What Proof Is There Of An Afterlife?

[VideoGameJunkie]

Just wondering what the proof is of an afterlife. This is one of the reasons my dad won't join the church because he said nobody has ever come back and he doesn't believe in an afterlife. He thinks our souls end when we die.

[pogi]

Do you mean evidence?  There is no proof. 

[Ahab]

Just wondering what the proof is of an afterlife. This is one of the reasons my dad won't join the church because he said nobody has ever come back and he doesn't believe in an afterlife. He thinks our souls end when we die.

Jesus came back resurrected after he died.  Some people won't believe until they see they're still alive after they die, though.

 

If I were you I'd just tell your Dad that he'll get all of the proof he needs when he dies and sees that he's still living, but somewhere else.  Hopefully it will be in a good place and he won't regret not doing more to get ready for it while he was here.

Edited December 2, 2013 by Ahab

[Glenn101]

Do you mean evidence?  There is no proof. 

+1 There is some evidence, but not enough for anyone to raise their hackles over. If we had proof, there would be no need for faith.

 

Glenn

[strappinglad]

There once was a delusional man who went to the doctor and claimed he was dead. The doctor, trying to prove him wrong asked " Do dead men bleed? " The man answered, " No, dead men do not bleed!" . The doctor then pricked the man with a needle and showed him the blood oozing out. The man then exclaimed, " Well, I'll be darned, Dead men do bleed"

Even with very strong evidence, some will arrive at the incorrect conclusion.

[VideoGameJunkie]

Jesus came back resurrected after he died.  Some people won't believe until they see they're still alive after they die, though.

 

If I were you I'd just tell your Dad that he'll get all of the proof he needs when he dies and sees that he's still living, but somewhere else.  Hopefully it will be in a good place and he won't regret not doing more to get ready for it while he was here.

Ya, apparently with him he won't believe until he's in heaven.

[altersteve]

There is none.

[AndyDnom]

proof? none.

 

In fact, if there is an afterlife than either its not possible to communicate from it, or everyone there is just very selfish. Because there is no evidence that anyone has ever tried to come back from the other side and communicate with us stuck here on earth.

 

I have yet to see any evidence about Near Death Experiences that can't be explained by the peoples pre existing ideas going through their brain. Basically a really realistic dream, which makes sense when considering what state someone is in if they are near death.

[Ahab]

There is none.

The people living what we sometimes refer to as the "afterlife" would disagree with you about that.

 

The fact that you can't see something right now doesn't mean there is no proof for it.  Wait and see, and you'll be proof of that fact.

[altersteve]

The people living what we sometimes refer to as the "afterlife" would disagree with you about that.

 

The fact that you can't see something right now doesn't mean there is no proof for it.  Wait and see, and you'll be proof of that fact.

Yeah, I know. I think you know what I meant.

[Ahab]

Yeah, I know. I think you know what I meant.

I understood you to be saying there is no proof of an afterlife.  You said  "there is none" in response to a question asking what the proof is.  To my mind that means you don't believe there is any evidence of an afterlife.

 

I'm not sure if you know what I meant when I said Jesus Christ resurrected is proof of an afterlife.  To me that means there is proof.

[VideoGameJunkie]

I understood you to be saying there is no proof of an afterlife.  You said  "there is none" in response to a question asking what the proof is.  To my mind that means you don't believe there is any evidence of an afterlife.

 

I'm not sure if you know what I meant when I said Jesus Christ resurrected is proof of an afterlife.  To me that means there is proof.

Well I agree there has been Bible proof and witnesses from books, but modern day, we haven't seen anyone come back and none of us have seen heaven with our own eyes. But there have been people who had near death experiences. I wonder if what they saw is true. I hope it is. I want there to be a heaven so badly and I want my dad to believe there is.

[Ahab]

Well I agree there has been Bible proof and witnesses from books, but modern day, we haven't seen anyone come back and none of us have seen heaven with our own eyes. But there have been people who had near death experiences. I wonder if what they saw is true. I hope it is. I want there to be a heaven so badly and I want my dad to believe there is.

Heaven is just another "where" to be.  What's more important is what we will be, wherever we are, after we die.

 

The idea that I will be able to become like our Father in heaven is what matters the most to me.  Of course, I do hope I'll end up in a nice place, but if not, as Joseph Smith said, I'll make wherever I am into a heaven as long as I have people helping me who also want to be what I want to be.

[strappinglad]

There are some NDEs that have occurred under full medical monitoring, ie. heart rate, EEG etc. These are cases of not a near death experience, but a true medically established death. No heart beat , no brain function etc. They have lasted up to 20 minutes in that state. In other words, the patient was warm and dead. These cases are of folks who revived by themselves with no medical intervention. They report their experiences. To say that no one has ever come back from the dead is false.

[Tacenda]

http://www.tlc.com/tv-shows/long-island-medium

 

This lady, Theresa Caputo, seems pretty credible, though my husband would disagree.  She's believable to me after watching several shows.  My niece has came out that she has some of these abilities, with a convincing story to go along with it. 

 

I really struggle with knowing for sure that there is an afterlife ever since a faith crisis.  I really like the prospect that the Lord provided Mediums for those on the other side to communicate with us!    

 

And of course, there is the First Vision story and NDE's.

 

BTW, VGJ, I really hope to see my parents again.  My mother had Alzheimer's for many years, she got it at a young age.  So I feel like I missed out on a good chunk of her life, with her knowing who I was.  So I'm anxious to see them!    

[VideoGameJunkie]

http://www.tlc.com/tv-shows/long-island-medium

 

This lady, Theresa Caputo, seems pretty credible, though my husband would disagree.  She's believable to me after watching several shows.  My niece has came out that she has some of these abilities, with a convincing story to go along with it. 

 

I really struggle with knowing for sure that there is an afterlife ever since a faith crisis.  I really like the prospect that the Lord provided Mediums for those on the other side to communicate with us!    

 

And of course, there is the First Vision story and NDE's.

 

BTW, VGJ, I really hope to see my parents again.  My mother had Alzheimer's for many years, she got it at a young age.  So I feel like I missed out on a good chunk of her life, with her knowing who I was.  So I'm anxious to see them!    

I hope you see them again too! I definitely hope I can see my relatives again too.

[mfbukowski]

Just wondering what the proof is of an afterlife. This is one of the reasons my dad won't join the church because he said nobody has ever come back and he doesn't believe in an afterlife. He thinks our souls end when we die.

Well then it seems he does believe in a "soul". Why would he believe that?

Tell him there is as much proof for the afterlife as there is that we should treat others as we want to be treated, or that we have inalienable God-given rights, or that all people should be treated equally before the law, or for that matter that he was right to not kill his family while you were children.

We believe all kinds of things we can't prove.

[Kevin Christensen]

Just wondering what the proof is of an afterlife. This is one of the reasons my dad won't join the church because he said nobody has ever come back and he doesn't believe in an afterlife. He thinks our souls end when we die.

It's important to shift away from the notion of coercive proof to a consideration of what Alma 32 calls "cause to believe." 

 

http://publications.maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/fullscreen/?pub=1382&index=2

 

At the IANDS conference in Salt Lake City, I heard a Jewish girl talk about her experience.  She'd been taught that there is no life after, that one should be ethical to be a good person.  When she found herself dead, she said her first thought was "I HATE being wrong."

 

FWIW

 

Kevin Christensen

Bethel Park, PA

[Stargater]

Just wondering what the proof is of an afterlife. This is one of the reasons my dad won't join the church because he said nobody has ever come back and he doesn't believe in an afterlife. He thinks our souls end when we die.

 

Hi, everyone.

 

This is a fascinating question, but what would your dad  accept as evidence? And will he accept evidence or does he want incontrovertible proof? I think everyone would want proof, but part of our religion rests on not getting proof until we have mastered faith. Our authorities have always maintained that the promise of Jesus in the Doctrine & Covenants is literal and can be attained in this life: "Verily, thus saith the Lord: It shall come to pass that every soul who forsaketh his sins and cometh unto me, and calleth on my name, and obeyeth my voice, and keepeth my commandments, shall see my face and know that I am." John 14:23 quotes Jesus as saying: "Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words; and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him."

 

Specifically, Joseph Smith wrote: "And this means that the coming of the Father and the Son to a person is a reality -- a personal appearance -- and not merely dwelling in his heart." (D&C 130:3.) The prerequisite is, of course, that man follows a path of righteousness and faith before a sure knowledge is given to him.

 

The Law states that in the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established. In each case where keys of authority were conferred in this dispensation, or that the Book of Mormon was delivered by an angel, there has been at least two witnesses. This includes the restoration of the priesthood, the appearance of Elijah and Moses, and even the fantastic vision of what happens to man after death (D&C 76). Anciently, the apostles stood as witnesses of Jesus' resurrection and Peter, James and John were all present with Jesus on the mount of transfiguration. Finally, Jesus used the testimony of the Father and the Holy Spirit as witnesses of his divine mission.

 

Even in the days of Moses, seventy elders of Israel and Aaron and Joshua all saw God. When people like Muhammad, Joan of Arc, Ellen G. White and other self-proclaimed messengers of God come along and none of them has witnesses, then it's their word only.

 

Elane Durham, a Catholic woman who died and said she had a life-after-life experience, wrote an account of what she saw and did. In her book, I Stand All Amazed, she included all the documentation from the hospital and a Catholic priest who witnessed her death. She didn't understand much of what she saw, and years later met with some LDS elders. As she learned more about the gospel, she recognized that much of the unconventional things she was learning from the elders were things she saw and heard in the spirit world.

[Garden Girl]

Hello VGJ...

 

I agree with everyone that there is not formal scientific proof... however, one of my favorite books that I've mentioned several times on this board, and highly recommend, is by Brent and Wendy Top, professors at BYU... titled: "Beyond Death's Door." 

This book reports the extensive studies they did of Near Death Experiences of Non-LDS individuals to see if there were similarities between our theology and what the individuals reported as experiencing.  There were many similarities... but what I liked most was how certain aspects were almost universal... for instance... the "heavenly music." 

Almost without exception the individuals described a type of music that was not "notes" but sounds that they had great difficulty describing except to say that it was unlike anything they had ever heard and soooo beautiful... and that it seemed like an "energy"... From Page 130: "And I could hear beautiful music; I can't tell you what kind because I never heard anything like it before... I could describe it as a combination of vibrations, many vibrations..."

And, "There were no sounds of any earthly thing.  Only the sounds of serenity, of a strange music like I had never heard.  A soothing symphony of indescribable beauty blended with the light I was approaching."

And, "There was tremendous sound, too.  It was as if all the great orchestras in the world were playing at once; no special melody, and very loud, powerful but somehow soothing.  It was a rushing, moving sound, unlike anything I could remember, but familiar, just on the edge of my memory."

 

The same with the "colors."  As an artist this interested me because, again, many of the individuals described the vibrancy of the colors, many of which they had never seen before and couldn't name... everything was just so vibrant and alive, but not garish in any way... just beautiful... and how the "atmosphere" was so clear... From Page 123: "The unequalled vegetation, landscape, and buildings of the spirit world are the most commonly described features.  One frequently described element of these is the striking color.  This is color that surpasses all earthly imagination and mortal description."

"At first I became aware of beautiful colors which were all the colors of the rainbow... As my senses expanded I became aware of colors that were far beyond the spectrum of the rainbow known to the human eye."

And, "Not at all like the colors you see here... the colors [on earth] are drab by comparison..."

And, "I particularly noticed the colors... the sky was a brilliant blue but the colors were so soft.  The green of the trees, too, was brilliant but not harsh." 

And, "I was in a garden.  All the colors were intense.  The grass was a deep vibrant green, flowers were radiant reds, yellows and blues, and birds of all beauty fluttered in the bushes.  Everything was lit by a shadowless brilliance that was all pervading."

 

VGJ... these are all separate accounts by the individuals studied. There is much more, including interactions with heavenly beings and messengers. 

This book was published in 1993 when Bro Top was Assoc Dean of Religious Educ at BYU,

Anyway, from the many reports of the individuals studied, IMO this goes well beyond a "common dream" or physical experience as one approaches death...  or whatever is used to try and discredit these observations by NDE-ers. 

 

GG

 

 

 

[changed]

Before trying to understand death, I think it's good to understand life and what life is.  a close examination of life - of our self-awareness, our free will, our ability to create, and love, and think are evidence of our spirit.  Once you see life for what it really is - more than the mechanical functions of our body - then understanding death becomes simpler. 

[VideoGameJunkie]

Hi, everyone.

 

This is a fascinating question, but what would your dad  accept as evidence? And will he accept evidence or does he want incontrovertible proof? I think everyone would want proof, but part of our religion rests on not getting proof until we have mastered faith. Our authorities have always maintained that the promise of Jesus in the Doctrine & Covenants is literal and can be attained in this life: "Verily, thus saith the Lord: It shall come to pass that every soul who forsaketh his sins and cometh unto me, and calleth on my name, and obeyeth my voice, and keepeth my commandments, shall see my face and know that I am." John 14:23 quotes Jesus as saying: "Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words; and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him."

 

Specifically, Joseph Smith wrote: "And this means that the coming of the Father and the Son to a person is a reality -- a personal appearance -- and not merely dwelling in his heart." (D&C 130:3.) The prerequisite is, of course, that man follows a path of righteousness and faith before a sure knowledge is given to him.

 

The Law states that in the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established. In each case where keys of authority were conferred in this dispensation, or that the Book of Mormon was delivered by an angel, there has been at least two witnesses. This includes the restoration of the priesthood, the appearance of Elijah and Moses, and even the fantastic vision of what happens to man after death (D&C 76). Anciently, the apostles stood as witnesses of Jesus' resurrection and Peter, James and John were all present with Jesus on the mount of transfiguration. Finally, Jesus used the testimony of the Father and the Holy Spirit as witnesses of his divine mission.

 

Even in the days of Moses, seventy elders of Israel and Aaron and Joshua all saw God. When people like Muhammad, Joan of Arc, Ellen G. White and other self-proclaimed messengers of God come along and none of them has witnesses, then it's their word only.

 

Elane Durham, a Catholic woman who died and said she had a life-after-life experience, wrote an account of what she saw and did. In her book, I Stand All Amazed, she included all the documentation from the hospital and a Catholic priest who witnessed her death. She didn't understand much of what she saw, and years later met with some LDS elders. As she learned more about the gospel, she recognized that much of the unconventional things she was learning from the elders were things she saw and heard in the spirit world.

Great post and good info. I will try to get him to read accounts of people who have died in a hospital and came back.

[VideoGameJunkie]

Hello VGJ...

 

I agree with everyone that there is not formal scientific proof... however, one of my favorite books that I've mentioned several times on this board, and highly recommend, is by Brent and Wendy Top, professors at BYU... titled: "Beyond Death's Door." 

This book reports the extensive studies they did of Near Death Experiences of Non-LDS individuals to see if there were similarities between our theology and what the individuals reported as experiencing.  There were many similarities... but what I liked most was how certain aspects were almost universal... for instance... the "heavenly music." 

Almost without exception the individuals described a type of music that was not "notes" but sounds that they had great difficulty describing except to say that it was unlike anything they had ever heard and soooo beautiful... and that it seemed like an "energy"... From Page 130: "And I could hear beautiful music; I can't tell you what kind because I never heard anything like it before... I could describe it as a combination of vibrations, many vibrations..."

And, "There were no sounds of any earthly thing.  Only the sounds of serenity, of a strange music like I had never heard.  A soothing symphony of indescribable beauty blended with the light I was approaching."

And, "There was tremendous sound, too.  It was as if all the great orchestras in the world were playing at once; no special melody, and very loud, powerful but somehow soothing.  It was a rushing, moving sound, unlike anything I could remember, but familiar, just on the edge of my memory."

 

The same with the "colors."  As an artist this interested me because, again, many of the individuals described the vibrancy of the colors, many of which they had never seen before and couldn't name... everything was just so vibrant and alive, but not garish in any way... just beautiful... and how the "atmosphere" was so clear... From Page 123: "The unequalled vegetation, landscape, and buildings of the spirit world are the most commonly described features.  One frequently described element of these is the striking color.  This is color that surpasses all earthly imagination and mortal description."

"At first I became aware of beautiful colors which were all the colors of the rainbow... As my senses expanded I became aware of colors that were far beyond the spectrum of the rainbow known to the human eye."

And, "Not at all like the colors you see here... the colors [on earth] are drab by comparison..."

And, "I particularly noticed the colors... the sky was a brilliant blue but the colors were so soft.  The green of the trees, too, was brilliant but not harsh." 

And, "I was in a garden.  All the colors were intense.  The grass was a deep vibrant green, flowers were radiant reds, yellows and blues, and birds of all beauty fluttered in the bushes.  Everything was lit by a shadowless brilliance that was all pervading."

 

VGJ... these are all separate accounts by the individuals studied. There is much more, including interactions with heavenly beings and messengers. 

This book was published in 1993 when Bro Top was Assoc Dean of Religious Educ at BYU,

Anyway, from the many reports of the individuals studied, IMO this goes well beyond a "common dream" or physical experience as one approaches death...  or whatever is used to try and discredit these observations by NDE-ers. 

 

GG

Thank you for that. I loved the descriptions as I tried to visualize and think to myself what was being said in the verses you spoke of.

[VideoGameJunkie]

I love everything that's been said. People who doubt would try to say that what people say was just their brain in that state playing tricks on them like a hallucination.

[theanthrofox]

I have left my body before and went to a place that I would call 'the spirit world'. I certainly wasn't dead but I was disjointed between layers or planes of....something?

 

I'm of the belief that we're still in this place, but we have forgotten how to be aware of it.

 

the main issue I find in articulating my view based on a couple of experiences i have had, including the ones when i became detached from my body and entered a different plane, is that words do not describe what I experienced 'there'. words are completely inadequate. almost impossible to articulate what went on.... it was like going to a world where there were no dimensions of space or time.

 

But just because I had some experience that I interpret as my soul going to the spirit world, it does not mean I believe in the existence of an after life.

 

Furthermore, in the mormon context at least, is the soul eternal? If so, what do people say about pre-birth life? Did experience happen then? did we forget it when we were born? Then if there is another existence, what if we forget again? i dunno...

 

Lastly, It should not matter if there is an after-life. this moment right now and the chance to exist is the gift.