Adoption Pressure

[pogi]

 

There is enough help available to anybody for any reason, and every person is capable of loving someone else if they want to.

 

BIG IF don't you think?  You don't know very many addicts do you?

[Ahab]

I agree, and I have had experience in my own family of a baby being given up for adoption and it was the best thing that could happen. He is grown up now and has a baby of his own and was blessed to have a father in the home which he would otherwise not have had. It was an open adoption so the natural mother can keep track of him and his family on FB.

 

Ahab seems to have a "I would never...." attitude. If you have never been in that situation I wouldn't be too hasty in judging.

Nobody should ever want to get rid of their own child, or to not want to know who their real parents are.

 

Why is this even being debated?  Would you seriously ever encourage any woman to give up her own child as if it's a good thing to do?  Why not rather help that woman to be the best kind of mother, and woman, she can be?  Why not encourage that, instead?

[Ahab]

BIG IF don't you think?  You don't know very many addicts do you?

So you want me to picture you talking to an addict and saying something like:  You should really give up your child.

 

Sorry,. but I'd rather picture you saying:  You should really give up that addiction, and I will help you as much as I can.  And not only will I help you, but I'll help to get you together with some other people who can help you, as well.  We can kick this, together.

 

 

Anyone encouraging anyone else to give up their child is just giving bad advice, with no way around it.  Why not give good counsel, instead?

[pogi]

Children are often wrong, too.  

 

Children are often right too.  Maybe you should listen to them sometimes, you might learn something about love.  To assume that a child is unable to discern who loves them better is blind madness.  How dare you presume to know better than the birth mother, adoptive parents and child.

[Calm]

Yes.   Each person should know who their own parents are and as much about their own parents as they can possibly learn.

 

We've all done things we're not particularly proud of, and some of us have had other people do some things to us that we're not proud of either, but we should never want to get rid of a child of our own, for any reason, regardless of who the other parent is or what they have done.

Before a certain age, children need security and stability in their lives, they don't need to worry if Mom and Dad love each other or if they really love him or just kept him because it was the right thing to do.

 

Telling a kid the truth on principle before they are emotionally able to handle it will result in traumatized kids afraid to let their parents out of their sight and other dysfunctional behaviours.

 

Adoption is not always about wanting to get rid of a child.  And pretending that someone can force themselves to want a child when they don't won't make the child's life better.

[Calm]

Nobody should ever want to get rid of their own child, or to not want to know who their real parents are.

 

Why is this even being debated?  Would you seriously ever encourage any woman to give up her own child as if it's a good thing to do?  Why not rather help that woman to be the best kind of mother, and woman, she can be?  Why not encourage that, instead?

Because sometimes that will not be enough for the child's needs.  Nonparents, even if ideally placed (which is not often the fact) can never fill every need that a parent is for a child.  A loving set of grandparents or neighbours can't fill the need created by a mother and father who are so immature they end up playing video games rather than changing a child's diapers.

Edited December 26, 2013 by calmoriah

[Deborah]

Nobody should ever want to get rid of their own child, or to not want to know who their real parents are.

 

Because a mother gives up a child doesn't mean she wants to. But it is truly an Abrahamic sacrifice to put the needs of the child above her own interests. I strongly believe in open adoptions where the birth mother can get updates and photos and the child can know he was given up out of love so that he could have a better life than she could offer. But even that is not advisable in some cases. I truly hope you never have to face this situation with someone you love because it is heart-wrenching decision but sometimes it is the best option for all concerned.

[David T]

Yes.   Each person should know who their own parents are and as much about their own parents as they can possibly learn.

 

We've all done things we're not particularly proud of, and some of us have had other people do some things to us that we're not proud of either, but we should never want to get rid of a child of our own, for any reason, regardless of who the other parent is or what they have done.

Ahab, I think your perspective begins with a wrong assumption here. You view adoption as a means to fulfill a wish to "get rid of a child". For those with such a mindset, abortion is usually the option of choice.  Those participating in the adoption process are generally those looking to best benefit the child - many wish they were in a position to raise the child, but recognize it is in the child's best interests to go another route.

 

Generally characterizing birth mothers placing a child for adoption as people who "want to get rid of a child" is a gross mistake.

[Ahab]

And that is wrong. There have been many successful adoptions with happy children who are loved and love their adoptive parents.

It still wasn't a good thing for their parents to do.  You're talking about using lemons to make lemonade.  All parents should keep their children and love them as good parents do.   Sheesh.

 

Anyway, I think I've made my point clear enough.  Argue on if you really want to with someone else.

[Calm]

So you want me to picture you talking to an addict and saying something like:  You should really give up your child.

 

Sorry,. but I'd rather picture you saying:  You should really give up that addiction, and I will help you as much as I can.  And not only will I help you, but I'll help to get you together with some other people who can help you, as well.  We can kick this, together.

And the child can just suffer from the neglect of the parent while the parent goes through the process of cleaning up....if they manage to do so eventually.

[Deborah]

 All parents should keep their children and love them as good parents do.   Sheesh.

 

Anyway, I think I've made my point clear enough.  Argue on if you really want to with someone else.

 

Of course that would be the ideal. But not everyone is capable of that. I don't think anyone else would make the arguments you are making which show a very limited experience with reality.

[David T]

Children are often wrong, too.  What we need more of is people willing to do the right thing and other people helping them do it.

 

Which is why, even before my wife was incapable of having additional children, I had a strong desire to be an adoptive parent some day. Having individuals who have the means, the desire, and the willingness to adopt a child in need is a form of doing the right thing, and helping individuals do that. When we put together our adoption profile as prospective adoptive parents, we are doing the best we can to show the birth mother that there are people out there who desire to help her and her child out, and to love them, and to give them the support and atmosphere that they need.

 

Adopting a child  isn't financially or emotionally cheap.

 

I think it's highly unfortunate that you think so poorly of the adoptive process, and make such mean-spirited judgments on birth parents who made such a difficult choice.

[Calm]

 

 

There is enough help available to anybody for any reason, and every person is capable of loving someone else if they want to.

Have you spent much time in homes on welfare where they are struggling to get help from government or other family members?  Where they wonder if they will be kicked out of their homes because they got a job to be more independent and now where they are making 300 dollars a month more, their rent is now 1000 dollars more a month?  Or wondering if they will be able to get the government to approve giving their child the drug that works for them instead of a cheaper version that leaves him hardly functional in school?

 

Have you ever known a sociopath?  A schizophrenic? An addict?  Anyone of the mental age of a child with an adult body?  Anyone with severe, chronic depression that does not respond to drugs well?

Edited December 26, 2013 by calmoriah

[pogi]

 All parents should keep their children and love them as good parents do.   Sheesh.

 

Yes, and we should all live in a Zion society as well. 

Edited December 26, 2013 by pogi

[Ahab]

Which is why, even before my wife was incapable of having additional children, I had a strong desire to be an adoptive parent some day. Having individuals who have the means, the desire, and the willingness to adopt a child in need is a form of doing the right thing, and helping individuals do that. When we put together our adoption profile as prospective adoptive parents, we are doing the best we can to show the birth mother that there are people out there who desire to help her and her child out, and to love them, and to give them the support and atmosphere that they need.

 

Adopting a child  isn't financially or emotionally cheap.

 

I think it's highly unfortunate that you think so poorly of the adoptive process, and make such mean-spirited judgments on birth parents who made such a difficult choice.

David,

Why don't you just help the mother of that child to have the support she needs to raise that child?  Why does the child have to be "yours", by adoption, before you will help out?  Why not adopt the mother, in a sense, to help her, figuring that apprarently she doesn't have parents to help her to raise her child, with you and your wife helping to fill the role as her parents with her child as your grandchild, in a sense.

 

Part of the problem is that people who adopt children think they are doing the mother a favor by taking her child from her.

 

If you want to help to raise more children, there are ways for you to do that without taking children from their mothers, and you can help the mother while you are at it.

 

Think people, think.  Apparently you don't really know the evil you are helping to perpetuate.

[Ahab]

Yes, and we should all live in a Zion society as well. 

I don't think it's too much to ask that we encourage parents to love their own children.  Most of them do, even though there are a lot who don't have a lot of money or worldy status to measure up in the eyes of the world.

[Calm]

David,

Why don't you just help the mother of that child to have the support she needs to raise that child? 

If one does not have legal guardianship of either mother or child, one cannot force a parent to accept help no matter how much one wants to help.

 

Been there, tried that.  Parent walked out and removed children from any influence people wanting to help could give.

[David T]

I don't think it's too much to ask that we encourage parents to love their own children.  Most of them do, even though there are a lot who don't have a lot of money or worldy status to measure up in the eyes of the world.

 

Ahab, did you ever watch any of those videos of the birth mothers I linked to before? Do so, and tell me that those parents do not love the children they placed for adoption. Tell me they were wicked, and just seeking to "get rid of a baby". I truly think you are lacking an essential perspective on this. You appear even unwilling to consider it. You didn't even answer my question as to what causes you to make this assertion that giving up a child for adoption is always wicked, and never the best for the child - especially in the face of so much experience and evidence that counters this assertion. You just claim it. There are many here with actual experience expressing that your assertion is not true, and you simply negate it without any explanation.

 

Why do you believe what you believe?

[Calm]

There are parents who through brain damage (sometimes their own fault, sometimes no fault of their own) or never having the mental or emotional capacity to begin with are not capable of being functioning parents.  Some would treat their children like dolls or not even be able to change a diaper or feed an infant.

 

The idea that it would be better to care for such children by caring for their parents at the same time while leaving the children in the care of the parent as the primary caregiver....it just doesn't work.  Just because someone is capable of getting pregnant doesn't mean they can be a capable parent.

 

A comatose patient can get pregnant, should we leave the baby in her care as long as we encourage her to love the baby as much as possible and are there to help when needed or would it be better to remove the child and give the baby to parents who could actually hold and love it and feed it and clothe it and educate it?

[pogi]

Think people, think.  Apparently you don't really know the evil you are helping to perpetuate.

 

As a future adoptive parent, this is completely offensive to accuse me of "perpetuating evil" by adopting a child to raise and love as my own!  If adoption is evil, sealing a child to it's adoptive parents must be the epitome of darkness!!  You are throwing your own church under the bus because of its part in adoption through LDS family services and sealing to adoptive parents.  Perhaps it is you who should sit down and do some thinking. 

[Calm]

Pogi, you must know that everyone else in this thread is applauding your decision, so please don't waste a moment of concern over someone who has either not thought this through or is applying such narrow requirements to justify his position that it only applies in very, very limited cases.

[David T]

Pogi, you must know that everyone else in this thread is applauding your decision, so please don't waste a moment of concern over someone who has either not thought this through or is applying such narrow requirements to justify his position that it only applies in very, very limited cases.

I think pogi and myself (correct me if I'm wrong) are both more concerned that individuals such as Ahab (or those silent who may ve following along and agreeing) have such a twisted view, that we feel it's important to present why our experiences show that it is incredibly wrong, and misguided. We are not as much defending our positions as feeling terrible and trying to correct the foundations that lead to someone improperly thinking so poorly of those birth mothers that we have come to admire and respect.

Edited December 26, 2013 by David T

[pogi]

Pogi, you must know that everyone else in this thread is applauding your decision

 

Thanks cal

Edited December 26, 2013 by pogi

[Calm]

David, totally agree that such must be challenged when it's come across in hopes first of changing someone's mind or at least making them think twice before confronting someone going through such an experience.

It would be nice to be able to believe that not only is love enough, that there is help there for people who need it...they just need to ask, but that everyone is capable of love if they want to enough.

I unfortunately know someone who wants to love more than anything and to be loved as well...unfortunately the first isn't possible for him/her (though s/he can be a good person in many, many ways) and the second s/he can't recognise so while loved by many, that need is never satisfied. Had great parents as far as I can tell too and a great upbringing too, and all the help in the world practically to make it work....just something in the brain prevents anything more than what appears to be a superficial understanding of what love is. Had children who are young adults now...some appear to be resilient enough to get past it inspite of huge issues of self esteem and doubts about whether they are worthy of being loved, others are going through life apparently pushing people to see if they love them, but unfortunately they keep pushing until they can't handle it anymore so they have to back off...which proves to those children they were never loved....and on to the next self destructive behaviours.

It is not just religious behaviours that have consequences for the generations that follow. Sometimes the cycle can only be broken by saying I must sacrifice my desire to allow for the happiness and joy of my child by giving another the responsibility I cannot now fulfill.

Edited December 26, 2013 by calmoriah

[bluebell]

 

 

Think people, think.  Apparently you don't really know the evil you are helping to perpetuate.

 

This idea is delusional.

 

Adoption is not evil.  It many cases it is the will of God.  You have no idea of what you speak.