Law Of Chastity And Same-Sex Behavior

[CV75]

The church shouldnt have to spell out every exact little detail here although I do think they will have to because the gay population within the church will demand it. Right now it comes down to defining "homosexual behavior". I dont think there is any question about this. Two known gay people holding hands is homosexual behavior. Two known gay people cuddling together on a couch is also homosexual behavior. Two known gay people kissing each other is also homosexual behavior. All of these behaviors I mentioned are sins.

Considering we are a global Church, I think clarification like this would be readily rejected in most of the world where we are wont to go. I think the behaviors you describe are sexual only if they have sexual ramificantions for the participants, regardless of their orientation. That's why we all have to be honest with ourselves, our interviewers and the Lord when it comes to living the law of chastity.

 

In some cultures, men hold hands, sit with arms around each other, hug, kiss, etc.--nothing sexual about it at all. In those cultures, when they covert to the LDS Church, I think they would likely continue these behaviors and hold callings, etc. without any offense to the Lord.

 

In the USA, which seems to be the focus for most of the comments on this thread, holding hands, cuddling, kissing, etc. bewteen teens and adults can (often, usually) carry a sexual connotation, but there is a big difefernce between  an actual connotation to the participants and a perceived connotation to any observers. Why any observer would want a list of approved behaviors for clarification is beyond me, as is why anyone would knowingly send out provocative signals among their community of saints.

 

Personally, I think the only clarification we need is honesty/integrity in what the Holy Ghost is teaching us, both in what we're doing and in judging others.

[CV75]

Oh, I stand corrected. Gays can enjoy the platonic affection that has so inspired all of the great artists and poets. I don't know why ANY of us ever get married in the first place when the Church allows us to be hugged and kissed by our mommies and daddies.

As for exposing my absurdity, I congratulate you. You clearly demonstrated that I should have been more clear to point out that I meant ROMANTIC affections (although perhaps one might assume that in a conversation dealing with the propriety of ROMANTIC same sex relationships). I will be more clear in the future ... And for you, I mean my future postings on this board (as opposed to general discourse outside of this context) Otherwise, you may become confused ... like you did in our reading of the Utah same-sex marriage ruling.

Where romance is a feeling of excitement and mystery, or ardent emotional attachment associated with love, and among those adhering to the law of chastity, is also associated with courtship and wooing for marriage, it does have clear sexual connotations and therefore must be kept within certain forms of expression until fully consummated in marriage. In fact, romance can continue to grow after marriage and its sexual consummation.

I would say that romance crosses the line into sin when its expression elicits a sexual response to the giver and/or receiver that makes one or both sense a compromise of the law of chastity.

[california boy]

The official doctrine of the church is clear. Let me remind you one more time what that doctrine is-

"Homosexual Behavior and Same-Gender Attraction

Homosexual behavior violates the commandments of God, is contrary to the purposes of human sexuality, and deprives people of the blessings that can be found in family life and in the saving ordinances of the gospel. Those who persist in such behavior or who influence others to do so are subject to Church discipline. Homosexual behavior can be forgiven through sincere repentance.

If members engage in homosexual behavior, Church leaders should help them have a clear understanding of faith in Jesus Christ, the process of repentance, and the purpose of life on earth.

While opposing homosexual behavior, the Church reaches out with understanding and respect to individuals who are attracted to those of the same gender.

If members feel same-gender attraction but do not engage in any homosexual behavior, leaders should support and encourage them in their resolve to live the law of chastity and to control unrighteous thoughts. These members may receive Church callings. If they are worthy and qualified in every other way, they may also hold temple recommends and receive temple ordinances."

"The experience of same-sex attraction is a complex reality for many people. The attraction itself is not a sin, but acting on it is. Even though individuals do not choose to have such attractions, they do choose how to respond to them. With love and understanding, the Church reaches out to all God’s children, including our gay and lesbian brothers and sisters."

Your homosexual behavior will have to be repented of at some point or else you will not reside in any part of the kingdom of heaven. Your continued actions are leading you into hell if you so choose to remain unrepentant.

 

I got a great idea.  Since I can't actually answer his question, lets all tell the gay guy he is going to hell.  That will make my sins seem so much less important.

 

Did you even read my post?  I clearly acknowledged what the church policy was concerning homosexual behavior.  The only question I was asking is WHERE did that policy originate from.  You obviously could not come up with a scripture or a revelation prohibiting SSM.

[california boy]

 "Certainly SSM has added a lot to the stability of gay relationships"

Do you have data on this or is it opinion?

 

You need a CFR that marriage helps to stabilize gay relationships?  Is it because you think that gay couples are incapable of having stabile relationships?  Or is it because only heterosexual couples have more stable relationships when they are married.  Or do you not think that marriage stabilizes any relationships.  Or are you just showing your prejudice against gays in believing that their families can be nothing like your family.  They are gay you know.  Before I push the Google button, I want to know why you need a CFR that marriage stabilizes gay relationships.

[Buzzard]

I got a great idea.  Since I can't actually answer his question, lets all tell the gay guy he is going to hell.  That will make my sins seem so much less important.

 

Did you even read my post?  I clearly acknowledged what the church policy was concerning homosexual behavior.  The only question I was asking is WHERE did that policy originate from.  You obviously could not come up with a scripture or a revelation prohibiting SSM.

"Beware of those who would pit the dead prophets against the living prophets, for the living prophets always take precedence."-Ezra Taft Benson. 

Are you really going to claim that the living prophets of our generation have not come out against homosexual behavior and marriage? Society may be veering another way, but society is not led by living prophets.

[Buzzard]

Well since you don't know anything about me, it is probably better for you to focus your judgements on yourself rather than me.  I waited until all of my children were raised and out of the house.  They were either married or away to college.  I still have a very close relationship with my children and their spouses.  My wife fully understands my situation and I continue to have a great relationship with her.  I actually just got off talking on the phone with her for the past hour.  I still resist temptation, serve my family and God.  I am however completely guilty of having found a boyfriend that I dearly love and share my life with him.  So you are free to condemn me for that relationship if you feel it is your duty and will make you feel better.  

Sorry if I come off as judgmental, I certainly have enough sins of my own, and I am working on those every day. But based on the limited information you have provided me, I am just a bit aghast. If your kids are all grown, you and I are about the same age. You are not a 20's-some young man overflowing with hormones and limited life experience. You had raised a family, and based on the callings you said you had held, should have had a mature understanding of the gospel and the plan or redemption. In a very true sense, you were almost there. Having made it through (I'm guessing here) thirty plus years of adulthood as a faithful husband, father, and member of the church, all the while resisting-you may now call it repressing, but I won't-these urges and attractions. 

Do you honestly think God approves more of your new, "honest" life now than he did when you were keeping his commandments despite this temptation towards the same gender?  And if your relationship with your ex-spouse is so great, why not stay married? 

As the risk of TMI, my medical issues and procedures that have preserved my life have made full physical intimacy with my wife impossible these last several years. Do I miss that aspect of my life? Dang straight. As does she. Has is ruined our lives? Hardly. My wife is still my wife, my friend, my companion-and a faithful one. If the shoe were on the other foot, and she had conditions that precluded marital relations, would I be justified in seeking that gratification elsewhere? I mean, the drive would still be there. But I would be a lesser man and would deserve the condemnation of man and God if I did. And I don't see that much of a difference in that situation and the one you have.

So, while I am sure your boyfriend is a great guy, and I hope you are enjoying your life, and the risk of being both blunt and judgmental, considering what you have traded for what you have, I repeat: A mess of pottage. 

Sorry if that comes off wrong, but you wouldn't want me to be dishonest, now would you?

[rpn]

Actually the guidance for all couples isn't murky at all --- anything that intentionally arouses sexual feelings outside of marriage is not okay and should not be continued even a little while or a little bit.

 

The reason that it is more challenging for same gendered couples is that it is not just about sexual arousal, but also about promoting a gay lifestyle.

 

If I were ssattracted, I would give platonic hugs to whomever I wanted, whenever I wanted ---- assuming the other party also wanted and what I was doing was not something other than platonic to them, to the same extent that I did it with opposite sex friends.

 

I would also kiss platonically, and cuddle on the couch platonically to the same extent I did with opposite sex friends.

[why me]

I understand what you are talking about.  From what I hear the 70's were very different from today.  I think that part of the change in culture is the more inclusiveness of society and some religions.  Certainly SSM has added a lot to the stability of gay relationships.  I also think that the more "normal" gays that weren't participating in wild parties were afraid to come out of the closet during the 70's because of the rampant bigoted behavior towards gays.  As those attitudes have shifted, more and more gays that are not into the debauchery of the 70's have been assimulated into society.  

 

Your post certainly makes a great case for stronger religious ties and allowing for the stability that marriage brings.

I think that the moderator misunderstood my post when I got red lettered. I was referring to the time frame and how many heteros felt back then. But one must know the history of gay liberation after the events of stonewall. to understand my post. Actually what happened in the seventies and I am talking about the late seventies was that many people were coming out because of the liberated atmosphere that existed. Gays felt free from the closet. And in this new found freedom many went a little overboard in sexual behavior. And this had terrible consequences for the gay community when hiv/aids appeared on the scene. Greenwich Village was devastated. In the late seventies many gays were coming out of the closet  but the hiv scare kept many inside the closet in the eighties. The stigma of aids was too much for many to come out. We had the deaths of Rock Hudson and Liberace in the public mind too. The virus could not happened at a worst time for gay liberation. It was then that heteros learned why the virus spread so quickly throughout the gay community and this sat back gay liberation. I know this because Greenwich Village was one of my hangouts since I was attending a university near Greenwich Village in the seventies and early eighties.

 

Times may have changed now. The movement has matured and much has leveled off in some sort of normalcy and this has benefited the gay community. But that doesn't change the fact the way religious movements perceive the gay lifestyle because of what their particular scriptures say about homosexuality or the lack of what it says. Most christian religions perceive family to be between a woman and a man.

Edited January 13, 2014 by why me

[Calm]

You need a CFR that marriage helps to stabilize gay relationships?  Is it because you think that gay couples are incapable of having stabile relationships?  Or is it because only heterosexual couples have more stable relationships when they are married.  Or do you not think that marriage stabilizes any relationships.  Or are you just showing your prejudice against gays in believing that their families can be nothing like your family.  They are gay you know.  Before I push the Google button, I want to know why you need a CFR that marriage stabilizes gay relationships.

 

 

I have learned from early on even before getting my degree in psych not to make assumptions, even "common sense" assumptions when it comes to human behavior (it was very surprising to me decades ago to learn that cohabitation before marriage actually correlates negatively with stability for example).  I have seen reports where marriage does stabilize heterosexual relationships, I was thinking that there were likely the same kind of reports for homosexual (at least for unions) and was simply interested in seeing it without drawing any conclusions of what it will likely report one way or the other....just as I did when I first researched whether marriage helped stabilized heterosexual relationships (though I do admit to having some expectations of what those conclusions would likely be).

 

I just got stung for assuming something I had been told 'firsthand' (years ago before gaining the motto 'always see the research first') was accurate in general, reminding me to always check the data before making any claims.  In the future, if this topic were to come up again, I would want to be sure of my facts.

 

I have seen reports comparing homosexual to heterosexual relationship, but don't remember seeing any that compare 'with' and 'without' for homosexuals and would simply like to know if there are some out there seeing as how it is a relatively new relationship here in the US, but perhaps there are some from other countries...haven't been paying much attention to this subject for a few years because I hadn't seen anything new being argued.

Edited January 13, 2014 by calmoriah

[Calm]

 

As the risk of TMI, my medical issues and procedures that have preserved my life h

How about an update on your health in Social if you are comfortable with that.  You haven't said anything for awhile and I've been wondering how you've been doing.  If you would rather not, just pretend this post said "deleted".

Edited January 13, 2014 by calmoriah

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

How about an update on your health in Social if you are comfortable with that.  You haven't said anything for awhile and I've been wondering how you've been doing.  If you would rather not, just pretend this post said "deleted".

I got aggravated at my wife today (and I know this is not directed at me) for telling her home teachers I have a terminal condition. I told her that I don't want sympathy...I got mad and said it does not kill everyone. She said...Bill yes it does! Now everyone is going to act funny in my new Ward. Wh do wives do these kind of things?

[WmLaw]

I really don't understand your thought process sometimes.

http://www.lds.org/topics/hell?lang=eng&query=Hell

My primary and sunday school teachers never taught me about "Hell" either.  I can see where Tacenda is coming from.

Edited January 13, 2014 by WmLaw

[Calm]

But Tacenda has been on the board for a long time and there have been plenty of discussions about postmortal life, plus I know she's been a member for a very long time including the year we went through the Gospel Principles manual.  

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

My primary and sunday school teachers never taught me about "Hell" either.  I can see where Tacenda is coming from.

You must have missed a LOT lessons.

[WmLaw]

But Tacenda has been on the board for a long time and there have been plenty of discussions about postmortal life, plus I know she's been a member for a very long time including the year we went through the Gospel Principles manual.  

Well frankly, if I heard a Mormon tell someone they were going to Hell for being gay, I could have just as easily said something like that's not our doctrine.  Notwithstanding the application of the term "Hell" as shown in your link, I haven't heard it commonly used by Mormon's in my experience.  I do recall hearing plenty of Mormon's proclaim that we don't believe in Hell, as it is taught in many other world religions.

[Calm]

 I do recall hearing plenty of Mormon's proclaim that we don't believe in Hell, as it is taught in many other world religions.

 

If that is what she meant, I don't have a problem with that.

[Buzzard]

How about an update on your health in Social if you are comfortable with that.  You haven't said anything for awhile and I've been wondering how you've been doing.  If you would rather not, just pretend this post said "deleted".

Sent you a PM.

[Buzzard]

Well frankly, if I heard a Mormon tell someone they were going to Hell for being gay, I could have just as easily said something like that's not our doctrine.  Notwithstanding the application of the term "Hell" as shown in your link, I haven't heard it commonly used by Mormon's in my experience.  I do recall hearing plenty of Mormon's proclaim that we don't believe in Hell, as it is taught in many other world religions.

Further complicated by the fact that we have two different meanings of "Hell". First, what we would call spirit prison, where we pay for our unrepentaned and unatoned sins, the opposite of paradise, where the righteous go to rest and await the resurrection. Second, the never-ending regret referenced by King Benjamin that all who fall short of their eternal potential will feel, even in a kingdom of glory. (Mosiah 2:28, for those of you keeping score)

[Rob Osborn]

Just to be clear- LDS doctrine teaches that "all sins" must be repented of if one is to be saved from hell. There will be no place in heaven where a sinner will reside. All unrepentant sinners will go into hell "forever" if they remain unwilling to repent.

[WmLaw]

Just to be clear- LDS doctrine teaches that "all sins" must be repented of if one is to be saved from hell. There will be no place in heaven where a sinner will reside. All unrepentant sinners will go into hell "forever" if they remain unwilling to repent.

Calmoriah, is this the same "hell" that you were referring to?

[california boy]

Sorry if I come off as judgmental, I certainly have enough sins of my own, and I am working on those every day. But based on the limited information you have provided me, I am just a bit aghast. If your kids are all grown, you and I are about the same age. You are not a 20's-some young man overflowing with hormones and limited life experience. You had raised a family, and based on the callings you said you had held, should have had a mature understanding of the gospel and the plan or redemption. In a very true sense, you were almost there. Having made it through (I'm guessing here) thirty plus years of adulthood as a faithful husband, father, and member of the church, all the while resisting-you may now call it repressing, but I won't-these urges and attractions. 

Do you honestly think God approves more of your new, "honest" life now than he did when you were keeping his commandments despite this temptation towards the same gender?  And if your relationship with your ex-spouse is so great, why not stay married? 

As the risk of TMI, my medical issues and procedures that have preserved my life have made full physical intimacy with my wife impossible these last several years. Do I miss that aspect of my life? Dang straight. As does she. Has is ruined our lives? Hardly. My wife is still my wife, my friend, my companion-and a faithful one. If the shoe were on the other foot, and she had conditions that precluded marital relations, would I be justified in seeking that gratification elsewhere? I mean, the drive would still be there. But I would be a lesser man and would deserve the condemnation of man and God if I did. And I don't see that much of a difference in that situation and the one you have.

So, while I am sure your boyfriend is a great guy, and I hope you are enjoying your life, and the risk of being both blunt and judgmental, considering what you have traded for what you have, I repeat: A mess of pottage. 

Sorry if that comes off wrong, but you wouldn't want me to be dishonest, now would you?

 

I would be glad to answer your post because it sounds like you really want to know. I am not telling you why I made the choices I made as some kind of defense or justification for my sins.  I also realize that you may not have made the same decisions I made.  The thing that I have learned about being gay is that it is very difficult for straight people to really know and understand what it is like to live a life being gay.  Oddly enough, it is difficult for me to understand what it would be like to be straight.  I just don't quite know emotionally what it is like to be attracted to a woman, or to be so sure you are on the right path.

 

So with those disclaimers out of the way, I will tell you why I have done what I did.  You are correct.  I was married for almost 30 years.  When I came home from my mission, I was told that I should get  married and the promise was made to me that if I did marry, the homosexual feelings would lessen and maybe even be forgotten.  So I did what I thought God wanted me to do.  I married a very wonderful person who I was friends with.  I remember those first couple of years as being completely frustrating for me.  I am not going to go into detain on this post, but will basically say that NOTHING changed.  It was a false promise.  Perhaps it is when I first realized that not everything church leaders tell us is true. 

 

We had children right away.  I love kids, and I loved being married.  But the whole thing felt like a lie.  It felt dishonest.  It even felt immoral like I was doing something sexual that was completely against my nature.  (Yeah I bet that is a difficult concept for straight people to understand,)  At some point early in my marriage, I knew that I would have to come out.  I knew when I did it would probably end my marriage.  I had thought about the consequences of coming out for literally decades.  It was not a snap decision and it was not based on sexual gratification.  But I had made a commitment to raise my children.  I was not going to be a weekend dad.  So I stayed in the marriage until my last child was in college.  

 

When you are gay but pretending to be straight, you feel like you are lying to everyone.  When someone tells you what a great guy your are or how much they love you, in the back of your mind you are always thinking, would they still feel that way if they knew I was gay.  As it turns out, the answer is no, they don't feel the same way.  Most of those "friends" in the church never talked to me again.  I was no longer the person they wanted me to be, though in reality I was the exact same person I had always been, just a bit more truthful.  But for the first time in my life, I could trust peoples love.  What an amazing feeling that is.  

 

I thought that perhaps our marriage could continue.  Maybe we would become like room mates, each having our own bedrooms. But my wife asked for a divorce.  Quite honestly, she was much more brave than I was.  The truth was, she deserved to move on with her life.  She deserved someone that could connect with her in a way that I could not.

 

Why did I decide to live with a boyfriend?

Mostly because I realized that the promises of the Celestial Kingdom are for heterosexual couples, not gay men.  The idea of being eternally married to a woman was something I just am not interested in.  So what is the point of striving for something that I have no interest in obtaining.  My only hope of wanting the Celestial Kingdom lies in being able to be married to a man.  Someone that I want to share eternity with.  Since this is not church doctrine, it is a false hope.  The only hope I have is that perhaps the modern prophets are products of their time where there is extreme prejudice against gays.  Perhaps they don't know the will of God since there doesn't seem to be any revelation on this subject.  But like you, most member have firmly shut the door on that possibility.  You are probably right.  So whether I am living with a man or not, there is no Celestial Kingdom in my future.  Is God pleased with my decision?  Maybe not.  But I believe He understands my choice and I have enough faith in Him that He will have a place I do fit in.  He knows that I have served him faithfully in every calling I have ever had. He also knows that me being gay is what has separated me from His church.  I await judgement day like everyone else, fully prepared to receive the judgement given to me. If this one sin of wanting to love and be loved is so horrific as to, as you say, send me to hell, then I am prepared to go.  Perhaps my boyfriend will be sent to the same place, and eternity will be what I always dreamed it would be.  Kinda reminds you of the quote by Joseph Smith about following Emma to hell if that is where she will be.  Maybe my feelings are not so irrational.

 

Ok now you guys can have at me and tell me how horrible of person I am for the choices I have made.  After all, I did open myself up for that by submitting this post.

[WmLaw]

I would be glad to answer your post because it sounds like you really want to know. I am not telling you why I made the choices I made as some kind of defense or justification for my sins. I also realize that you may not have made the same decisions I made. The thing that I have learned about being gay is that it is very difficult for straight people to really know and understand what it is like to live a life being gay. Oddly enough, it is difficult for me to understand what it would be like to be straight. I just don't quite know emotionally what it is like to be attracted to a woman, or to be so sure you are on the right path.

So with those disclaimers out of the way, I will tell you why I have done what I did. You are correct. I was married for almost 30 years. When I came home from my mission, I was told that I should get married and the promise was made to me that if I did marry, the homosexual feelings would lessen and maybe even be forgotten. So I did what I thought God wanted me to do. I married a very wonderful person who I was friends with. I remember those first couple of years as being completely frustrating for me. I am not going to go into detain on this post, but will basically say that NOTHING changed. It was a false promise. Perhaps it is when I first realized that not everything church leaders tell us is true.

We had children right away. I love kids, and I loved being married. But the whole thing felt like a lie. It felt dishonest. It even felt immoral like I was doing something sexual that was completely against my nature. (Yeah I bet that is a difficult concept for straight people to understand,) At some point early in my marriage, I knew that I would have to come out. I knew when I did it would probably end my marriage. I had thought about the consequences of coming out for literally decades. It was not a snap decision and it was not based on sexual gratification. But I had made a commitment to raise my children. I was not going to be a weekend dad. So I stayed in the marriage until my last child was in college.

When you are gay but pretending to be straight, you feel like you are lying to everyone. When someone tells you what a great guy your are or how much they love you, in the back of your mind you are always thinking, would they still feel that way if they knew I was gay. As it turns out, the answer is no, they don't feel the same way. Most of those "friends" in the church never talked to me again. I was no longer the person they wanted me to be, though in reality I was the exact same person I had always been, just a bit more truthful. But for the first time in my life, I could trust peoples love. What an amazing feeling that is.

I thought that perhaps our marriage could continue. Maybe we would become like room mates, each having our own bedrooms. But my wife asked for a divorce. Quite honestly, she was much more brave than I was. The truth was, she deserved to move on with her life. She deserved someone that could connect with her in a way that I could not.

Why did I decide to live with a boyfriend?

Mostly because I realized that the promises of the Celestial Kingdom are for heterosexual couples, not gay men. The idea of being eternally married to a woman was something I just am not interested in. So what is the point of striving for something that I have no interest in obtaining. My only hope of wanting the Celestial Kingdom lies in being able to be married to a man. Someone that I want to share eternity with. Since this is not church doctrine, it is a false hope. The only hope I have is that perhaps the modern prophets are products of their time where there is extreme prejudice against gays. Perhaps they don't know the will of God since there doesn't seem to be any revelation on this subject. But like you, most member have firmly shut the door on that possibility. You are probably right. So whether I am living with a man or not, there is no Celestial Kingdom in my future. Is God pleased with my decision? Maybe not. But I believe He understands my choice and I have enough faith in Him that He will have a place I do fit in. He knows that I have served him faithfully in every calling I have ever had. He also knows that me being gay is what has separated me from His church. I await judgement day like everyone else, fully prepared to receive the judgement given to me. If this one sin of wanting to love and be loved is so horrific as to, as you say, send me to hell, then I am prepared to go. Perhaps my boyfriend will be sent to the same place, and eternity will be what I always dreamed it would be. Kinda reminds you of the quote by Joseph Smith about following Emma to hell if that is where she will be. Maybe my feelings are not so irrational.

Ok now you guys can have at me and tell me how horrible of person I am for the choices I have made. After all, I did open myself up for that by submitting this post.

thanks for sharing your experiences, CB.

[Rob Osborn]

I would be glad to answer your post because it sounds like you really want to know. I am not telling you why I made the choices I made as some kind of defense or justification for my sins.  I also realize that you may not have made the same decisions I made.  The thing that I have learned about being gay is that it is very difficult for straight people to really know and understand what it is like to live a life being gay.  Oddly enough, it is difficult for me to understand what it would be like to be straight.  I just don't quite know emotionally what it is like to be attracted to a woman, or to be so sure you are on the right path.

 

So with those disclaimers out of the way, I will tell you why I have done what I did.  You are correct.  I was married for almost 30 years.  When I came home from my mission, I was told that I should get  married and the promise was made to me that if I did marry, the homosexual feelings would lessen and maybe even be forgotten.  So I did what I thought God wanted me to do.  I married a very wonderful person who I was friends with.  I remember those first couple of years as being completely frustrating for me.  I am not going to go into detain on this post, but will basically say that NOTHING changed.  It was a false promise.  Perhaps it is when I first realized that not everything church leaders tell us is true. 

 

We had children right away.  I love kids, and I loved being married.  But the whole thing felt like a lie.  It felt dishonest.  It even felt immoral like I was doing something sexual that was completely against my nature.  (Yeah I bet that is a difficult concept for straight people to understand,)  At some point early in my marriage, I knew that I would have to come out.  I knew when I did it would probably end my marriage.  I had thought about the consequences of coming out for literally decades.  It was not a snap decision and it was not based on sexual gratification.  But I had made a commitment to raise my children.  I was not going to be a weekend dad.  So I stayed in the marriage until my last child was in college.  

 

When you are gay but pretending to be straight, you feel like you are lying to everyone.  When someone tells you what a great guy your are or how much they love you, in the back of your mind you are always thinking, would they still feel that way if they knew I was gay.  As it turns out, the answer is no, they don't feel the same way.  Most of those "friends" in the church never talked to me again.  I was no longer the person they wanted me to be, though in reality I was the exact same person I had always been, just a bit more truthful.  But for the first time in my life, I could trust peoples love.  What an amazing feeling that is.  

 

I thought that perhaps our marriage could continue.  Maybe we would become like room mates, each having our own bedrooms. But my wife asked for a divorce.  Quite honestly, she was much more brave than I was.  The truth was, she deserved to move on with her life.  She deserved someone that could connect with her in a way that I could not.

 

Why did I decide to live with a boyfriend?

Mostly because I realized that the promises of the Celestial Kingdom are for heterosexual couples, not gay men.  The idea of being eternally married to a woman was something I just am not interested in.  So what is the point of striving for something that I have no interest in obtaining.  My only hope of wanting the Celestial Kingdom lies in being able to be married to a man.  Someone that I want to share eternity with.  Since this is not church doctrine, it is a false hope.  The only hope I have is that perhaps the modern prophets are products of their time where there is extreme prejudice against gays.  Perhaps they don't know the will of God since there doesn't seem to be any revelation on this subject.  But like you, most member have firmly shut the door on that possibility.  You are probably right.  So whether I am living with a man or not, there is no Celestial Kingdom in my future.  Is God pleased with my decision?  Maybe not.  But I believe He understands my choice and I have enough faith in Him that He will have a place I do fit in.  He knows that I have served him faithfully in every calling I have ever had. He also knows that me being gay is what has separated me from His church.  I await judgement day like everyone else, fully prepared to receive the judgement given to me. If this one sin of wanting to love and be loved is so horrific as to, as you say, send me to hell, then I am prepared to go.  Perhaps my boyfriend will be sent to the same place, and eternity will be what I always dreamed it would be.  Kinda reminds you of the quote by Joseph Smith about following Emma to hell if that is where she will be.  Maybe my feelings are not so irrational.

 

Ok now you guys can have at me and tell me how horrible of person I am for the choices I have made.  After all, I did open myself up for that by submitting this post.

Its my honest belief that God will have no gay relationships in any part of his kingdom in eternity. He did not create man this way and in the cases where gender identification has been screwed up he will fix that and make his creation perfect. I do honestly believe that most gay people are not born that way but do indeed have things that happen to them early in life that modifies their behavior. These too will be fixed or allowed to reroute their course before resurrection and judgment. Let me ask you this-

 

What would happen if in the next life God was to make your body perfect and then you were able to find feelings of natural attraction to the opposite sex? Are you going to move in the order of your newfound attraction? Its rather obvious you will. But lets say there is nothing wrong and you have just chosen that lifestyle, will God make you change? No. And this is where I feel "repentance" comes into play in almost every case to some degree. I have been around enough "actively gay" people to realize that they are almost no different than those heterosexuals who constantly look at pornography, cheat on their spouse, etc. It comes right down to the fact that most enjoy the "wildness" or "erotic fantasy" of their sin and pleasure.

[Calm]

A guy who is willing to stay three decades in a marriage because of the commitment he made to his children and remain faithful to his wife even while not physically attracted to her does not sound like a guy who constantly looks at porn and cheats on his wife.

Sounds to me like cb got trapped in a situation due to false expectations that were well intended but wrong and made a choice on how best to live up to the commitments he had made.

If not too intrusive, cb, has your wife ever expressed the opinion that she would have preferred you be open with her inspite of what that would mean for the kids (I get the putting the needs of innocent children you are responsible first as well as the risk of not being able to do so if completely open, but I just couldn't get past the lack of openness myself...but that is me and others may be different)?

"even felt immoral like I was doing something sexual that was completely against my nature"

Since physical intimacy is about opening up your deepest self to the other...or should be, I can see why it would feel wrong if one was lying in that relationship, especially about the act itself...it would be a betrayal of oneself and the other.

Edited January 13, 2014 by calmoriah

[california boy]

Its my honest belief that God will have no gay relationships in any part of his kingdom in eternity. He did not create man this way and in the cases where gender identification has been screwed up he will fix that and make his creation perfect. I do honestly believe that most gay people are not born that way but do indeed have things that happen to them early in life that modifies their behavior. These too will be fixed or allowed to reroute their course before resurrection and judgment. Let me ask you this-

 

What would happen if in the next life God was to make your body perfect and then you were able to find feelings of natural attraction to the opposite sex? Are you going to move in the order of your newfound attraction? Its rather obvious you will. But lets say there is nothing wrong and you have just chosen that lifestyle, will God make you change? No. And this is where I feel "repentance" comes into play in almost every case to some degree. I have been around enough "actively gay" people to realize that they are almost no different than those heterosexuals who constantly look at pornography, cheat on their spouse, etc. It comes right down to the fact that most enjoy the "wildness" or "erotic fantasy" of their sin and pleasure.

Yeah well you aren't gay are you.  You really have no idea how a gay person feels.  It is my honest opinion that people who are willing to think that most gays "constantly look at ponography, cheat on their spouses and enjoy the wildness" find it easy to demonize all gay people and believe that they choose that lifestyle.  No wonder you make some of the assumptions that you do.