Calm Posted December 3, 2013 Posted December 3, 2013 http://www.lds.org/manual/gospel-principles?lang=engRead the first four chapters for LDS view of the Preexistence if interested.
VideoGameJunkie Posted December 3, 2013 Author Posted December 3, 2013 I have left my body before and went to a place that I would call 'the spirit world'. I certainly wasn't dead but I was disjointed between layers or planes of....something? I'm of the belief that we're still in this place, but we have forgotten how to be aware of it. the main issue I find in articulating my view based on a couple of experiences i have had, including the ones when i became detached from my body and entered a different plane, is that words do not describe what I experienced 'there'. words are completely inadequate. almost impossible to articulate what went on.... it was like going to a world where there were no dimensions of space or time. But just because I had some experience that I interpret as my soul going to the spirit world, it does not mean I believe in the existence of an after life. Furthermore, in the mormon context at least, is the soul eternal? If so, what do people say about pre-birth life? Did experience happen then? did we forget it when we were born? Then if there is another existence, what if we forget again? i dunno... Lastly, It should not matter if there is an after-life. this moment right now and the chance to exist is the gift.Are you sure you weren't hallucinating? I thought I experienced the afterlife during a hallucination I had because of a bad medication mix.
strappinglad Posted December 3, 2013 Posted December 3, 2013 We should remember that knowledge of an afterlife does not ,of necessity, make one become righteous. Satan and his followers know and they work to fill their 'kingdom' . Laman and Lemuel saw an angel , but they preferred to follow their own way. The demons within Legion recognized Christ and wanted nothing to do with Him. It is true that most NDE ers seem to have made a profound change in their outlook in life. They are more compassionate and forgiving. Visions of heaven and/or hell can be quite a wake up call I guess.
theanthrofox Posted December 3, 2013 Posted December 3, 2013 Are you sure you weren't hallucinating? I thought I experienced the afterlife during a hallucination I had because of a bad medication mix. sure it could've been!
theanthrofox Posted December 3, 2013 Posted December 3, 2013 i am familiar with the experiences that people have from taking 'things'. but the experience i am talknig about happened when i was sober, It was weird..i felt disjointed from my body, as though a part of me was still in my body but another part went somewhere completely different. My mum and a room full of 50 or so people watched it all happen, and i was screaming and had the appearance that i was being possessed.... the experience i had was horrible...because i felt like some sort of 'dark force' was trying to possess me, and i was fighting it. and this experience (it actually happened more than once) changed me so much. went i am meditating/praying i sometimes get a 'glimpse' of that place. and it scares me.
Coreyb Posted December 3, 2013 Posted December 3, 2013 I have known many people who have died, experienced something and returned to life, including my Father and Grandmother. They had no reason to fabricate or be dishonest with me about their experience, and they are perfectly normal, intelligent people, so i believe them.
thesometimesaint Posted December 3, 2013 Posted December 3, 2013 Life after death is religious concept, not a scientific one.
pmccombs1 Posted December 3, 2013 Posted December 3, 2013 I'm not sure if you know what I meant when I said Jesus Christ resurrected is proof of an afterlife. To me that means there is proof. Technically, that is an illogical argument. The logical consequence, or entailment, would be expressed thus: "If the anecdote of Jesus' resurrection is true, then there is proof of an afterlife." That would be a valid logical argument, because it presents an antecedent which, if true, validates the consequent. However, I should point out that the evidence* for your antecedent is of the same quality as the evidence for an afterlife: subjective and anecdotal. That renders your point moot. *By "evidence" I mean that class of discrete things that can be measured and reported in deterministic language by a non-spiritual machine.
pmccombs1 Posted December 3, 2013 Posted December 3, 2013 Great post and good info. I will try to get him to read accounts of people who have died in a hospital and came back. And the intent of this is to get him to join the LDS church? What if Fr. Maniyangat's NDE reveals the true church? He witnessed the seven levels of hell and spoke with the souls in purgatory who suggested that it was through the intercessory prayers of the faithful that they would be allowed to partake of salvation. He also saw many bishops and priests and numerous saints, especially St. Joseph and the Blessed Mother. He spoke with these, and he received instruction regarding his Catholic ministry directly from Jesus himself. Other NDEs suggest that no particular church is "the" true church, and some, like Betty Eadie's, have put Jesus in the position of specifically stating that "no one church can fulfill everybody’s needs at every level." There are even ex-mormons active in their community that claim an NDE led them out of the LDS church. So, pick your NDEs wisely.
boblloyd91 Posted December 3, 2013 Posted December 3, 2013 There are even ex-mormons active in their community that claim an NDE led them out of the LDS church. So, pick your NDEs wisely. Out of curiosity what other ones are you aware of? The only one I know of is one that was shown on the 700 club way back in the eighties by a woman who claimed she went to hell for being Mormon, and then Jesus saved her. It was a woman named Kay Lynn Trimble, and the video can be found on youtube.
boblloyd91 Posted December 3, 2013 Posted December 3, 2013 And the intent of this is to get him to join the LDS church? What if Fr. Maniyangat's NDE reveals the true church? He witnessed the seven levels of hell and spoke with the souls in purgatory who suggested that it was through the intercessory prayers of the faithful that they would be allowed to partake of salvation. He also saw many bishops and priests and numerous saints, especially St. Joseph and the Blessed Mother. He spoke with these, and he received instruction regarding his Catholic ministry directly from Jesus himself. Other NDEs suggest that no particular church is "the" true church, and some, like Betty Eadie's, have put Jesus in the position of specifically stating that "no one church can fulfill everybody’s needs at every level." There are even ex-mormons active in their community that claim an NDE led them out of the LDS church. So, pick your NDEs wisely.
boblloyd91 Posted December 3, 2013 Posted December 3, 2013 (edited) There are even ex-mormons active in their community that claim an NDE led them out of the LDS church. So, pick your NDEs wisely.Out of curiosity what other ones are you aware of? The only one I know of is one that was shown on the 700 club way back in the eighties by a woman who claimed she went to hell for being Mormon, and then Jesus saved her. It was a woman named Kay Lynn Trimble, and the video can be found on youtube. Edited December 3, 2013 by boblloyd91
thesometimesaint Posted December 3, 2013 Posted December 3, 2013 Out of curiosity what other ones are you aware of? The only one I know of is one that was shown on the 700 club way back in the eighties by a woman who claimed she went to hell for being Mormon, and then Jesus saved her. It was a woman named Kay Lynn Trimble, and the video can be found on youtube. If I am going to damned to Hell for being a Mormon, at least I'll be among friends.
pmccombs1 Posted December 3, 2013 Posted December 3, 2013 Out of curiosity what other ones are you aware of? The only one I know of is one that was shown on the 700 club way back in the eighties by a woman who claimed she went to hell for being Mormon, and then Jesus saved her. It was a woman named Kay Lynn Trimble, and the video can be found on youtube. Sister Trimble can probably rest easy, since Nanci Denison was shown in her NDE that Jesus is actually an invention of human religion and he did not really exist. One NDEr goes under the handle "AquaLeo" on the exmormon forum. He claimed in 2011 that his NDE pushed him away from religion and that his experience of the afterlife was nothing like what he received in his former LDS faith. Others in that forum have related NDEs in which they did not encounter visions or meet characters from their former LDS narrative. There isn't a very good sample of exmormon NDEs online, but so far it looks like their general characteristic is emptiness. NDEs generally have very similar characteristics within cultural groups. Western NDEs often have the tunnel, the angels, music, Jesus, and other imagery familiar to Christianity. We like to cherry-pick the mormon-like bits from NDEs and kind of ignore their un-mormon aspects. For instance, Betty Eadie's NDE is quite mormonesque, only no prescription to follow LDS atonement doctrines and no single true church. If you look at Hindu NDEs, they are all very similar to each other. Hindus are generally fetched by messengers and end up in the presence of a portly record-keeper who realizes that a mistake has been made. The Hindus often have an experience with Yama and then get pushed back down with some mark left on their physical bodies when they wake up. Now, the Japanese usually get some sort of water; a river or a pond with a bridge crossing over, and many of them see fields and flowers... Other people have experiences of a previous life lived as another person, and they remember certain details about it. So, yeah, NDEs. Proof of something!
Thunderfire Posted December 3, 2013 Posted December 3, 2013 I also found this a great question to consider! In my opinion, it is easy to find numerous testimonies of an afterlife. But all the proof in the world is easily discarded if someone's mind is already made up. Typically, those I have encountered that do not believe, at one time did believe (maybe as a young "baptized" child). Many times it can be traced back to an "event" where their faith was shattered, causing them to doubt in an afterlife. But in the end, the real issue is not believing in a God whom they believe failed them. So show them the glory of God instead! Help them take even the smallest of steps and marvel at how Jesus does the rest! Just my thoughts.
VideoGameJunkie Posted December 4, 2013 Author Posted December 4, 2013 I also found this a great question to consider! In my opinion, it is easy to find numerous testimonies of an afterlife. But all the proof in the world is easily discarded if someone's mind is already made up. Typically, those I have encountered that do not believe, at one time did believe (maybe as a young "baptized" child). Many times it can be traced back to an "event" where their faith was shattered, causing them to doubt in an afterlife. But in the end, the real issue is not believing in a God whom they believe failed them. So show them the glory of God instead! Help them take even the smallest of steps and marvel at how Jesus does the rest! Just my thoughts. Good thoughts. I enjoyed other people posting about testimonies of NDEs and to see what the differences are in each person's.
The Nehor Posted December 5, 2013 Posted December 5, 2013 The good news is you can use the scientific method to test the hypothesis of an afterlife. The bad news is that it is much more difficult to share your results. 1
Garden Girl Posted December 5, 2013 Posted December 5, 2013 This is particularly for VGJ... I've shared these two experiences previously on this board, but there are enough new people that I will do so again... Proof of afterlife?? To me, definitely... In 1995 during one of So Cal's heat waves of 100+ degrees for daaays, I called my mom and invited her and dad to come up and stay for a couple weeks here on the Oregon coast... told them my dh and I would drive down in our van and pick them up. They were thrilled (mom was 80; dad 85). So we made the van comfy with pillows, drinks, etc. We planned to just mosey up the coast on Hwy 101 through the redwoods, etc. They both loved to travel, pulling their trailer, but dad's vision was waning. We got an early start and spent our first night in Ukiah, just north of San Fran... mom said she was feeling tired and so turned in early. About 11:00 PM our phone rang in our room... it was my dad saying that he couldn't wake my mom up (she had cried out and awakened dad). I rushed to their room and there was my mom... I could hear the ambulance coming as I held her in my arms, trying to waken her... I saw the light go out of her eyes. At that moment I knew she had crossed through the veil.At the hospital, the doctors said they couldn't save her... that she didn't make it. My dad was beside himself... the local bishop came down to be with him (I was inactive at the time... it was this incident that sent me running back to the Church).I called my sister 2000 miles away... she took it very hard and ran out and fell onto the cool grass...I went into the hospital "chapel" and began to pray for strength... strength to deal with the coroner, whom we were waiting for... strength to deal with the funeral home, to get my dad back home, to stay with dad and help make arrangements... all the details that needed to be handled while dealing with my own grief... I began to weep deeply... Suddenly my mind was opened and I saw my mom... just her head and shoulders... she appeared more youthful, and she was gazing upward like she was looking at something in the distance... and the expression on her face was one of absolute joy... this lasted about 10 seconds and then faded...My sister, lying on the grass... felt like she was being hugged... and she heard my mom's voice... "I'm all right... I'm really fine." Again, this lasted just a few seconds.I will always be grateful for these experiences because to me they were gifts from a loving Heavenly Father to ease the pain of two of his daughters as they grieved at their loss... I stayed a month with my dad in So Cal, and in working with the Bishop and the RS pres, and attending Church for the first time in over 30 years, found the courage to answer the promptings I had been receiving from time to time through the years, and I returned to Church, starting all over again...And here I am today, stronger than ever... grateful to be a strong, faithful Latter Day Saint woman. GG
boblloyd91 Posted December 5, 2013 Posted December 5, 2013 Thanks Garden Girl! I could share a few as well. When my mother was about 10, her grandmother (who she was extremely close to) passed away. That night both she and my aunt had the exact same dream. They dreamed that my great grandmother was in a blue dress and was walking up the stairs to a gate, when she passed through the gate, her dress turned white and she looked so happy. She then told my mom and aunt that she was helping prepare a place for all of the grandkids when they came to see her again. If it was just my mom who dreamed this, I would call it a comforting dream, but it adds another dimension when two people have the exact same dream. I recently read a book by Marlene Bateman Sullivan about early church members who had nde's. It is a fascinating book. A number of people joined the church due to nde's. Also, I have read about Brigham Young's brother Lorenzo Dow Young whose nde/dream lead him to eventually join the church. NDE's are very much a part of LDS history
VideoGameJunkie Posted December 5, 2013 Author Posted December 5, 2013 This is particularly for VGJ... I've shared these two experiences previously on this board, but there are enough new people that I will do so again... Proof of afterlife?? To me, definitely... In 1995 during one of So Cal's heat waves of 100+ degrees for daaays, I called my mom and invited her and dad to come up and stay for a couple weeks here on the Oregon coast... told them my dh and I would drive down in our van and pick them up. They were thrilled (mom was 80; dad 85). So we made the van comfy with pillows, drinks, etc. We planned to just mosey up the coast on Hwy 101 through the redwoods, etc. They both loved to travel, pulling their trailer, but dad's vision was waning. We got an early start and spent our first night in Ukiah, just north of San Fran... mom said she was feeling tired and so turned in early. About 11:00 PM our phone rang in our room... it was my dad saying that he couldn't wake my mom up (she had cried out and awakened dad). I rushed to their room and there was my mom... I could hear the ambulance coming as I held her in my arms, trying to waken her... I saw the light go out of her eyes. At that moment I knew she had crossed through the veil.At the hospital, the doctors said they couldn't save her... that she didn't make it. My dad was beside himself... the local bishop came down to be with him (I was inactive at the time... it was this incident that sent me running back to the Church).I called my sister 2000 miles away... she took it very hard and ran out and fell onto the cool grass...I went into the hospital "chapel" and began to pray for strength... strength to deal with the coroner, whom we were waiting for... strength to deal with the funeral home, to get my dad back home, to stay with dad and help make arrangements... all the details that needed to be handled while dealing with my own grief... I began to weep deeply... Suddenly my mind was opened and I saw my mom... just her head and shoulders... she appeared more youthful, and she was gazing upward like she was looking at something in the distance... and the expression on her face was one of absolute joy... this lasted about 10 seconds and then faded...My sister, lying on the grass... felt like she was being hugged... and she heard my mom's voice... "I'm all right... I'm really fine." Again, this lasted just a few seconds.I will always be grateful for these experiences because to me they were gifts from a loving Heavenly Father to ease the pain of two of his daughters as they grieved at their loss... I stayed a month with my dad in So Cal, and in working with the Bishop and the RS pres, and attending Church for the first time in over 30 years, found the courage to answer the promptings I had been receiving from time to time through the years, and I returned to Church, starting all over again...And here I am today, stronger than ever... grateful to be a strong, faithful Latter Day Saint woman. GGThat's a wonderful story and so great you could experience that!
Tiki Posted December 6, 2013 Posted December 6, 2013 (edited) Evidence? The Book of Mormon revealed by the Angel Moroni. John the Baptist and Peter, James and John, restoring the Priesthood. The Savior appearing in the Kirtland Temple. Temples and Temple work for the dead. ho hum. But it all ends when we croak and kick the bucket. Edited December 6, 2013 by Tiki
thesometimesaint Posted December 6, 2013 Posted December 6, 2013 Proof is different than evidence. Anecdotal evidence is evidence, but it is a long ways from proof. As I tell my Atheistic friends; If they are right, none of us will know any differently after we die.
VideoGameJunkie Posted December 6, 2013 Author Posted December 6, 2013 I would hope atheists wouldn't want to be right, because nothing is more horrifying than thinking existence ends after death.
Ahab Posted December 6, 2013 Posted December 6, 2013 I would hope atheists wouldn't want to be right, because nothing is more horrifying than thinking existence ends after death.It depends on what kind of existence you envision for yourself, I suppose. If you continued living after you died but you felt torrmented in that existence I suppose it would be better to imagine that you wouldn't ever have to live in those conditions, even if that meant you wouldn't go on living.
Recommended Posts