CV75 Posted January 13, 2014 Posted January 13, 2014 The rule against homosexual conduct is applied equally across the membership.No, the teachings of sexual purity are equally applied across all Church memebrship: https://www.lds.org/youth/for-the-strength-of-youth/sexual-purity?lang=eng I would think that any so-called "rule against homosexual conduct" is only in response to a question or condern that requires, for some reason, endulging in spelling out a proscription in terms specific to the circumstances at hand that the teachin linked above already adresses. CFR for "rule against homosexual conduct" since I'd like to see it context--thank you. I also challenge you to practice celebacy for awhile, explain your reasoning to those your are trying to help (and ask them how long you should remain celebate), share with them how you are remaining faithful to the Lord, and let us know how well it works! Maybe you can start a "Wear Your Chastity Celebacy Belt to Church Day" campaign!
california boy Posted January 13, 2014 Posted January 13, 2014 And that is why the gospel talks so much about enduring to the end. From what you describe, you were living a faithful life. You were resisting temptation and serving your family, your fellow man, and God.I don't know your current circumstances, but I wonder what kind of wreckage your deciding to "come out" has left behind. Your former spouse, your kids, the ward members who looked up to you, they might feel a little different about your self-liberation.I guess I don't really know, since you and I are both anonymous posters on an Internet forum, but I hope you will forgive me if I don't congratulate you on being full of courage.The phrase "mess of pottage" comes to mind. Well since you don't know anything about me, it is probably better for you to focus your judgements on yourself rather than me. I waited until all of my children were raised and out of the house. They were either married or away to college. I still have a very close relationship with my children and their spouses. My wife fully understands my situation and I continue to have a great relationship with her. I actually just got off talking on the phone with her for the past hour. I still resist temptation, serve my family and God. I am however completely guilty of having found a boyfriend that I dearly love and share my life with him. So you are free to condemn me for that relationship if you feel it is your duty and will make you feel better.
CV75 Posted January 13, 2014 Posted January 13, 2014 If so, this fact needs to be more widely known.My goodness, it's a simple question to the Bishop! "How far can we (did we) go?" Aside from that, people best answer their worthiness interview questions according to their own conscience.
california boy Posted January 13, 2014 Posted January 13, 2014 Its quite obvious that you do not look at the current church prophets as being led by God. The prophet is the voice of God- as we believe so. God has spoken on the practice of homosexuality- its a sin- plain and simple. Making ti so that gays can marry solves no problem because God has already said that any sexual relations outside of marriage as defined by marriage between man and woman is a sin. You can try to justify your sins before God all you want, if you believe it will get you somewhere but do realize that it is a sin, you know it and so does the church leaders know it.I do understand the role of prophets. I also fully understand that not everything prophets say comes from God. I also understand the current church policy forbidding gay marriage. And I have no problem with the church having such a policy. But I also understand that this stance is policy and not doctrine. I have yet to read any canonized scripture or revelation from God concerning the inconsistent teaching of the importance of marriage for gay members. I am well aware that the current policy of celibacy and denial of marriage for gay members that goes completely against the plan of salvation for God's straight children. I do not justify my sins. I completely acknowledge them. But then I am not striving for a spot in the Celestial Kingdom where I will be paired eternally with a woman. Just not interested in that kind of eternity for some strange reason. There is nothing in the plan of salvation for God's gay children unless they are magically made straight in the next life. So I plan to go where all the other gay children of God are headed. Hope you will visit me some time in the eternities.
Rob Osborn Posted January 13, 2014 Posted January 13, 2014 The OP question is interesting in light of the frequent statements that gays are simply held to the same standard of chastity as straights, as Brian recognizes. Heterosexual LDS singles, such as myself, are allowed to date, have a romance, hold hands, kiss, and cuddle. I do all these things with my girlfriend, and (rightly) no one questions my worthiness for callings, temple, sacrament, etc. on this basis. If there is just one standard, then gay LDS singles can also do all these things without being denied callings or access to the temple or the sacrament. Can they? If so, this fact needs to be more widely known. If not, we need to find new ways of explaining the church's standard with respect to gays, rather than perpetuate the idea of a single standard, which would mislead people regarding the church's actual position. Don The church shouldnt have to spell out every exact little detail here although I do think they will have to because the gay population within the church will demand it. Right now it comes down to defining "homosexual behavior". I dont think there is any question about this. Two known gay people holding hands is homosexual behavior. Two known gay people cuddling together on a couch is also homosexual behavior. Two known gay people kissing each other is also homosexual behavior. All of these behaviors I mentioned are sins.
california boy Posted January 13, 2014 Posted January 13, 2014 Can I get a CFR on the scriptures that are about homosexuality outside the bonds of marriage? Specifically, I'm looking for where it says that it is only prohibiting homosexuality unless it is within the bounds of marriage. And it really comes down to "is same-sex marriage really a marriage in the eyes of God?" If God doesn't see it as a marriage then even if you are married legally, you are still breaking the law of chastity because to God, you are not married. If we legally expand the concept of marriage to include other relationships, does that mean that God must expand His definition of marriage? Or can man's laws on marriage be different from God's?My statement was that the law of chastity is that sex outside the bonds of marriage is wrong. Do you really need a CFR on that statement? There are scriptures condemning homosexuality that are almost identical to scriptures condemning fornication and adultery. Sex outside the bonds of marriage is a very clear doctrine no matter who is committing the sex. It is you that is claiming a doctrinal statement that this does not apply if you are gay. So I would like a CFR where you can point to either a scripture or a revelation from God that sex INSIDE of marriage for a gay couple is wrong.
Rob Osborn Posted January 13, 2014 Posted January 13, 2014 I do understand the role of prophets. I also fully understand that not everything prophets say comes from God. I also understand the current church policy forbidding gay marriage. And I have no problem with the church having such a policy. But I also understand that this stance is policy and not doctrine. I have yet to read any canonized scripture or revelation from God concerning the inconsistent teaching of the importance of marriage for gay members. I am well aware that the current policy of celibacy and denial of marriage for gay members that goes completely against the plan of salvation for God's straight children. I do not justify my sins. I completely acknowledge them. But then I am not striving for a spot in the Celestial Kingdom where I will be paired eternally with a woman. Just not interested in that kind of eternity for some strange reason. There is nothing in the plan of salvation for God's gay children unless they are magically made straight in the next life. So I plan to go where all the other gay children of God are headed. Hope you will visit me some time in the eternities. The official doctrine of the church is clear. Let me remind you one more time what that doctrine is- "Homosexual Behavior and Same-Gender Attraction Homosexual behavior violates the commandments of God, is contrary to the purposes of human sexuality, and deprives people of the blessings that can be found in family life and in the saving ordinances of the gospel. Those who persist in such behavior or who influence others to do so are subject to Church discipline. Homosexual behavior can be forgiven through sincere repentance. If members engage in homosexual behavior, Church leaders should help them have a clear understanding of faith in Jesus Christ, the process of repentance, and the purpose of life on earth. While opposing homosexual behavior, the Church reaches out with understanding and respect to individuals who are attracted to those of the same gender. If members feel same-gender attraction but do not engage in any homosexual behavior, leaders should support and encourage them in their resolve to live the law of chastity and to control unrighteous thoughts. These members may receive Church callings. If they are worthy and qualified in every other way, they may also hold temple recommends and receive temple ordinances." "The experience of same-sex attraction is a complex reality for many people. The attraction itself is not a sin, but acting on it is. Even though individuals do not choose to have such attractions, they do choose how to respond to them. With love and understanding, the Church reaches out to all God’s children, including our gay and lesbian brothers and sisters." Your homosexual behavior will have to be repented of at some point or else you will not reside in any part of the kingdom of heaven. Your continued actions are leading you into hell if you so choose to remain unrepentant. 1
Rob Osborn Posted January 13, 2014 Posted January 13, 2014 My statement was that the law of chastity is that sex outside the bonds of marriage is wrong. Do you really need a CFR on that statement? There are scriptures condemning homosexuality that are almost identical to scriptures condemning fornication and adultery. Sex outside the bonds of marriage is a very clear doctrine no matter who is committing the sex. It is you that is claiming a doctrinal statement that this does not apply if you are gay. So I would like a CFR where you can point to either a scripture or a revelation from God that sex INSIDE of marriage for a gay couple is wrong. I don't know how one can get this wrong. The church does not recognize a gay married couple as "married"- not legally nor lawfully and especially not according to God's law on marriage. All homesexual behavior is thus a sin regardless if there is some legal union of the couple through government law. Again- The Church does not recognize gay marriages.
Calm Posted January 13, 2014 Posted January 13, 2014 "Certainly SSM has added a lot to the stability of gay relationships"Do you have data on this or is it opinion?
Duncan Posted January 13, 2014 Posted January 13, 2014 The church shouldnt have to spell out every exact little detail here although I do think they will have to because the gay population within the church will demand it. Right now it comes down to defining "homosexual behavior". I dont think there is any question about this. Two known gay people holding hands is homosexual behavior. Two known gay people cuddling together on a couch is also homosexual behavior. Two known gay people kissing each other is also homosexual behavior. All of these behaviors I mentioned are sins. but those things are hardly sins in a heterosexual couple
Calm Posted January 13, 2014 Posted January 13, 2014 but those things are hardly sins in a heterosexual coupleThat would depend on the context surely....
Rob Osborn Posted January 13, 2014 Posted January 13, 2014 but those things are hardly sins in a heterosexual couple There's a world of difference between homosexual behavior and heterosexual behavior. That's the distinction.
Duncan Posted January 13, 2014 Posted January 13, 2014 That would depend on the context surely.... http://deseretbook.com/Kissing-Sinful-Grant-Von-Harrison/i/3385902
wenglund Posted January 13, 2014 Posted January 13, 2014 This is what makes our church's stance towards gays and lesbians cruel. We banish them to a life without affection of ANY kind. Could you please point me to the Church directive that prohibits parents, family, and friends from being affectionate (hugging and kissing and holding hands) with their gay relations? I ask knowing full well the answer, and with the intent of exposing the absurdity of your comment. Thanks, -Wade Englund-
wenglund Posted January 13, 2014 Posted January 13, 2014 My statement was that the law of chastity is that sex outside the bonds of marriage is wrong. Do you really need a CFR on that statement? Clearly, this simple explanation of the law of chastity is dependent upon how one defines the word "marriage." Thanks, -Wade Englund-
Tacenda Posted January 13, 2014 Posted January 13, 2014 The official doctrine of the church is clear. Let me remind you one more time what that doctrine is-"Homosexual Behavior and Same-Gender AttractionHomosexual behavior violates the commandments of God, is contrary to the purposes of human sexuality, and deprives people of the blessings that can be found in family life and in the saving ordinances of the gospel. Those who persist in such behavior or who influence others to do so are subject to Church discipline. Homosexual behavior can be forgiven through sincere repentance.If members engage in homosexual behavior, Church leaders should help them have a clear understanding of faith in Jesus Christ, the process of repentance, and the purpose of life on earth.While opposing homosexual behavior, the Church reaches out with understanding and respect to individuals who are attracted to those of the same gender.If members feel same-gender attraction but do not engage in any homosexual behavior, leaders should support and encourage them in their resolve to live the law of chastity and to control unrighteous thoughts. These members may receive Church callings. If they are worthy and qualified in every other way, they may also hold temple recommends and receive temple ordinances.""The experience of same-sex attraction is a complex reality for many people. The attraction itself is not a sin, but acting on it is. Even though individuals do not choose to have such attractions, they do choose how to respond to them. With love and understanding, the Church reaches out to all God’s children, including our gay and lesbian brothers and sisters."Your homosexual behavior will have to be repented of at some point or else you will not reside in any part of the kingdom of heaven. Your continued actions are leading you into hell if you so choose to remain unrepentant.Hell? I didn't think LDS believed in hell, unless you deny the Holy Ghost or I should say, a sure knowledge of our Saviour. So atleast you could say the telestial kingdom, which btw, I don't know exists, but certainly not hell. I think you stepped in it big time, saying this.
Rob Osborn Posted January 13, 2014 Posted January 13, 2014 Hell? I didn't think LDS believed in hell, unless you deny the Holy Ghost or I should say, a sure knowledge of our Saviour. So atleast you could say the telestial kingdom, which btw, I don't know exists, but certainly not hell. I think you stepped in it big time, saying this.Oh yes, for sure- hell. The unrepentant will and must go to hell. I would hope and pray that all would repent, including myself from "all sin" otherwise its straight to hell
Tacenda Posted January 13, 2014 Posted January 13, 2014 Oh yes, for sure- hell. The unrepentant will and must go to hell. I would hope and pray that all would repent, including myself from "all sin" otherwise its straight to hellThat's not our doctrine though.
Rob Osborn Posted January 13, 2014 Posted January 13, 2014 That's not our doctrine though.Its part of the gospel. All unrepentant sinners go to hell
EllenMaksoud Posted January 13, 2014 Posted January 13, 2014 Both sides are obviously passing in the night fog. I wonder what we will be thinking in 2034?
Brian 2.0 Posted January 13, 2014 Author Posted January 13, 2014 That's not our doctrine though.Sure it is. D&C 19 is the best support for it. 17 But if they would not repent they must asuffer even as I; 18 Which asuffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might bnot drink the bitter cup, and shrink—Mormons definitely believe in hell, a place where you suffer for your sins because you didn't accept Christ. The difference is its not a permanent resting place. Once that suffering has paid the price they get out of hell and inherit the telestial kingdom. Those that go to outer darkness don't get that same deal though. 1
Calm Posted January 13, 2014 Posted January 13, 2014 That's not our doctrine though.I really don't understand your thought process sometimes. http://www.lds.org/topics/hell?lang=eng&query=Hell
DonBradley Posted January 13, 2014 Posted January 13, 2014 The church shouldnt have to spell out every exact little detail here although I do think they will have to because the gay population within the church will demand it. Right now it comes down to defining "homosexual behavior". I dont think there is any question about this. Two known gay people holding hands is homosexual behavior. Two known gay people cuddling together on a couch is also homosexual behavior. Two known gay people kissing each other is also homosexual behavior. All of these behaviors I mentioned are sins. My point was simply that these behaviors would appear to be disproved or forbidden for gays, yet we also say we hold gays to the same standard as straights. But if straights can do a great many things together that gays cannot, then there is not one uniform standard but two standards--one for straights and one for gays. And if that's the case, we should say so, instead of saying there is only one standard. As it is, we're giving and getting mixed messages. This should be changed so that, whatever the standard is, it's taught with crystal clear consistency. Don 3
mormonnewb Posted January 13, 2014 Posted January 13, 2014 Could you please point me to the Church directive that prohibits parents, family, and friends from being affectionate (hugging and kissing and holding hands) with their gay relations? I ask knowing full well the answer, and with the intent of exposing the absurdity of your comment. Thanks, -Wade Englund-Oh, I stand corrected. Gays can enjoy the platonic affection that has so inspired all of the great artists and poets. I don't know why ANY of us ever get married in the first place when the Church allows us to be hugged and kissed by our mommies and daddies.As for exposing my absurdity, I congratulate you. You clearly demonstrated that I should have been more clear to point out that I meant ROMANTIC affections (although perhaps one might assume that in a conversation dealing with the propriety of ROMANTIC same sex relationships). I will be more clear in the future ... And for you, I mean my future postings on this board (as opposed to general discourse outside of this context) Otherwise, you may become confused ... like you did in our reading of the Utah same-sex marriage ruling.
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