Interpretation Of Isaiah 4:1

[EllenMaksoud]

This scripture came up in a discussion here, and I just now had time to get back to it. In looking it over, the Bible at LDS.org is well annotated, and I suspect there is more to the discussion. Along with wondering about a future fulfillment, I also wonder if the scripture was already fulfilled close to the time it was written?

 

In my brief research I can see it is said to have been written around the 8th century BC. I'm not that familiar with the civil history of the time.

 

I don't see it being fulfilled today or in the near future, escpecially with women now making up around 1/4 of the Military, and with the American people being disillusioned with war.

 

It would be interesting to read what others have to say about this.

Edited October 9, 2013 by EllenMaksoud

[JLHPROF]

This scripture came up in a discussion here, and I just now had time to get back to it. In looking it over, the Bible at LDS.org is well annotated, and I suspect there is more to the discussion. Along with wondering about a future fulfillment, I also wonder if the scripture was already fulfilled close to the time it was written?

 

In my brief research I can see it is said to have been written around the 8th century BC. I'm not that familiar with the civil history of the time.

 

I don't see it being fulfilled today or in the near future, escpecially with women now making up around 1/4 of the Military, and with the American people being disillusioned with war.

 

It would be interesting to read what others have to say about this.

 

Well, this is one of the very few times when the reason for plural marriage actually does include (but not necessarily depend on) a shortage of men as described in the end of chapter 3.

The vision that includes this verse starts back in Chapter 2, verse 2 and specifically mentions "the last days" so we know it is either contemporary to our time or in the near future, as it also refers to the SL Temple prophecy (tops of the mountains) in the same vision.

 

Depending on your take it could refer to the restoration of plural marriage under Joseph Smith, or perhaps to the future restoration of plural marriage with the millenium (more likely given the rest of the vision).  So in my opinion Isaiah 4:1 is probably on the near horizon.

[EllenMaksoud]

Well, this is one of the very few times when the reason for plural marriage actually does include (but not necessarily depend on) a shortage of men as described in the end of chapter 3.

The vision that includes this verse starts back in Chapter 2, verse 2 and specifically mentions "the last days" so we know it is either contemporary to our time or in the near future, as it also refers to the SL Temple prophecy (tops of the mountains) in the same vision.

 

Depending on your take it could refer to the restoration of plural marriage under Joseph Smith, or perhaps to the future restoration of plural marriage with the millenium (more likely given the rest of the vision).  So in my opinion Isaiah 4:1 is probably on the near horizon.

Interestingly, not 20 minutes ago, I was talking with a woman my age that is under a lot of financial stress and she said that if she felt that would be plausible today, she would be talking to the Bishop right now. I would be open out of pure need for companionship, so it's "second ??? fulfillment might be coming?

[Glenn101]

Is it not possible that this prophecy has already been fulfilled by the Babylonian captivity and/or later invasion by the Romans? And again, this may be a dual prophecy of those ancients events as a type of what is to happen in the latter days.

 

And is it mainly about Israel, or about the church in general?

 

Too many variables.

 

Glenn

[JLHPROF]

Is it not possible that this prophecy has already been fulfilled by the Babylonian captivity and/or later invasion by the Romans? And again, this may be a dual prophecy of those ancients events as a type of what is to happen in the latter days.

 

And is it mainly about Israel, or about the church in general?

 

Too many variables.

 

Glenn

Is it possible, yes.  But the vision that runs from chapters 2-4 clearly speaks of the establishment of the temple in the tops of the mountains and refers to the events of the vision as occurring in the last days.  I don't see that it refers to an ancient event, but to an end times event.

[EllenMaksoud]

Is it possible, yes.  But the vision that runs from chapters 2-4 clearly speaks of the establishment of the temple in the tops of the mountains and refers to the events of the vision as occurring in the last days.  I don't see that it refers to an ancient event, but to an end times event.

I am not sure I believe in a catastrophic end times like the dispensationalism that I was taught. Rather, I am leaning toward an end times perhaps thousands of years in the future. My sentiment tells me that Heavenly Father will leave us to struggle until we fully realize the consequences of our actions. I see radical feminists still possessing too much power, at present, to allow such marital arrangements. And, conditions in civil government would need to be such that there would not be opposition.

Edited October 9, 2013 by EllenMaksoud

[Calm]

(13-23) Isaiah 4:1. “Take Away Our Reproach”

Verse 1 of chapter four seems to continue the thought of chapter three rather than to begin a new thought. This phrase suggests that the condition mentioned in verse 1 is caused by the scarcity of men, a result of the devastation of war mentioned in Isaiah 3:25–26. The conditions under which these women would accept this marriage (“eat our own bread, and wear our own apparel”) are contrary to the Lord’s order of marriage (see Exodus 21:10; D&C 132:58–61). To be unmarried and childless in ancient Israel was a disgrace (see Genesis 30:23; Luke 1:25). So terrible would conditions in those times be that women would offer to share a husband with others and expect no material support from him, if they could claim they were married to him.

http://www.lds.org/manual/old-testament-student-manual-kings-malachi/chapter-13?lang=eng

[EllenMaksoud]

http://www.lds.org/manual/old-testament-student-manual-kings-malachi/chapter-13?lang=eng

So, unless conditions change radically, and really fast, it will not happen soon.

[Calm]

So, unless conditions change radically, and really fast, it will not happen soon.

I see it as unlikely, but really don't know.  There are cultures where there are those who desire baptism who are in polygynous marriages.  In that case, the Church has instructed them not to be baptised but to stay with their families.  Sometimes I wonder if accommodation may be eventually made for such circumstances while restricting of multiple marriages after baptism as missionary work expands more into these cultures thus increasing the numbers in this situation.

Edited October 9, 2013 by calmoriah

[Tacenda]

I see it as unlikely, but really don't know. There are cultures where there are those who desire baptism who are in polygynous marriages. In that case, the Church has instructed them not to be baptised but to stay with their families. Sometimes I wonder if accommodation may be eventually made for such circumstances while restricting of multiple marriages after baptism as missionary work expands more into these cultures thus increasing the numbers in this situation.

Your comment made me think of the show "The Ancient Paths" with Jason Wallace. His latest show, last Wednesday on TV20 @ 8 pm, featured Martin Tanner who has a radio show and is LDS. They were discussing many issues, one of them polygamy, of course, and Martin brought up the fact that there were many polygamists that were joining the same church Wallace is in, Presbyterian. He thought it pretty interesting that they were allowed to be baptized and everything, but no polygamist can be baptized in the LDS church. How ironic!

[mfbukowski]

Is it not possible that this prophecy has already been fulfilled by the Babylonian captivity and/or later invasion by the Romans? And again, this may be a dual prophecy of those ancients events as a type of what is to happen in the latter days.

 

And is it mainly about Israel, or about the church in general?

 

Too many variables.

 

Glenn

I don't want to derail this interesting thread, but we sometimes hear that Joseph was a "false prophet" because not all of his prophecies were (yet?) fulfilled, and I brought up that there were many biblical prophecies which conflicted with others and were also not fulfilled, or so ambiguous that really they could mean anything.  So does that mean that biblical prophets were "false"?

 

Maybe this is one of those prophecies.  Maybe not.

[EllenMaksoud]

Your comment made me think of the show "The Ancient Paths" with Jason Wallace. His latest show, last Wednesday on TV20 @ 8 pm, featured Martin Tanner who has a radio show and is LDS. They were discussing many issues, one of them polygamy, of course, and Martin brought up the fact that there were many polygamists that were joining the same church Wallace is in, Presbyterian. He thought it pretty interesting that they were allowed to be baptized and everything, but no polygamist can be baptized in the LDS church. How ironic!

From my very unknowledgeable point of view, I think that at least part of the reason polygamy "disappeared" in the LDS church was satanic persecution. Should it return, I think that perhaps Heavenly Father would place restrictions on it and that with the caveat that no abuses take place, IE 3-4 wives who might not all be reproductive, etc.  The seven wives in Isaiah 4:1 seems like a lot.

[Investigator]

Much like the Book of Mormon, Isaiah was written for us, otherwise why are we to " search the words of Isaiah. Here is a link that will help in understanding the words of Isaiah.

http://isaiahexplained.com/isaiah_ch_04.html#_0C

[Tacenda]

From my very unknowledgeable point of view, I think that at least part of the reason polygamy "disappeared" in the LDS church was satanic persecution. Should it return, I think that perhaps Heavenly Father would place restrictions on it and that with the caveat that no abuses take place, IE 3-4 wives who might not all be reproductive, etc. The seven wives in Isaiah 4:1 seems like a lot.

In other words, a family like Cody Browns, where the abuse is on Cody , that man is a saint, where his concerns for taking care of each wife's needs, not pertaining to their sex life, but in all areas of their marriage, is concerned. ETA: Those women are spoiled with all that concern from him, I'm jealous and I've been so against polygamy all these years, until this family showed up. Of course we don't see the "behind the scenes". Edited October 9, 2013 by Tacenda

[EllenMaksoud]

After reading Isaiah 3, it seems as if 4:1 is perhaps specific to that time. I do not know if there is president for saying it is for other times also.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

This scripture came up in a discussion here, and I just now had time to get back to it. In looking it over, the Bible at LDS.org is well annotated, and I suspect there is more to the discussion. Along with wondering about a future fulfillment, I also wonder if the scripture was already fulfilled close to the time it was written?

 

In my brief research I can see it is said to have been written around the 8th century BC. I'm not that familiar with the civil history of the time.

 

I don't see it being fulfilled today or in the near future, escpecially with women now making up around 1/4 of the Military, and with the American people being disillusioned with war.

 

It would be interesting to read what others have to say about this.

It happens every time we go to war we become disillusioned over and over. I used to be in the Army, thankfully I never had to go to war, came close many times, said goodby to my wife and children many times...hoping cooler heads would prevail, (thankfully they did as I served in a unit that was first response) and I returned home each time. Isiaih speaks of many times, he stands apart from many Prophets as he saw all times, past, preset and future, as we all will someday.

[jst]

The general thrust of these chapters is to liken the House of Israel to women who are playing the harlot (cf. Isaiah 49-54, Ezek. 16, 23; Hosea 1-2).  But the Lord promises that these women (Israel) will eventually repent and return to their husband--the Lord.  Consequently, one could interpret Isaiah 4:1 as representing the House of Israel clinging to "one man," the Lord, and receiving his name to take away their reproach.  That Israel is represented by seven women (the daughters (plural) of zion from 3:16?) could be understood in the same way as John's seven churches in Revelation--i.e., the complete or whole house/church.

[JLHPROF]

After reading Isaiah 3, it seems as if 4:1 is perhaps specific to that time. I do not know if there is president for saying it is for other times also.

 

That's a little out of context - the vision starts in Chapter 2 by saying it is the last days.  The only way to place this vision is to read the whole thing, from

"The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem.

And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it."

 

until chapter 5 switches gear with "Now will I sing to my wellbeloved a song".

Isaiah tells us that this is the last days.

[JLHPROF]

In other words, a family like Cody Browns, where the abuse is on Cody , that man is a saint, where his concerns for taking care of each wife's needs, not pertaining to their sex life, but in all areas of their marriage, is concerned. ETA: Those women are spoiled with all that concern from him, I'm jealous and I've been so against polygamy all these years, until this family showed up. Of course we don't see the "behind the scenes".

 

I know many polygamists personally (there are so many in my area) and honestly, they are more like Kody & his family than the FLDS crazies. 

[EllenMaksoud]

It happens every time we go to war we become disillusioned over and over. I used to be in the Army, thankfully I never had to go to war, came close many times, said goodby to my wife and children many times...hoping cooler heads would prevail, (thankfully they did as I served in a unit that was first response) and I returned home each time. Isiaih speaks of many times, he stands apart from many Prophets as he saw all times, past, preset and future, as we all will someday.

I'm not sure but perhaps it would be beneficial to return to prior first world war foreign policy? Our Veterans Administration Hospitals are full of Veterans dealing with the consequences of American Adventurism. I think it is often the case that those advocating for US involvement in foreign conflict are often Oil folk, and not themselves Veterans.

[EllenMaksoud]

That's a little out of context - the vision starts in Chapter 2 by saying it is the last days.  The only way to place this vision is to read the whole thing, from

"The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem.

And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it."

 

until chapter 5 switches gear with "Now will I sing to my wellbeloved a song".

Isaiah tells us that this is the last days.

Thank you. The reason I started this thread was that I knew my understanding of it was incomplete and it is pleasant to have discussions with others who love Heavenly Father as much as I do.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

I'm not sure but perhaps it would be beneficial to return to prior first world war foreign policy? Our Veterans Administration Hospitals are full of Veterans dealing with the consequences of American Adventurism. I think it is often the case that those advocating for US involvement in foreign conflict are often Oil folk, and not themselves Veterans.

It is only advanced medicine that makes this possible, they used to die on the battlefield. We should avoid all war, but until all that Isaiah says (or said) comes to pass and all swords are beaten into plowshares, an the Lion lies down with the Lamb and the Prince of Peace rules...this is our fate.

[EllenMaksoud]

It is only advanced medicine that makes this possible, they used to die on the battlefield. We should avoid all war, but until all that Isaiah says (or said) comes to pass and all swords are beaten into plowshares, an the Lion lies down with the Lamb and the Prince of Peace rules...this is our fate.

I do not mean to sound jaded or mean spirited, but I wonder if we just stayed out of the Middle East if the combatants would just kill each other off and the rest of us could just go on with our lives?

[theplains]

It would be interesting to read what others have to say about this.

 

Verse 2's "branch" is linked with Joseph Smith. According to the LDS Church, there

are four Josephs in the Book of Mormon. See this study manual.

 

Regards,

Jim

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

I do not mean to sound jaded or mean spirited, but I wonder if we just stayed out of the Middle East if the combatants would just kill each other off and the rest of us could just go on with our lives?

Ellen,

Every alert I was ever called on in Germany (other than our primary duties on the East German Border) were for issues in the Middle East. I served in Germany from 1979 to 1981. People who hate be in Germans, Irish, whomever...will make every effort to hurt them anyway they can, even those like myself who spent many years in law enforcement. Again hate is a condition of fallen man, getting back to Isiaih.