct the weaker intelligences, that they may be exalted with Himself, so that they might have one glory upon another, and all that knowledge, power, glory, and intelligence, which is requisite in order to save them in the world of spirits.", Joseph Smith April 7, 1844,
- https://www.lds.org/ensign/1971/05/t...ermon?lang=eng

That spirits existed as spirits eternally, God found us, adopted us, and gave us laws through which we could advance to become like Him.


The scriptures use the word "adoption" ie, taking care of someone you did not create, in reference to our relationship with God.

Romans 8:15
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
see also Ephesians 1:5, Romans 9:4, Romans 8:23

We "become" children of God through covenants, such as baptism.
Mosiah 5:7
7 And now, because of the covenant which ye have made ye shall be called the children of Christ, his sons, and his daughters; for behold, this day he hath spiritually begotten you; for ye say that your hearts are changed through faith on his name; therefore, ye are born of him and have become his sons and his daughters.

To me this means, that we do not start out as children, but instead become children through choosing to make covenants. This is similar to marriage - you become married to someone through covenants too.


Bible Dictionary: https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bd/ad...g=eng&letter=a

Quote:

Adoption
There are two types of adoption spoken of in the scriptures. A person who is of non-Israelite lineage becomes a member of the house of Israel through faith in Jesus Christ when it is accompanied by baptism in water and the reception of the Holy Ghost. In addition, all candidates for the fulness of salvation are accounted as sons and daughters of Jesus Christ, being His children by obedience to the gospel (Mosiah 5:7– . Although the word adoption is not actually used by John the Baptist, he taught the concept as recorded in Matt. 3:9 and Luke 3:8 (compare JST Matt. 3:36 [Appendix]; JST Luke 3:8 [Luke 3:8 note d]). See also Rom. 8:15–17; Gal. 4:5–7; Eph. 1:5; Abr. 2:10.

b) Organized
Intelligences were somehow formed, or organized into spirits - but this organization process is probably very different than what we understand today as pregnancy.

Abr 3:22 Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones;

It might also have been similar to how Adam was formed.


Adam is a child of God

Luke 3:38
38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

His body was formed, not through pregnancy, but from the dust of the earth.

Gen 2:7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Gen1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.


When we learn that we are in God's image, this is a result of how Adam was formed from the dust.


c) Through spiritual pregnancy.
We became spirit children of God the same way we become earthly children of parents here - ie - our spiritual parents were intimate with one another, our mother carried us in her stomach for 9 months, and then we were born.

Gen 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
Eve was cursed in Eden to bring forth children through the process we now know. Perhaps the heavenly version of this does not involve as much pain? Nevertheless, it should not be forgotten that the current way of becoming parents was a result of the fall, and might not reflect what happens in heaven. Then again, we know that God was once like us, perhaps He transgressed too at some point in order to have children - to have us?


We are told that Jesus is the only begotten - the only one, meaning no other children were begotten. If you choose option #c, please justify why you think Jesus was not God's only begotten child (that you believe we were also begotten).

Please provide quotes from prophets, and scriptures to support this viewpoint if this is what you choose.

d) Other.

Please explain.
 

Edited March 1, 2014 by changed

[changed]

PS - you can vote for multiple options on the poll.

PSS. For those of you who are not LDS, we believe that we are children of God with potential to become like Him as is explained in the recently added article on lds.org:
https://www.lds.org/topics/becoming-like-god?lang=eng

[bluebell]

I voted other.

I believe we are literal spirit children of heavenly parents but I don't pretend to know how it all works.

[Garden Girl]

I voted other.

I believe we are literal spirit children of heavenly parents but I don't pretend to know how it all works.

 

I believe this also... the scriptures tell us God is the Father of our spirits... and I don't know the process either but it is more than just a mechanical organizing, etc., because of the deep love He has for us... think of how you love your own children and then multiply that xxxxxxxx times.  I've told this before, but will tell it again here because it was a stunning experience for me. 

 

I was called to serve as an ordinance worker in the Portland temple... and when I was set apart and blessed it was electrtic.  As I left the temple pres's office, I decided to stay for a session.  As I walked across the area that leads to the dressing rooms, I was filled with such a deep love for everyone I saw... I can't even describe how deep this love was and how it filled my whole being.  it was stunning because I had no idea I was capable of such love... and I thought to myself... this has been a gift from a loving Heavenly Father... a brief glimpse of the love that he has for his children... for me.... it still brings tears to my eyes when I think back at how I felt.  I went on to serve six years... every Friday for six years I made the 180 mile round trip to the temple to serve my sisters... and I loved every minute of it.  Some health issues forced me to quit or I'd probably be serving today. 

 

from the beach on one of those beachy overcast mornings that will eventually turn to brilliant and warming sunshine... yesterday was a glorious sunny day, 60 degrees, no wind.... the crocus were blooming in my garden, waking after their long winter's nap to welcome the coming Spring... their jaunty little purple and yellow blooms shining forth... giving hope for the newness and renewal of Spring...

 

GG

[David T]

I'm moved by the approach that we were coeternal with God, That he found us, adopted us, and organized us into his family to help us progress and to experience Joy based on his knowledge and experience.

BYU Studies recently had an awesome paper by Sam Brown on Adoption theology, called Believing Adoption. An awesome must read.

Edited March 1, 2014 by David T

[changed]

I voted other.

I believe we are literal spirit children of heavenly parents but I don't pretend to know how it all works.

I believe we are literal children to, and I would very much like to know the process, for the same reason that it is important to know the process of the plan of salvation.  There is something within the process that binds us together - that should be important to figure out, shouldn't it?

[Ahab]

The intelligences referred to in Abraham were spirits, and each of us is as eternal as our Father because we are his offspring, aka children, and children are produced by the same kind of being that is in the act of perpetuating its own species. Life does not begin from nothing. Life is perpetuated, and the kind of intelligences we are is the same kind of intelligence as our Father, or I could also say Fathers, since we all have more than one Father, including grand and great Fathers, and yet as we trace our family history we can see that all of us born on this planet have a Father who is the Father of all of us, through Adam.

The sense in which we are adopted as children of Jesus Christ through a covenant and ordinance does not detract from the fact that all of us had already been born as children of another Father, and Fathers.

[pogi]

There is something within the process that binds us together - that should be important to figure out, shouldn't it?

 

Maybe later.  I think that we will find that the process is as natural to us a child-birth is.  In other words, I don't think it is something that we are going to have to "figure out" per se, but will be something that we instinctually do when the vail is removed. 

[thesometimesaint]

I voted other.

I believe we are literal spirit children of heavenly parents but I don't pretend to know how it all works.

 

Agreed.

[CV75]

My opinion is that we are any and other depending on our vantage point:

 

Premortal: we are children of God as the fulfilled promise of Their marriage covenant and living together in the same sociality that exists here, following the laws of procreation. If what power we have to bring forth children is delegated, I feel it must mirror Theirs.

 

Mortal: we are children of God when we are spiritually reborn, adopted as Christ’s children, and organized into His Church.

 

Post-mortal: we are children of God when we inherit all They have. The rest of humanity are also still children in a sense, but since mortality is the death of pre-mortality, and post-mortality the death of either, the premortal parentage is less relevant to their every day sociality.

[Ahab]

My opinion is that we are any and other depending on our vantage point:

Premortal: we are children of God as the fulfilled promise of Their marriage covenant and living together in the same sociality that exists here, following the laws of procreation. If what power we have to bring forth children is delegated, I feel it must mirror Theirs.

Mortal: we are children of God when we are spiritually reborn, adopted as Christ’s children, and organized into His Church.

Post-mortal: we are children of God when we inherit all They have. The rest of humanity are also still children in a sense, but since mortality is the death of pre-mortality, and post-mortality the death of either, the premortal parentage is less relevant to their every day sociality.

No matter what, we will always be children of our (Eternal) Father in heaven but we are children of Christ only when we accept and abide in that covenant which makes him our Father and we remain children of our mortal parents only if and when we accept and abide in a covenant relationship with them whereby we are sealed to them through the power of the holy priesthood of God.

[Freedom]

It is curious that you would post a poll on a mormon site but not offer the most obvious option which is that we are literally spirit children of God. It seems obvious that 'pregnancy' could not be an option unless you reject the doctrine of the pre-earth life. Adoption might refer to the notion of becoming an heir as a child of God in the sense that the Savior becomes our father. With this interpretation, adoption and organization has the same meaning. We are adopted when we join the organization which is the church. 

[changed]

It is curious that you would post a poll on a mormon site but not offer the most obvious option which is that we are literally spirit children of God. It seems obvious that 'pregnancy' could not be an option unless you reject the doctrine of the pre-earth life. Adoption might refer to the notion of becoming an heir as a child of God in the sense that the Savior becomes our father. With this interpretation, adoption and organization has the same meaning. We are adopted when we join the organization which is the church. 

Sorry I was not being clear - I meant for pregnancy to be the option of how we became spirit children of God in the premortal life. 

[Five Solas]

I voted for "adoption," as I'm a fan of the New Testament and the Apostle Paul uses that word a number of times to describe believers relationship to God.  But then I read your post and saw your qualifier "via covenants and ordinances" (i.e., our works) followed by quotes from Joseph Smith... 

 

D'oh!

 

--Erik

 

[halconero]

I voted for "adoption," as I'm a fan of the New Testament and the Apostle Paul uses that word a number of times to describe believers relationship to God.  But then I read your post and saw your qualifier "via covenants and ordinances" (i.e., our works) followed by quotes from Joseph Smith... 

 

D'oh!

 

--Erik

 

Oh, don't worry! Paul was very much in favour of works, just not the Mosaic kinds.

[Five Solas]

Oh, don't worry! Paul was very much in favour of works, just not the Mosaic kinds.

as are we all, halconero. trust me, I'm not worried at all.

;0)

 

the relevant question is whether we in some way acquire our adoption (e.g., I was the good kid in the orphanage, obeyed the rules, performed the required rituals, etc. and therefore was picked for adoption).  if you go there--you won't find any support from Paul (or anyone else in the Bible for that matter).  

 

--Erik

[halconero]

as are we all, halconero. trust me, I'm not worried at all.

;0)

 

the relevant question is whether we in some way acquire our adoption (e.g., I was the good kid in the orphanage, obeyed the rules, performed the required rituals, etc. and therefore was picked for adoption).  if you go there--you won't find any support from Paul (or anyone else in the Bible for that matter).  

 

--Erik

 

A study of faith and grace would reveal the opposite. "Pistis" and social context reveal a much more demanding Gospel than that preached by many churches today.

[Storm Rider]

I was not comfortable with pregnancy so I chose "other". I believe that each individual that has ever lived is a child of God. It seems like most are narrowing the definition to those who are members of the House of Israel, which is something else to me. 

[Palerider]

From the Follett discourse:

 

"God himself, finding he was in the midst of spirits and glory..."

 

This just sounds totally goofy to me. It's almost as if God awoke one morning to find himself surrounded by lesser beings who appeared out of nowhere and said, "Well, it looks like I've got a lot of babysitting to do here..."

 

"I wonder if Sam in the next universe over has had any of these little guys show up on his property.......?"

Edited March 2, 2014 by Palerider

[CV75]

Sorry I was not being clear - I meant for pregnancy to be the option of how we became spirit children of God in the premortal life. 

Narrowing it down to this, I would say that pregnancy is a reasonable understanding. No one scripture to back it up, but our scriptures do refer to gods and goddesses, eternal marriage, eternal increase, the eternal round, continuation of the seeds, sociality and so forth--all requiring a Father and a Mother.

[CV75]

From the Follett discourse:

 

"God himself, finding he was in the midst of spirits and glory..."

 

This just sounds totally goofy to me. It's almost as if God awoke one morning to find himself surrounded by lesser beings who appeared out of nowhere and said, "Well, it looks like I've got a lot of babysitting to do here..."

 

"I wonder what if Sam in the next universe over has had any of these little guys show up on his property.......?"

I think this is a “cartoonish” understanding of what the phrase means. You seem to be quoting from one source such as this Ensign article: https://www.lds.org/ensign/1971/05/the-king-follett-sermon?lang=eng

 

But other sources I have say:

 

“The first principles of man are self-existent with God. God found himself in the midst of spirits and glory, and because he was greater, he saw proper to institute laws whereby the rest could have the privilege of advancing like himself--that they might have one glory upon another and all the knowledge, power, and glory necessary to save the world of spirits.”

http://mldb.byu.edu/follett.htm

 

“God Himself found Himself in the midst of spirits and glory. Because He was greater He saw proper to institute laws whereby the rest, who were less in intelligence, could have a privilege to advance like Himself and be exalted with Him, so that they might have one glory upon another in all that knowledge, power, and glory.” https://byustudies.byu.edu/PDFViewer.aspx?title=5321&linkURL=18.2LarsonKingFollett-788e0c92-f320-42a3-bccc-7bf232ab8432.pdf

 

To me, this conveys the idea of not so much a discovery of unexpected circumstances, but a starting point for God the Father to institute laws once a generation (as in a threshold number) of spirit children was attained, so they could advance individually and collectively like He did. In other words, something like: “God, having continued the seeds unto our generation and seeing we were prepared to advance as He did…”

Edited March 2, 2014 by CV75

[Palerider]

I think this is a “cartoonish” understanding of what the phrase means. You seem to be quoting from one source such as this Ensign article: https://www.lds.org/ensign/1971/05/the-king-follett-sermon?lang=eng

 

But other sources I have say:

 

“The first principles of man are self-existent with God. God found himself in the midst of spirits and glory, and because he was greater, he saw proper to institute laws whereby the rest could have the privilege of advancing like himself--that they might have one glory upon another and all the knowledge, power, and glory necessary to save the world of spirits.”

http://mldb.byu.edu/follett.htm

 

“God Himself found Himself in the midst of spirits and glory. Because He was greater He saw proper to institute laws whereby the rest, who were less in intelligence, could have a privilege to advance like Himself and be exalted with Him, so that they might have one glory upon another in all that knowledge, power, and glory.” https://byustudies.byu.edu/PDFViewer.aspx?title=5321&linkURL=18.2LarsonKingFollett-788e0c92-f320-42a3-bccc-7bf232ab8432.pdf

 

To me, this conveys the idea of not so much a discovery of unexpected circumstances, but a starting point for God the Father to institute laws once a generation (as in a threshold number) of spirit children was attained, so they could advance individually and collectively like He did. In other words, something like: “God, having continued the seeds unto our generation and seeing we were prepared to advance as He did…”

 

I'm quoting from the OP........

 

And the understanding isn't cartoonish. The theory itself is cartoonish. God doesn't just "find himself" amongst anything. The word "find" implies discovery or being in circumstances over which one has no control. 

 

The omniscience of God precludes the possibility........

[CV75]

I'm quoting from the OP........

 

And the understanding isn't cartoonish. The theory itself is cartoonish. God doesn't just "find himself" amongst anything. The word "find" implies discovery or being in circumstances over which one has no control. 

 

The omniscience of God precludes the possibility........

But I just explained a more valid meaning of "find" for this teaching -- For example, during the Creation, the Gods acted or commanded, saw (found) that they were obeyed, and then proceeded to the next step. Same here. God saw that there was a generation of spirit children ready to proceed further. God acts with faith, and then finds (sees) the fruits of that realized faith and action.

 

Omniscience: "I don't think you understand what that word means..."

[changed]

I'm moved by the approach that we were coeternal with God, That he found us, adopted us, and organized us into his family to help us progress and to experience Joy based on his knowledge and experience.

BYU Studies recently had an awesome paper by Sam Brown on Adoption theology, called Believing Adoption. An awesome must read.

Thank you so much for this article link, it was well worththe $2 to read it.

A few highlights from the article on adoption:

Joseph adopted the Murdock twins after losing his own children. His family life was based

 

Quote:

“on choice and commitment more than on the vicissitudes of biology. Relationships would not rest solely, according to Joseph, on the mere happenstances of biological reproduction.”

“In the sermon and the dream, Brigham made clear that the law of adoption

was the method by which the cosmos was to be “organized” during and

after mortality; the mortal organization of relational seals solemnized

in temple rites reflected the premortal organization. We could see this

sermon, in light of Brigham Young’s later endorsement of spirit birth,

as indicating that we have misunderstood the details of his teachings

about spirit birth, or that he felt that adoption mattered most and his

spirit birth teachings were a speculation about mechanisms whereby

adoption could be effected.”

14. Wilford Woodruff, Wilford Woodruff’s Journal, 1833–1898, Typescript, ed.

Scott G. Kenney, 9 vols. (Midvale, Utah: Signature Books, 1983–1985), 3:127–37.

It is a very interesting article for anyone who is interested.

He came to the same conclusion I did regarding agency in all of this

 

Quote:

"An adoptive model also highlights the role of choice in the creation of these relationships. We were not

imposed upon God by some accident of celestial biology; in some significant sense, he chose us to be his children....

Understanding as I now do the ways in which Joseph Smith put

priesthood to work among the early Saints, I believe that the adoption

model of divine parenthood accurately portrays what the Prophet

taught in the 1840s….

The biologically parental is a model for the love of God—many

of us seem to worry that a willed love is not as powerful as an instinctual

love. We want people to love us not by principle but by passion.

Perhaps the miracle of adoption lies in its capacity to transform willed

love into inviolable love. Surely that is a miracle that stands at the core of Christ’s being and his Atonement. As he chose to bear our burdens,

he nourished a love that will never die. If it is our task to become as God,

is it better to ride the coattails of instinct or to apply the power of will?

Throughout our lives, God calls us to a love we will, a love we choose.

Some other scriptures to ponder.

Mathew 3: 36 And think not to say within yourselves, We are the children of Abraham, and we only have power to bring seed unto our father Abraham; for I say unto you that God is able of these stones to raise up children into Abraham

DC 39:4 But to as many as received me, gave I power to become my sons; and even so will I give unto as many as will receive me, power to become my sons.

 

Mark 3: 31 ¶There came then his brethren and his mother, and, standing without, sent unto him, calling him.

32 And the multitude sat about him, and they said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren without seek for thee.

33 And he answered them, saying, Who is my mother, or my brethren?

34 And he looked round about on them which sat about him, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!

35 For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.

John 19:26

26 When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son!

I believe that being a parent is more than becoming pregnant:"As I tenderly acknowledge the very real pain that many single women, or married women who have not borne children, feel about any discussion of motherhood, could we consider this one possibility about our eternal female identity—our unity in our diversity? Eve was given the identity of “the mother of all living”—years, decades, perhaps centuries before she ever bore a child. It would appear that her motherhood preceded her maternity, just as surely as the perfection of the Garden preceded the struggles of mortality. I believe mother is one of those very carefully chosen words, one of those rich words—with meaning after meaning after meaning. We must not, at all costs, let that word divide us. I believe with all my heart that it is first and foremost a statement about our nature, not a head count of our children." - https://www.lds.org/ensign/1987/10/o...Mother+abraham

Eve did not have children in her perfect form, she had to transgress to have children. Why do you think that was? It's not unreasonable to assume other perfect beings are also unable to have children, and therefore have to rely on handmaids.

Moses 5:11

11 And Eve, his wife, heard all these things and was glad, saying: Were it not for our transgression we never should have had seed,

Many of the women of note in the scriptures are barren,

see - https://www.lds.org/scriptures/tg/ba...g=eng&letter=b

 

Quote:

Barren, Barrenness

Sarai was barren: Gen. 11:30 .

Isaac entreated the Lord for his wife, because she was barren: Gen. 25:21 .

Rachel was barren: Gen. 29:31 .

There shall nothing … be barren, in thy land: Ex. 23:26 .

not be male or female barren: Deut. 7:14 .

thou art barren: Judg. 13:3 .

Hannah had no children: 1 Sam. 1:2 .

the barren hath born seven: 1 Sam. 2:5 .

there shall not be … barren land: 2 Kgs. 2:21 .

barren woman … to be a joyful mother: Ps. 113:9 .

Sing, O barren, thou that didst not bear: Isa. 54:1 .

they had no child, because that Elisabeth was barren: Luke 1:7 .

Blessed are the barren: Luke 23:29 .

Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not: Gal. 4:27 .

neither be barren … in the knowledge of our Lord: 2 Pet. 1:8 .

because your ground is barren … ye cannot have the fruit thereof: Alma 32:39 .

in the barren deserts there shall come forth pools: D&C 133:29 .

barrenness thereof shall go forth: Moses 7:8 .

I think this represents Heavenly Parents having to wait for children to choose them, I think it represents a different kind of birth.

 

 

God doesn't just "find himself" amongst anything. The word "find" implies discovery or being in circumstances over which one has no control. 

 

The omniscience of God precludes the possibility........

We have free will, and exist independantly of God - He could control us, but He chooses not to.  In the Euthyphro dilema,  "Is what is morally commanded by God because it is morally good, or is it morally good because it is commanded by God?"  I think most Mormons take #1 - that morality exists independantly of God  (See Alma 42 for the circumstances under which God would cease to be God for example). 

 

Either:

a) God is all powerful, created monsters (us), and is the creator of the mess we have here or

b) God is selflessly cleaning up a mess He did not make.

I vote for b)

 

[Palerider]

 

But I just explained a more valid meaning of "find" for this teaching -- For example, during the Creation, the Gods acted or commanded, saw (found) that they were obeyed, and then proceeded to the next step. Same here. God saw that there was a generation of spirit children ready to proceed further. God acts with faith, and then finds (sees) the fruits of that realized faith and action.

 

Omniscience: "I don't think you understand what that word means..."

 

That's not a more "valid" definition of the word "find", especially in the context it was placed. It is however an excellent example of what we call "spin"........

Also, you have actually made it even worse by comparing it to the false doctrine of "the Gods acting and then waiting to see if they were obeyed" by matter. That's just ridiculous.

God is either omnipotent or he is not. He doesn't command matter and then has to hide and wait to see if matter will respond......

I've always thought that part of the D&C was just wacky.

Edited March 3, 2014 by Palerider