President Monson Issued A Court Summons? Is This For Real?

[Kenngo1969]

Does someone like Phillips spend a big fee to take out this summons Sheilauk?

I don't know about the English system or the costs involved there, but I've had people approach me with a legal problem or issue. Before I give them any advice (which I don't/won't do because I'm not licensed), I say, "Well, if you want to sue someone, the first thing you'll have to do is pay a filing fee."  

 

And they say, "Wait.  You're telling me it costs money to sue somebody, even if I don't hire an attorney?"

 

And I always say, "Yup."

 

Usually, they end up concluding that whatever the problem is, it isn't that bad.  Amazing how that works!  

[urroner]

For every word I typed, urroner typed four.  Next time you don't know where to begin Scott, just Google "logical fallacies" and start listing them out.  Don't stop until the critic is buried in words.  If the critic doesn't make a detailed rebuttal, then you can charge his/her posts lack substance.  It's a brilliant strategy--you'll be declared the winner every time!

;0)

 

--Erik

 

PS.  Microsoft's IE 11 doesn't play well with this board...

I forgot to mention that this post of yours is a brilliant example of the straw man fallacy.

[Avatar4321]

Well, I know absolutely nothing about English criminal law and procedure, but if I were a betting man, I know where I'd put my money!

 

Considering you probably  pay tithing i think you may have already put your money there

[why me]

Whyme, mixed response. Ranging from Tom, Steve and Chris being bitter, twisted people who need to move on and get a life. (I know Steve and Chris personally and know this not to be true) to full support.

I like the open letter calling for more honesty and openness. That I can get behind. As for the summons, I just don't know enough about the 2006 fraud act to know if the church has broken the law. Information is out there on the issues in the summons, and surely it would be *buyer beware*?

 

I think that in order to initiate such a case against the lds church, one must be somewhat bitter. There is no getting around that. This is not done as an act of kindness. Or it is done for the publicity that it creates and the wish to be in spotlight.

 

This is certainly not done for the greater good of humanity. I also think that it does shows exmos in a bad light. It shows just what obsession can do to someone. However, it will be interesting to see the outcome.

 

My prediction: nothing will happen but the three involved did get their moment of fame and are now guaranteed an honor spot on the exmo honor board.

 

However, this is a side note to all this. In some way, there has been damage to someone's reputation. Every time someone google's Thomas S. Monson, they will be reading about the fraud charges. How unfortunate that a man who basically did much good will now be associated with fraud even if found innocent.

 

And if I were him and found innocent, I would sue the three for attempting to ruin my reputation.

Edited February 9, 2014 by why me

[why me]

You should be able to rejoin under another user name. Just try to honor their rules. I work hard over here at being respectful: it's doable.

But I think it might be an infraction at CAF for me to post messages from excluded members.

Not that you said anything wrong in this post but---hadn't thought of your not being allowed to post.

It was a fair contribution to the conversation, but I probably shouldn't do it again.

Sorry.

They seemed to have dodged it pretty good. What is amazing just how the part that if a catholic does not pay the church tax, he or she cannot receive holy communion. They haven't addressed that issue. But this is the way it is with people. In europe churches have various means to get money, mainly the forced taxation of the members.

 

Mormons are not forced to pay tithes and mormons are not forced to pay a church tax.

[saemo]

They seemed to have dodged it pretty good. What is amazing just how the part that if a catholic does not pay the church tax, he or she cannot receive holy communion. They haven't addressed that issue. But this is the way it is with people. In europe churches have various means to get money, mainly the forced taxation of the members.

 

Mormons are not forced to pay tithes and mormons are not forced to pay a church tax.

The German Bishops decreed that you can't publicly renounce your faith, and then show up at a church to receive the sacraments. The public renunciation occurs when a German declares to the state they are not Catholic. When a German Catholic declares their faith to the state, they are taxed by the state, and the funds given to the declared religion. Canonically, a public renunciation of the Catholic faith is a form of self excommunication. It would be like resigning from the LDS church and then showing up asking to be married in a temple.

[halconero]

The German Bishops decreed that you can't publicly renounce your faith, and then show up at a church to receive the sacraments. The public renunciation occurs when a German declares to the state they are not Catholic. When a German Catholic declares their faith to the state, they are taxed by the state, and the funds given to the declared religion. Canonically, a public renunciation of the Catholic faith is a form of self excommunication. It would be like resigning from the LDS church and then showing up asking to be married in a temple.

Public renunciation aside, a Catholic that refuses to pay the German church tax can be denied the sacraments.

[saemo]

Public renunciation aside, a Catholic that refuses to pay the German church tax can be denied the sacraments.

Yes, because the procedure for removing yourself from paying the tax requires that you deregister with the state, formally declaring that you are not Catholic. Paperwork is filed with government agencies, and notification to employers is given that the income tax should no longer be deducted from your wages because you are have declared that you are no longer a Catholic.

If you really are still a Catholic, and go through the process to not pay the tax, then you are dishonest.

The solution is to reform the tax law.

The issue is, Catholics are culturally Catholic and former Catholics want to receive the sacraments, because it is traditional to do so. The German Bishops are saying this doesn't fly. If you were Catholic and renounce your faith, you cannot receive the sacraments.

Edited February 9, 2014 by saemo

[flameburns623]

They seemed to have dodged it pretty good. What is amazing just how the part that if a catholic does not pay the church tax, he or she cannot receive holy communion. They haven't addressed that issue. But this is the way it is with people. In europe churches have various means to get money, mainly the forced taxation of the members.

Mormons are not forced to pay tithes and mormons are not forced to pay a church tax.

They have deleted my message quoting you. I cannot seem to send you a private message but--CAF isn't mad about what I shared of your thoughts. They don't want me to encourage your return, however.

Sorry, and that is between you and them: please don't consider my earlier invite as emanating from CAF: I'm just a long-time poster. You'll have to negotiate any reinstatement to CAF with their administrators.

[Thinking]

Well...I listened to Tom Phillip's interview.  I can list some of the points he made, if you'd like but I didn't really learn anything new.  He did say that he was "intensely scrutinized" for over 3 months and then personally called into the judge's courtroom for more questioning before they'd sign off on the summons.  So this was not done lightly....but it sounds odd that it would take that long if he had a strong case IMO.

 

Or it took that long because he is challenging a religious leader and the court was making sure that Tom was serious about it.

[Tacenda]

I read that the church hid the fact that ministers (mission presidents) were paid. I guess there is a requirement to report any monies, stipends, gifts or some such things to the queen, Her Majesty. Apparently there was information given to the MP's on how to handle this, and ways to avoid/hide it. Sheilauk or anybody, could this be a problem? Could even the UK LDS members have to fork over money owed? Sorry if this post is vague or confusing. Has this already been discussed? I'll post more to make more sense if needed.

[Calm]

I read that the church hid the fact that ministers (mission presidents) were paid. I guess there is a requirement to report any monies, stipends, gifts or some such things to the queen, Her Majesty. Apparently there was information given to the MP's on how to handle this, and ways to avoid/hide it. Sheilauk or anybody, could this be a problem? Could even the UK LDS members have to fork over money owed? Sorry if this post is vague or confusing. Has this already been discussed? I'll post more to make more sense if needed.

It wasn't hidden.  The information about the stipends given to the MPs would have been shown on the Church's tax reports, not on the MPs' personal taxes because they weren't paid but given living allowances.  The instruction was to keep stuff separate as they were supposed to be, don't give out Church tax information to your private tax consultants.

 

The same thing was done for us by the US government when my husband was given a Fulbright to teach in Russia.  We were instructed not to consider it a salary by the US government.  Why should the rules be different for the Church?

 

You can argue that some of the stuff perhaps shouldn't have counted like IIRC tuition for kids at Church schools, but tuition for schooling for our kids in Russia was covered as part of our allowance by the US Government.

 

I highly doubt the Church would be more concerned about saving small amounts of money overall than it would be making sure it had a good relationship with the UK government.

Edited February 9, 2014 by calmoriah

[Kenngo1969]

Considering you probably  pay tithing i think you may have already put your money there

Indeed!

[why me]

They have deleted my message quoting you. I cannot seem to send you a private message but--CAF isn't mad about what I shared of your thoughts. They don't want me to encourage your return, however.

Sorry, and that is between you and them: please don't consider my earlier invite as emanating from CAF: I'm just a long-time poster. You'll have to negotiate any reinstatement to CAF with their administrators.

Let me explain it to you. I was banned because of my defense of the lds church. The mods do not like mormons who defend their faith well. Others here can tell you this too who have been banned from that site. The post was deleted because they really do not want the catholics on that forum to know what exactly is going on in other parts of the world when it comes to being a catholic. For example, the catholics on that board were mocking the lds tithe system because one needed to pay a tithe to go to the temple. However, when it was pointed out about the german situation, they ducked for cover. Such is life on CAF. In europe state churches impose taxes on their members. The lutherans do it, the catholics do it etc. And if one wishes not to pay the tax, one must resign their membership. Hundreds of thousands have resigned from both churches because they do not want to pay a church tax. Now let me ask you an honest question. Is that fair? Is that better than the lds tithe?

 

As you know, the holy communion is very important for a catholic and yet, if they don't pay the church tax, they cannot receive it. And just a couple of years ago, they could be excommunicated. Now who has the fairer system? The european lds or the  german catholic?

[why me]

Public renunciation aside, a Catholic that refuses to pay the German church tax can be denied the sacraments.

Here is the catch: The only way for a catholic to opt out of paying the tax is to resign. This rule is imposed by the state church. And if a catholic resigns, they can't take the holy communion. Thousands of germans have resigned from the church because they don't want to support the church. The catholic population in germany has been decimated. Now for catholics to criticize the lds tithe system and not wish to address the countries where the catholic church is a state church and imposed a tax as a tithe on the catholic population and denies them the holy communion because they refuse to pay the tax...well, what can be said?

 

It matters not what is put in the basket...just paying the tithe/tax matters. Now the lds in europe have a much better situation. One does not have to pay tithing to be a member. Think about it.

 

The same holds true for the lutheran state churches. If a person does not want to pay the church tax which in effect supports the church, they must resign. No way out.

[why me]

The German Bishops decreed that you can't publicly renounce your faith, and then show up at a church to receive the sacraments. The public renunciation occurs when a German declares to the state they are not Catholic. When a German Catholic declares their faith to the state, they are taxed by the state, and the funds given to the declared religion. Canonically, a public renunciation of the Catholic faith is a form of self excommunication. It would be like resigning from the LDS church and then showing up asking to be married in a temple.

Not quite. Here is how it works. German catholics must pay the church tax. If not, they can't receive communion. The state church wishes to have control over the flock and the best way to do this is to tie the tax to membership. In a way, it is extortion. A german catholic is forced to pay the tax if they wish to see their child receive their holy communion or confirmation. Or even be buried by the church. I remember that you were complaining about the lds tithe being tied to the temple. Well, this state system is far worse. No tax...no burial. No tax...no church wedding. What your catholic friends implied about the catholic church not counting the tithe contributions from its members is not true in europe where the catholic church is the state church. It is much worse than the lds tithe system.

 

And it is the same with the lutheran state churches.

 

http://yle.fi/uutiset/decline_in_church_membership_will_cost_jobs/6649802

 

Notice the drop in membership. It is the same for the catholic church in germany. No tax...no membership. But for the lds, no tithe, still a member. I like the lds way better.

 

http://www.npr.org/2012/10/09/162570987/german-catholics-path-to-heaven-comes-with-taxes

 

Growing Numbers Are Leaving The Church

 

Christian Weisner, spokesman for the grass-roots Catholic organization We Are Church, says the bishops' decree carries a threatening message that raises the specter of the grave sin of heresy.

"It doesn't use the word 'excommunication' — and actually it is not excommunication — but in fact it is like an excommunication," Weisner says, referring to official expulsion from the church, the ultimate penalty under canon law.

The bishops issued their decree as church defections are growing. In 2010, when the clerical sex abuse scandal exploded in Germany, nearly 200,000 Catholics left the church. In a normal year, it's 100,000.

Church statistics show that only 13 percent of Germany's Catholics attend Mass weekly. And, Weisner says, the majority of those who are observant criticize the church leadership.

"We need and we ask for more transparency and more participation in the decision-making process," he says. "It can't be the case that only the bishop is deciding which parish will get money and which parish will get a new church."

Like Weisner, many German Catholics are starting to resist what they see as taxation without representation.

Edited February 9, 2014 by why me

[why me]

If you really are still a Catholic, and go through the process to not pay the tax, then you are dishonest.

 

The tax is automatically taken out of the paycheck. No choice not to pay. The catholic church in scandinavia asks its members to pay the catholic church what is equal to the lutheran church tax. I am not sure the consequences of not paying the full tithe because it is more of a request.

Edited February 9, 2014 by why me

[why me]

Public renunciation aside, a Catholic that refuses to pay the German church tax can be denied the sacraments.

Since the tax is automatically taken out of their paycheck, the only way not to pay is to resign. The catch is: by refusing to pay the tax, the membership is cancelled by the catholic church. Thus, no church burial, no holy communion, no church wedding etc. However, when it comes to the lds, people regardless of status, can always get married in the church and have a church burial etc.

 

People in other churches need to look deep into their own church before mocking the lds tithe system. No one is forced to pay tithing in the lds church. One can also take the sacrament.

[saemo]

The tax is automatically taken out of the paycheck. No choice not to pay. The catholic church in scandinavia asks its members to pay the catholic church what is equal to the lutheran church tax. I am not sure the consequences of not paying the full tithe because it is more of a request.

A tax is not a tithe.

The German Church isn't requiring something the universal Church is not. The Catholic Church requires fidelity to receive the sacraments, always has, always will. If a Catholic in Germany refuses to obey a directive of their Bishops, they have put themselves outside of communion.

Not all cultures are the same as the U.S. The church tax in Germany and other European countries, comes from the old pre-Christian cultural practice where community leaders collected funds for the communities religious needs. Culturally, if you are not contributing to the religious need of your community, it is viewed as saying you do not belong to that community. If you are going to declare in this cultural fashion that you are not a Catholic, then it makes sense you should not receive the sacraments.

There is no comparison to Mormonism because Mormonism is rooted in the financial practices of the modern U.S.A. Your so-called argument is nothing but an anti-Catholic, U.S. centric, red herring.

Edited February 9, 2014 by saemo

[saemo]

Since the tax is automatically taken out of their paycheck, the only way not to pay is to resign. The catch is: by refusing to pay the tax, the membership is cancelled by the catholic church. Thus, no church burial, no holy communion, no church wedding etc. However, when it comes to the lds, people regardless of status, can always get married in the church and have a church burial etc.

People in other churches need to look deep into their own church before mocking the lds tithe system. No one is forced to pay tithing in the lds church. One can also take the sacrament.

Lol, I guess I'll go down to the ward and request a temple sealing. My status shouldn't matter according to you.

Just because you have such a low view of the Catholic sacraments, doesn't mean Catholics do. NO ONE is entitled to receive them.

Edited February 9, 2014 by saemo

[ChristKnight]

Let me explain it to you. I was banned because of my defense of the lds church.

 

Probably not.

 

The mods do not like mormons who defend their faith well.

 

There are a few Latter-day Saints that post there.  They defend the faith well.

 

Others here can tell you this too who have been banned from that site.

 

Yes.  As well, there have been people of many faiths (and non-faiths), including Catholics, banned from that site, for various reasons, and many more that have been suspended and received infractions (Catholics again included).  I don't think it has anything at all to do with defending the LDS (or any other) faith. 

 

 

The post was deleted because they really do not want the catholics on that forum to know what exactly is going on in other parts of the world when it comes to being a catholic. For example, the catholics on that board were mocking the lds tithe system because one needed to pay a tithe to go to the temple. However, when it was pointed out about the german situation, they ducked for cover. Such is life on CAF.

 

Actually, looking at the thread in question, the moderator posted within the thread why the post was deleted.  No need to speculate.  As well, I don't buy your speculation that "they really do not want the catholics on that forum to know what exactly is going on in other parts of the world when it comes to being a catholic".  A simple Google search demonstrates that this issue has actually been discussed on that forum numerous times, in numerous threads, for years.

 

Further, someone in that thread also provided a Catholic perspective on the matter.  So I fail to see where "they ducked for cover". 

 

But I do find it interesting how you always seem to be able to insert Catholicism and/or Catholic Answers Forum into almost every thread you participate in . 

[Abulafia]

1)I think that in order to initiate such a case against the lds church, one must be somewhat bitter. There is no getting around that. This is not done as an act of kindness. Or it is done for the publicity that it creates and the wish to be in spotlight.

 

2)This is certainly not done for the greater good of humanity. I also think that it does shows exmos in a bad light. It shows just what obsession can do to someone. However, it will be interesting to see the outcome.

 

3)My prediction: nothing will happen but the three involved did get their moment of fame and are now guaranteed an honor spot on the exmo honor board.

 

4)However, this is a side note to all this. In some way, there has been damage to someone's reputation. Every time someone google's Thomas S. Monson, they will be reading about the fraud charges. How unfortunate that a man who basically did much good will now be associated with fraud even if found innocent.

 

5)And if I were him and found innocent, I would sue the three for attempting to ruin my reputation.

Okay, I'll take your points and respond as briefly as I can.

1) By that logic, any time the church involves itself in the legal process, it is doing so because it is 'bitter'.  That makes no sense though it may score rhetorical points to use it, and set this in the context of some sort of 'good/evil' narrative.

2) If I trust Steve and Chris's motives (I don't know Tom), then I can vouch for the fact that the only reason they involved themselves was because they want the church to be honest with members and investigators.  I do take the point (that you didn't make) that the church was doing very well in opening up about its past to members anyway.

3) The response by the ex and post mormon community is mixed.  You know this.

4) Actually, it has got people talking, and a lot of active mormons are admitting that though they are finding church history difficult, they still want to stay.  There have been some good conversations over this issue.

5) ..and I would too.  

 

[why me]

A tax is not a tithe.

The German Church isn't requiring something the universal Church is not. The Catholic Church requires fidelity to receive the sacraments, always has, always will. If a Catholic in Germany refuses to obey a directive of their Bishops, they have put themselves outside of communion.

 

Many german catholics have left the fold. They may not agree with you. For many german catholics, a forced tax by the church and whether they pay it or not should not stop them from communion, an important sacrament in the catholic faith. I really don't care one way or another. I just find it hypocritical when people of other faiths criticize the lds faith and yet, make excuses for their own faith. For germans their tax is more than a tithe. No payment, no church benefits.

[why me]

 

But I do find it interesting how you always seem to be able to insert Catholicism and/or Catholic Answers Forum into almost every thread you participate in . 

Well, it is not easy to see the lds church being dragged through the mud over there, especially about the Thomas S. Monson episode about tithing. We need to remember that Britain is apart of Europe and to have people of other faiths mock the lds tithing principle and yet, just how state churches in europe force a tithe or lose membership, well.. what can I say?

[why me]

2) If I trust Steve and Chris's motives (I don't know Tom), then I can vouch for the fact that the only reason they involved themselves was because they want the church to be honest with members and investigators.  I do take the point (that you didn't make) that the church was doing very well in opening up about its past to members anyway.

 

I am sure that they are nice guys. But the way they have went about it, was not nice. It seems more like payback time. And it must have come from a bitter source. What is honesty? What should the lds church teach its members and investigators? Maybe your two friends could write an lds investigator book and the church could use that with its missionaries. I am afraid that history will always be debatable as will the facts. Impossible to please everyone with interpretations. And the accusation of something hidden is like a bedbug. What church can write a perfect history for its critics? I haven't met one yet. .