Alternative Look At The Proclamation

[The Nehor]

I don't buy the sexist argument about sheltering Heavenly Mother either. But anthropomorphising God is part of Mormon theology, as we believe Heavenly Father to be an exalted man, so I don't buy your argument either. So that leaves us simply ignorant about Heavenly Mother. So if the Church is going to continue to push this eternal gender doctrine, I suspect eventually the Prophet will have to start giving more information about Heavenly Mother than is currently being made available. Perhaps like racism, society has to continue to develop until sexism is as unacceptable as racism.

 

Anthropomorphizing in the literal sense because they have bodies is built in to the theology but I think there is a tendency to turn them into mortals who are just smarter. I know I have fallen into that trap a few times. I don't think the Prophet will have to do anything. We'll either get more or we won't.

[Calm]

only the children will be born into a world of celestial glory.

 

With or without physical bodies...and if with just like here, then how does that work?  Why are they given physical bodies without going through mortality but those of us who have did it this way?

 

And if they are spirit only...then birth is most definitely not just like here.

[Calm]

Don't know as that is true, we know a fair amount about what Heavenly Father does, currently we know exactly zip about Heavenly Mother. 

She is a Mother...that is not exactly "zip".

Edited January 8, 2014 by calmoriah

[Anne E. Prufe]

Reaction to the Proclamation tends to vary greatly from it being a massively important statement of Church Policy to something crafted by the Church legal department as a defensive shield in anticipation of a SCOTUS opinion on SSM. It, however, occurred to me that it is also reminiscent of the days when Asherah was worshipped in the Temple as God's consort. Asherah has in modern times been discounted and dismissed as a fertility goddess . So the question arises, is the focus on women's primary role as bearing, nurturing, and educating women coupled with service to those in need a partial return to the idea of exalted women being fertility goddesses ?

 

You seem to have the same "high" opinion of the Proclamation as one of my former BYU professor friends.

 

"you would not be aware of the serious internal turmoil I nearly always feel when I notice the Proclamation on the Family mounted on the wall of a home I'm visiting and remember how often in a Church setting that document is used to justify erroneous statements, insensitivity, and unChristian remarks or behavior . . ." http://www.sunstonemagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/sbi/issues/129.pdf

[teddyaware]

With or without physical bodies...and if with just like here, then how does that work?  Why are they given physical bodies without going through mortality but those of us who have did it this way?

 

And if they are spirit only...then birth is most definitely not just like here.

I didn't say life in heaven is "just like" life here in mortality. What I was I trying to say is that life in heaven is probably "much like" it is here. There is an important difference between 'just like' and 'much like.' That's why I quoted the Prophet Joseph Smith when he said "that same sociality which exists among us here will exist among us there, only it will be coupled with eternal glory, which glory we do not now enjoy." The point being that life in heaven isn't likely going to be totally different from life on earth but will be a more exalted version of the same. Husbands will still love their wives and wives will still love their husbands but their mutual love, affection and consideration for each other will be perfect. Parents will still love their children, just as they do here, but their love will be made perfect. I'm sorry if I didn't make myself clear.

[JLHPROF]

Don't know as that is true, we know a fair amount about what Heavenly Father does, currently we know exactly zip about Heavenly Mother. Yet, we are told that gender is eternal and therefore the roles are eternal. Is it so illogical then that Ancients might have had more teachings about the role than we have today?

 

Oh, we know more than we realize, but it's not "official doctrine".  If we read items like Women of Mormondom, Origin & Destiny of Woman, and others we begin to understand the role of Heavenly Mother and a little reasoning can provide more insight.

But it's true, we know far more about the role of Heavenly Father.

[Calm]

I didn't say life in heaven is "just like" life here in mortality. What I was I trying to say is that life in heaven is probably "much like" it is here. There is an important difference between 'just like' and 'much like.' That's why I quoted the Prophet Joseph Smith when he said "that same sociality which exists among us here will exist among us there, only it will be coupled with eternal glory, which glory we do not now enjoy." The point being that life in heaven isn't likely going to be totally different from life on earth but will be a more exalted version of the same. Husbands will still love their wives and wives will still love their husbands but their mutual love, affection and consideration for each other will be perfect. Parents will still love their children, just as they do here, but their love will be made perfect. I'm sorry if I didn't make myself clear.

You are right...that was me typing too quickly while waiting to get picked up to go for my temple recommend interview...I meant to quote you with the "much like" and it came out "just like", my apologies.  It was a serious question by the way...I get the sociality bit being similar, only much, much better.  While there is a difference in kind in sociality in children and adults, there is still enough similarities of caring and awareness for those we love that I can see how in someone even more 'adult' or mature or actually perfect takes those qualities and raises them exponentially, but still recognizable.  There are some other things though that I think will be so different in kind that we can't really imagine it....such as having perfect bodies rather than having to be aware of not getting injured or old or worrying about whether or not you will be able to get out of bed the next day.  That mindset of having eternity to live in instead of a limit you know you are going to reach as soon as you comprehend aging and death....how that would change how one approaches things.  And then there is the knowledge and control over one's environment.  I am amazed at the change in attitudes just in the time the internet has become a staple in most homes, where information is at one's fingertips instantly....doesn't mean people are actually using it wisely, but what if we were perfectly wise as well as had perfect access to all knowledge...big change there I am thinking.

[teddyaware]

You are right...that was me typing too quickly while waiting to get picked up to go for my temple recommend interview...I meant to quote you with the "much like" and it came out "just like", my apologies.  It was a serious question by the way...I get the sociality bit being similar, only much, much better.  While there is a difference in kind in sociality in children and adults, there is still enough similarities of caring and awareness for those we love that I can see how in someone even more 'adult' or mature or actually perfect takes those qualities and raises them exponentially, but still recognizable.  There are some other things though that I think will be so different in kind that we can't really imagine it....such as having perfect bodies rather than having to be aware of not getting injured or old or worrying about whether or not you will be able to get out of bed the next day.  That mindset of having eternity to live in instead of a limit you know you are going to reach as soon as you comprehend aging and death....how that would change how one approaches things.  And then there is the knowledge and control over one's environment.  I am amazed at the change in attitudes just in the time the internet has become a staple in most homes, where information is at one's fingertips instantly....doesn't mean people are actually using it wisely, but what if we were perfectly wise as well as had perfect access to all knowledge...big change there I am thinking.

I agree with you. That's why I said I'm sure there will be many surprises when we get there. Some of those "surprises" (more properly and formally called hidden mysteries) will be so surprising that if they were to be revealed at a time before the people are fully ready to receive them, many would blow a fuse! So, as usual, we're both right.

Edited January 8, 2014 by teddyaware

[Stone holm]

With or without physical bodies...and if with just like here, then how does that work?  Why are they given physical bodies without going through mortality but those of us who have did it this way?

 

And if they are spirit only...then birth is most definitely not just like here.

I assume he was talking about spirit children which are indeed born on the celestial planet of their Heavenly Parents.

[Glenn101]

Asking the right questions is more important than having the right answers.

 

    I copied your sig line because I thought that it might just be apprortate here to ask what you mean and understand by "fertility Goddess".

I always think of such not as one who blesses her faitful followers in the matters of fertility etc. rather than one who actually does a bunch of childbearing.

 

Glenn

[Stone holm]

    I copied your sig line because I thought that it might just be apprortate here to ask what you mean and understand by "fertility Goddess".

I always think of such not as one who blesses her faitful followers in the matters of fertility etc. rather than one who actually does a bunch of childbearing.

 

Glenn

 

Is that a accurate summation of the worship of Asherah or Ishtar or other fertility goddesses?  I don't know, so that is an actual question not an attack.  It seems possible to me that it went farther than that since the idea of producing children, may have also implicitly included the care, nurture and raising of the same -- remembering, that "adolesence" is a modern invention.  Do we then view the idea of "fertility" in this sense simply something that inspires a baby factory?  Despite the modern tendency to view the Ancients and benighted idiots, somehow I question that.

[The Nehor]

I copied your sig line because I thought that it might just be apprortate here to ask what you mean and understand by "fertility Goddess".

I always think of such not as one who blesses her faitful followers in the matters of fertility etc. rather than one who actually does a bunch of childbearing.

 

Glenn

Most fertility goddesses did both. I think the main reason they had to be careful in Israel is that at the time the difference between a fetility goddess worship ceremony and an orgy was often a kind of hair-splitting

[cinepro]

I personally heard Elder Ballard state over the pulpit that every single word in the Proclamation was chosen and prayed over by the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve.  

 

Just for reference, are you referring to this talk?

 

Brothers and sisters, this year marks the 10th anniversary of the proclamation to the world on the family, which was issued by the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles in 1995 (see “The Family: A Proclamation to the World,” Liahona, Oct. 2004, 49; Ensign, Nov. 1995, 102). It was then and is now a clarion call to protect and strengthen families and a stern warning in a world where declining values and misplaced priorities threaten to destroy society by undermining its basic unit.

The proclamation is a prophetic document, not only because it was issued by prophets but because it was ahead of its time. It warns against many of the very things that have threatened and undermined families during the last decade and calls for the priority and the emphasis families need if they are to survive in an environment that seems ever more toxic to traditional marriage and to parent-child relationships.

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2005/10/what-matters-most-is-what-lasts-longest?lang=eng

[cinepro]

Greg Prince had an interview with Chieko Okazaki in the Spring 2012 Dialogue magazine where she says:

 

“In 1995 when ‘The Family: a Proclamation to the World’ was written, the Relief Society presidency was asked to come to a meeting. We did, and they read this proclamation. It was all finished. The only question was whether they should present it at the priesthood meeting or at the Relief Society meeting. It didn’t matter to me where it was presented. What I wanted to know was, ‘How come we weren’t consulted?’

“Greg Prince: You didn’t even know it was in the works?”

“Chieko Okazaki: No. They just asked us which meeting to present it in, and we said, ‘Whatever President Hinckley decides is fine with us.’ He decided to do it at the Relief Society meeting. The apostle who was our liaison said, ‘Isn’t it wonderful that he made the choice to present it at the Relief Society meeting?’ Well, that was fine, but as I read it I thought that we could have made a few changes in it.” (page 136)

[Garden Girl]

Or perhaps good King Josiah purged the teachings as has been suggested, and the Catholics purged the teachings of Mary Magdalene. But what do you take as the role of women in the Proclamation.

 

Good morning Stone Holm... and Teddyaware... on a rainy, wintery Pac Northwest morning at the beach...

 

First, for Teddy... you did use the phrase "just as they do here" twice... as in, "husbands will enjoy intimacy with their wives just as they do here."   I've stated in previous discussions that I don't believe intimacy or the process of creating children will be "just as we do here"... but will be on a different and higher plane.  I do not see the role of women as being eternally pregnant "just as they are here" nor "fertility goddesses."  Rather, IMO I see her as a partner and equal in the process of creating...  I do not believe we have a real, or complete, understanding because D&C 101:32-34 tells me that when the Lord comes in his glory, he will reveal all things... things that we did not know... that were hidden... things of the earth, by which it was made..."  which means to me we don't really know how things were created regardless of scientific knowledge that has been gained.  There will probably be parallels of course, but to create life on earth seems to require both male and female components (except for a few obscure species)... even plants... but just what that process will be in celestial worlds IMO is unknown...

 

And for Stone Holm...  In answer to your question...

I for one esteem the Proclamation... but I read it mainly as intended for our life here in this estate... yet again we have no real information about women's post mortal role...  but here the earthly pattern has always been that the man is the main breadwinner/provider, while the woman is the heart and nurturer of the home... it's been this way since man went out to find food while the woman tended the fire... it is essentially the same today, except current economic, educational, social and political influences impact these roles today differently than in the past, many times out of necessity.  But I don't care if a woman has a Ph.D., when the kids are sick they still want Mommy... and it is the woman who provides most of the family's nurturing... and I don't see what is so wrong with that.  Why some women today feel being a nurturer is so demeaning.

Nurturing has been defined as rearing, feeding, training, educating... loving... if the family dynamics are right, the woman has equal say with her husband...

I couple this with the temple ordinances and blessings and they have nothing to do with being a "fertility goddess," whatever that means...

 

GG

[Stone holm]

Good morning Stone Holm... and Teddyaware... on a rainy, wintery Pac Northwest morning at the beach...

 

First, for Teddy... you did use the phrase "just as they do here" twice... as in, "husbands will enjoy intimacy with their wives just as they do here."   I've stated in previous discussions that I don't believe intimacy or the process of creating children will be "just as we do here"... but will be on a different and higher plane.  I do not see the role of women as being eternally pregnant "just as they are here" nor "fertility goddesses."  Rather, IMO I see her as a partner and equal in the process of creating...  I do not believe we have a real, or complete, understanding because D&C 101:32-34 tells me that when the Lord comes in his glory, he will reveal all things... things that we did not know... that were hidden... things of the earth, by which it was made..."  which means to me we don't really know how things were created regardless of scientific knowledge that has been gained.  There will probably be parallels of course, but to create life on earth seems to require both male and female components (except for a few obscure species)... even plants... but just what that process will be in celestial worlds IMO is unknown...

 

And for Stone Holm...  In answer to your question...

I for one esteem the Proclamation... but I read it mainly as intended for our life here in this estate... yet again we have no real information about women's post mortal role...  but here the earthly pattern has always been that the man is the main breadwinner/provider, while the woman is the heart and nurturer of the home... it's been this way since man went out to find food while the woman tended the fire... it is essentially the same today, except current economic, educational, social and political influences impact these roles today differently than in the past, many times out of necessity.  But I don't care if a woman has a Ph.D., when the kids are sick they still want Mommy... and it is the woman who provides most of the family's nurturing... and I don't see what is so wrong with that.  Why some women today feel being a nurturer is so demeaning.

Nurturing has been defined as rearing, feeding, training, educating... loving... if the family dynamics are right, the woman has equal say with her husband...

I couple this with the temple ordinances and blessings and they have nothing to do with being a "fertility goddess," whatever that means...

 

GG

I don't really know what "fertility goddess" means, it appears to me that possibly is used as a phrase to dismiss the Ancients attempt to identify with the Divine feminine and worship Heavenly Mother. But you left out the explanation of what the Proclamation is describing the role of women in the eternities.

[teddyaware]

Good morning Stone Holm... and Teddyaware... on a rainy, wintery Pac Northwest morning at the beach...

 

First, for Teddy... you did use the phrase "just as they do here" twice... as in, "husbands will enjoy intimacy with their wives just as they do here."   I've stated in previous discussions that I don't believe intimacy or the process of creating children will be "just as we do here"... but will be on a different and higher plane.  I do not see the role of women as being eternally pregnant "just as they are here" nor "fertility goddesses."  Rather, IMO I see her as a partner and equal in the process of creating...  I do not believe we have a real, or complete, understanding because D&C 101:32-34 tells me that when the Lord comes in his glory, he will reveal all things... things that we did not know... that were hidden... things of the earth, by which it was made..."  which means to me we don't really know how things were created regardless of scientific knowledge that has been gained.  There will probably be parallels of course, but to create life on earth seems to require both male and female components (except for a few obscure species)... even plants... but just what that process will be in celestial worlds IMO is unknown...

 

And for Stone Holm...  In answer to your question...

I for one esteem the Proclamation... but I read it mainly as intended for our life here in this estate... yet again we have no real information about women's post mortal role...  but here the earthly pattern has always been that the man is the main breadwinner/provider, while the woman is the heart and nurturer of the home... it's been this way since man went out to find food while the woman tended the fire... it is essentially the same today, except current economic, educational, social and political influences impact these roles today differently than in the past, many times out of necessity.  But I don't care if a woman has a Ph.D., when the kids are sick they still want Mommy... and it is the woman who provides most of the family's nurturing... and I don't see what is so wrong with that.  Why some women today feel being a nurturer is so demeaning.

Nurturing has been defined as rearing, feeding, training, educating... loving... if the family dynamics are right, the woman has equal say with her husband...

I couple this with the temple ordinances and blessings and they have nothing to do with being a "fertility goddess," whatever that means...

 

GG

Of course I said that there would be many mind blowing surprises for those who are exalted and that though similar to earth life, celestial life will be on a much higher plane, just as you so expressed. So we're largely in agreement. Until we're given definitive revelations as to just how life will be different in the highest degree of glory, it's all just speculation. By the way, one of those surprises just might be that childbearing in heaven is such a wonderful, fulfilling, no-hassel experience that there actually would be no problem being pregnant all the time (please note I say this somewhat tongue-in-cheek).

Edited January 9, 2014 by teddyaware

[Garden Girl]

I don't really know what "fertility goddess" means, it appears to me that possibly is used as a phrase to dismiss the Ancients attempt to identify with the Divine feminine and worship Heavenly Mother. But you left out the explanation of what the Proclamation is describing the role of women in the eternities.

 

That's just it, Stone h... the Proclamation really doesn't "describe" the role of women in the eternities... it declares that the divine Plan of Happiness enables family relationships to be perpetuated beyond the grave... for any real idea of my role in the eternities, I rely on sacred temple covenants and blessings to provide the most definitive answers that we have to date...

 

GG

[Stone holm]

That's just it, Stone h... the Proclamation really doesn't "describe" the role of women in the eternities... it declares that the divine Plan of Happiness enables family relationships to be perpetuated beyond the grave... for any real idea of my role in the eternities, I rely on sacred temple covenants and blessings to provide the most definitive answers that we have to date...

 

GG

So the roles stay the same, but are more glorious? I keep having that song go through my head, "What does the fox say" , except the words are, "What does the woman do?" Because if its not in the Proclamation, then what is the point of going to the mat on gender is eternal?

[Garden Girl]

So the roles stay the same, but are more glorious? I keep having that song go through my head, "What does the fox say" , except the words are, "What does the woman do?" Because if its not in the Proclamation, then what is the point of going to the mat on gender is eternal?

 

But there are certain things in the Proclamation... we are told that each of us is created in the image of God, and each is a spirit son or daughter of Heavenly Parents and as such each has a divine nature and destiny... there's a clue of our roles right there if our purpose is to become like our Heavenly Father (and Mother)... To this end, gender is essential and part of our eternal identity... I keep mentioning temple covenants and blessings... What is in the Proclamation, together with the words of temple ordinances tell me all I need to know at this point because I know that more (all) will be revealed... but for me now, this is sufficient...

 

GG

[Stone holm]

But there are certain things in the Proclamation... we are told that each of us is created in the image of God, and each is a spirit son or daughter of Heavenly Parents and as such each has a divine nature and destiny... there's a clue of our roles right there if our purpose is to become like our Heavenly Father (and Mother)... To this end, gender is essential and part of our eternal identity... I keep mentioning temple covenants and blessings... What is in the Proclamation, together with the words of temple ordinances tell me all I need to know at this point because I know that more (all) will be revealed... but for me now, this is sufficient...

 

GG

 

I understand the Divine Parents and the divine nature and destiny...and we certainly have plenty of information about Heavenly Father upon which to have some inkling of a concept of what the potential Divine Destiny is for a man.  As to the Divine Destiny for the womenfolk?  Not so much.  You use the word "Divine" as if it were loaded with information about what that destiny is, I find it fairly devoid of information and though I am not privy to the initiatories for women -- I don't see the Temple filling in very much of the blanks.  In fact, there is something of a complete dearth of women except for Eve in the whole thing, so I don't see how it flls in any information gaps at all.  So, I guess where we look for the concept of what the Eternal Pattern is for the eternal female gender is basically the Proclamation.  Can you cite any informative statement about what the role of the exalted woman is, which isn't composed primarily of platitudes?

[teddyaware]

I understand the Divine Parents and the divine nature and destiny...and we certainly have plenty of information about Heavenly Father upon which to have some inkling of a concept of what the potential Divine Destiny is for a man.  As to the Divine Destiny for the womenfolk?  Not so much.  You use the word "Divine" as if it were loaded with information about what that destiny is, I find it fairly devoid of information and though I am not privy to the initiatories for women -- I don't see the Temple filling in very much of the blanks.  In fact, there is something of a complete dearth of women except for Eve in the whole thing, so I don't see how it flls in any information gaps at all.  So, I guess where we look for the concept of what the Eternal Pattern is for the eternal female gender is basically the Proclamation.  Can you cite any informative statement about what the role of the exalted woman is, which isn't composed primarily of platitudes?

All who overcome the world and obtain the fullness of celestial glory, both male and female, will become joint heirs with Christ. Among the many divine attributes each man and woman will inherit from the Saviour in nfinite and eternal fullness are perfect faith, hope, mercy, justice , compassion, empathy, intelligence, knowledge, wisdom, power, joy, peace, happiness, love. etc...

28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. (Galatians 3)

 

Since females are human beings, children of God, and joint heirs with Christ, it's pretty easy to imagine exalted women will be very much like God, but with a feminine 'twist.' Simple. I don't know why we try so hard to deliberately obscure and mystify everything.

 

.

Edited January 9, 2014 by teddyaware

[Garden Girl]

I understand the Divine Parents and the divine nature and destiny...and we certainly have plenty of information about Heavenly Father upon which to have some inkling of a concept of what the potential Divine Destiny is for a man.  As to the Divine Destiny for the womenfolk?  Not so much.  You use the word "Divine" as if it were loaded with information about what that destiny is, I find it fairly devoid of information and though I am not privy to the initiatories for women -- I don't see the Temple filling in very much of the blanks.  In fact, there is something of a complete dearth of women except for Eve in the whole thing, so I don't see how it flls in any information gaps at all.  So, I guess where we look for the concept of what the Eternal Pattern is for the eternal female gender is basically the Proclamation.  Can you cite any informative statement about what the role of the exalted woman is, which isn't composed primarily of platitudes?

 

Hello Stone Holm...

Well, there you have it...

you keep asking the same question... I keep giving the same answer...

1) When I use the term "divine" I'm quoting the Proclamation... because we are beloved spirit sons and daughters of heavenly parents, "each has a divine nature and destiny..."  We are heirs to all that Christ has... for those who overcome the world, to sit down in his throne as he sits in the Father's (Rev 3:21).  This applies to women and to men...

2) Because we do not speak of our sacred covenants and blessings outside of the temple, I'm not able to give you precise language, but it certainly is not a platitude but a wonderful promise...

3) You keep asking for a specific "description" of an exalted women's role... no one has that specific detail... but again, the temple ordinances gives women promised blessings that will be ours if we live for them.

 

That's all I can say...

 

GG-

[Stone holm]

All who overcome the world and obtain the fullness of celestial glory, both male and female, will become joint heirs with Christ. Among the many divine attributes each man and woman will inherit from the Saviour in nfinite and eternal fullness are perfect faith, hope, mercy, justice , compassion, empathy, intelligence, knowledge, wisdom, power, joy, peace, happiness, love. etc...

28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. (Galatians 3)

 

Since females are human beings, children of God, and joint heirs with Christ, it's pretty easy to imagine exalted women will be very much like God, but with a feminine 'twist.' Simple. I don't know why we try so hard to deliberately obscure and mystify everything.

 

.

Yeah, not sure what exactly Paul was saying there as a literal reading of that would be in direct conflict with not only the Proclamation and the teachings of the Church, Paul sometimes got carried away with His own verbosity, which Peter noted caused problems from time to time.

[aspire]

"Since females are human beings, children of God, and joint heirs with Christ, it's pretty easy to imagine exalted women will be very much like God, but with a feminine 'twist.' Simple. I don't know why we try so hard to deliberately obscure and mystify everything."

What is, "much like God, but with a feminine 'twist.,"? What exactly is the 'twist'?

Now gosple according me; the word god is a title only. God the Father can not be God without God the Mother. The Two are One under the title of God. Therefore all creation is under Their control. Speculation? You bet. But this is what I hope my exaltation as a woman will be with my husband, a Creator not just a baby factory.