cinepro Posted October 9, 2013 Posted October 9, 2013 (edited) How long ago do L.D.S members believe Adam first walked the Earth?Official LDS publications and curriculum date the "Fall" to ~4,000BC. We have no idea how long Adam and Eve were in the Garden before that. It could have been two weeks. It could have been a billion years. Edited October 9, 2013 by cinepro
danieldemol Posted October 9, 2013 Author Posted October 9, 2013 Pray, do tell, what is that purpose? (Thanks in advance! )My purpose is to understand what the LDS people here believe so i can have meaningful dialog.
danieldemol Posted October 9, 2013 Author Posted October 9, 2013 I don't know about all the others, but this LDS believes Adam & Eve were cast out of the Garden approx. 6000 years ago.As to how long they were in the Garden is anyone's guess.Do you believe there was no death either in humans and/or in animals before this?
Bill “Papa” Lee Posted October 9, 2013 Posted October 9, 2013 How long ago do L.D.S members believe Adam first walked the Earth?No way for anyone to know, he was first immortal before he fell for Eve.
danieldemol Posted October 9, 2013 Author Posted October 9, 2013 Adam was the first man on the earth of all man. There were no preadamites. Adam was also created first before the animals. Adam' creation and expulsion is no older than 6-7 thousand years ago. That is what I glean from the scriptures.What do you make of the 35,000 year old Neanderthal burial cave Shanidar in Iraq, or this 12,000 year old human burial pit in Israel?http://www.livescience.com/37881-ancient-grave-flowers-unearthed.html
Kenngo1969 Posted October 9, 2013 Posted October 9, 2013 My purpose is to understand what the LDS people here believe so i can have meaningful dialog.As previous responses show, you're likely to find a wide spectrum of belief with respect to the age of the Earth among members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. In my view, it's rather like debating how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. It might be an interesting pastime, but it's unlikely to yield any definitive conclusions (and even if it were, the conclusions themselves would be of much less value than other principles taught within the Restored Gospel of Jesus Christ). The age of the Earth is not a saving principle or ordinance within the Gospel. More fruitful dialogue (and much more common ground, notwithstanding whatever differences we may have, for that matter) is likely to result from discussion of saving principles and ordinances (see Article of Faith #4, as well as the Articles of Faith generally). 1
danieldemol Posted October 9, 2013 Author Posted October 9, 2013 Official LDS publications and curriculum date the "Fall" to ~4,000BC. We have no idea how long Adam and Eve were in the Garden before that. It could have been two weeks. It could have been a billion years.Do you believe there was no death before the fall?
danieldemol Posted October 9, 2013 Author Posted October 9, 2013 As previous responses show, you're likely to find a wide spectrum of belief with respect to the age of the Earth among members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. In my view, it's rather like debating how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. It might be an interesting pastime, but it's unlikely to yield any definitive conclusions (and even if it were, the conclusions themselves would be of much less value than other principles taught within the Restored Gospel of Jesus Christ). The age of the Earth is not a saving principle or ordinance within the Gospel. More fruitful dialogue (and much more common ground, notwithstanding whatever differences we may have, for that matter) is likely to result from discussion of saving principles and ordinances (see Article of Faith #4, as well as the Articles of Faith generally).Perhaps I will open a thread to discuss that later, although you are welcome to post a link to the LDS articles of faith here if you have one for my knowledge.I think you are measuring fruitfulness in terms of potential for conversion, however I see the advancement of scientific knowledge as a fruitful endeavor, and if beliefs about the fall are not articles of faith, and thus presumably not likely to take one away from faith in the LDS church I see no harm in such fruitful dialog even trying to imagine it from your perspective.
ERayR Posted October 9, 2013 Posted October 9, 2013 6013 years ago Adam and Eve walked thus earth! I think that a more correct time would be 6013 years 6 months 10 days and 4 hours. That's as close as I can get. 1
ERayR Posted October 9, 2013 Posted October 9, 2013 Do you believe there was no death before the fall? Depends, is that in the garden or out? 1
mfbukowski Posted October 9, 2013 Posted October 9, 2013 OK. My personal answer: I have no idea, and knowing that time is relative anyway, I'm not even sure how to have an idea.Yep I think that is the way many see it. It could be literal or it could be figurative, the way I see it, but it really doesn't mater which it is since that is unknowable. We might as well argue about what "really" happened when Zanu fought the battle of Klug on the planet Xyto. What is important is that we understand the principles involved, that death is caused by sin, and repentance brings life to our spirits. But yes, I have faith that Adam was "real"- it's just that all we have is stories to teach spiritual principles about him, and these stories can be used to teach us truths which have practical importance in our lives. But a date? No way- it could have been anytime, or none at all. 1
jkwilliams Posted October 9, 2013 Posted October 9, 2013 This is one of those stories, like the Flood, that for me works better as an allegory than as a literal occurrence. I don't see any reason to waste time or energy trying to "prove" it literally happened. The important thing in the story is the message about our imperfect human condition and how God loves us enough to redeem us from that state. And that message doesn't depend on it being literal at all.
BCSpace Posted October 9, 2013 Posted October 9, 2013 It seems to answer the question as to why big-brained homo sapiens could walk the earth for a quarter of a million plus years with little development and then suddenly and rapidly advance. In addition to or in conjunction with a different spirit scenario, I could also go with an uplift; perhaps a gift of intelligence from God or the result of eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge.... Or perhaps the well-established, observable phenomenon that sometimes goes by the names, "emergence," "emergent complexity," or "spontaneous complexity," is a better answer to the question. People have been experimenting with complexity theory and emergent systems for a long time now, and many researchers have modeled and witnessed the sort of thing that you say needs a god in order to explain it, and thus to reconcile it with science. It really seems to me that our stories are meant to convey some other sort of truth than the one we label as "scientific" or empirical. I have no problem explaining what God has done through science.
mfbukowski Posted October 9, 2013 Posted October 9, 2013 Do you believe there was no death before the fall?I do. The linguistic concept of "death" in the way humans understand it could not exist before humans had a concept of "sin". Before that, if there was a before, we did not understand either concept. We had to understand right and wrong before we could be responsible enough to sin, before that we were in a state of innocence, as are babies. Babies understand neither sin nor death, and it is not a coincidence that we get an understanding of the importance of both around the age of 8. The consequences of sin bring death into the world- if you drive drunk constantly, you are not going to live long. If you rob banks for a living you are not going to live long. Those are extreme examples, but it is also true that if you overeat you are not going to live long. Ultimately, breaking commandments brings death just as a practical consequence. 1
mfbukowski Posted October 9, 2013 Posted October 9, 2013 What do you make of the 35,000 year old Neanderthal burial cave Shanidar in Iraq, or this 12,000 year old human burial pit in Israel?http://www.livescience.com/37881-ancient-grave-flowers-unearthed.htmlIt's all a commie plot. 2
BCSpace Posted October 9, 2013 Posted October 9, 2013 As previous responses show, you're likely to find a wide spectrum of belief with respect to the age of the Earth among members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. In my view, it's rather like debating how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. It might be an interesting pastime, but it's unlikely to yield any definitive conclusions (and even if it were, the conclusions themselves would be of much less value than other principles taught within the Restored Gospel of Jesus Christ). The age of the Earth is not a saving principle or ordinance within the Gospel. Here is the doctrine on the age of the Earth: While it is interesting to note these various theories, officially the Church has not taken a stand on the age of the earth. For reasons best known to Himself, the Lord has not yet seen fit to formally reveal the details of the Creation. Therefore, while Latter-day Saints are commanded to learn truth from many different fields of study (see D&C 88:77–79), an attempt to establish any theory as the official position of the Church is not justifiable. http://www.lds.org/manual/old-testament-student-manual-genesis-2-samuel/genesis-1-2-the-creation?lang=eng
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted October 9, 2013 Posted October 9, 2013 so i can have meaningful dialog.To what end? Anyway I have no idea how long ago Adam lived. My testimony is not built upon such trivial matters. I believe he was real and that the events described in the scriptures took place maybe not exactly as it is laid out. Do I think the times lines are accurate? I am not sure. Does that matter much? I remained unconviced that it does. 2
mfbukowski Posted October 9, 2013 Posted October 9, 2013 Official LDS publications and curriculum date the "Fall" to ~4,000BC. We have no idea how long Adam and Eve were in the Garden before that. It could have been two weeks. It could have been a billion years.Heck I have socks in my bottom drawer older than that.
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted October 9, 2013 Posted October 9, 2013 For me, I believed it until about a year ago... when I actually decided to think about O.T. events and accounts critically.Sweet some one that is coming here to teach all of us rubes the truth. I mean after all this suggests that none of us have thought critically about the OT.
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted October 9, 2013 Posted October 9, 2013 Depends, is that in the garden or out?Correct.
mfbukowski Posted October 9, 2013 Posted October 9, 2013 My purpose is to understand what the LDS people here believe so i can have meaningful dialog.Hmmmm- fundie or atheist? Anyone taking bets? 1
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted October 9, 2013 Posted October 9, 2013 (edited) but it is also true that if you overeat you are not going to live long. bummer. I love eating at Dic key's. And I tend to get the 3 meat plate. I just can't win. Edited October 9, 2013 by Mola Ram Suda Ram
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted October 9, 2013 Posted October 9, 2013 What do you make of the 35,000 year old Neanderthal burial cave Shanidar in Iraq, or this 12,000 year old human burial pit in Israel?http://www.livescience.com/37881-ancient-grave-flowers-unearthed.htmlIt really is a commie plot.
jkwilliams Posted October 9, 2013 Posted October 9, 2013 Hmmmm- fundie or atheist? Anyone taking bets? Or it could just be someone who is interested in knowing what Mormons think about this.
cursor Posted October 9, 2013 Posted October 9, 2013 (edited) The idea that there was no physical death prior to human involvement in world history is, well, nuts (excuse me ... a little bit off the wall ... or, unbelievable). In order for man/woman to be here at all, there had to have been a gradual, a natural, an evolutionary path. That clearly took millions of earthly years. Edited October 9, 2013 by cursor 1
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