LordUther Posted September 11, 2013 Posted September 11, 2013 But there is room for witnesses and testimony that does not include the Holy Ghost. The testimony of the 8 witnesses of the gold plates was not a Holy Ghost testimony, but a purely nuts-and-bolts "we saw the plates, handled them, etc." There was no mention of witnesses of the Holy Ghost in that statement, just -- the plates are real. Obviously that meant something, enough for it to be recorded and included in our scriptures. Absolutely, it is testimony that the plates existed. A physically testimony is all that is needed as evidence of something physical. But what does that prove about the truth of the BoM? Not much really. Even if we had the plates and they were turned over to a team of non church historians who translated them, and it was proven that Joseph Smith translated them correctly it would still prove nothing in regards to them being the word of God. Sure it would prove that they were ancient records that contained the religious teachings of people who live in the Americas a couple of thousand years ago. It might even help prove that Joseph had to have supernatural help to have achieved the translation, but it doesn't prove that it came from God. Only the Spirit can do such.
LordUther Posted September 12, 2013 Posted September 12, 2013 This is precisely my point, we are taught to base our entire eternal salvation on a feeling or experience that can be replicated by watching a Hollywood film. In my experience (and I've heard similar stories from many others) the sensations I felt during these secular activities were identical to the spirit I felt on my mission watching an investigator get baptized.Recently I had a conversation with a friend of mine who was going through a faith crisis. After reading some of the more troubling aspects about polygamy, he decided he needed to kneel down in prayer and ask God about it. He received, in his words an "undeniable" answer that polygamy was wrong. This friend is a life long member, RM, who was married in the temple-he knows how to recognize the spirit. So was this an "undeniable" answer from God, or was he confused? My point is that spiritual witnesses from the Holy Ghost are often unreliable. So what you're saying is that because you were given the gift of the Holy Ghost to be your constant companion, and because the Holy Ghost is your constant companion and you can feel His presence not only at church or when doing something church related but other times also when you are observing something good & pure - I'm assuming you're not getting these feelings while watch Nightmare on Elm St, this confuses you? What part of constant companion don't you understand? The Holy Ghost is not only there as a testifier but also as a guide. It doesn't only warn us of when we stray off the path but also lets us know we are on the right path. Watching wholesome films instead of movies with explicit content, the Holy Ghost will let you know this is a good movie to watch. That spending your evening watching a child's ballet recital is an evening well spent. I don't see why the Holy Ghost being with you at these times would confuse you, sorry.
Brian 2.0 Posted September 12, 2013 Posted September 12, 2013 So what you're saying is that because you were given the gift of the Holy Ghost to be your constant companion, and because the Holy Ghost is your constant companion and you can feel His presence not only at church or when doing something church related but other times also when you are observing something good & pure - I'm assuming you're not getting these feelings while watch Nightmare on Elm St, this confuses you? What part of constant companion don't you understand? The Holy Ghost is not only there as a testifier but also as a guide. It doesn't only warn us of when we stray off the path but also lets us know we are on the right path. Watching wholesome films instead of movies with explicit content, the Holy Ghost will let you know this is a good movie to watch. That spending your evening watching a child's ballet recital is an evening well spent. I don't see why the Holy Ghost being with you at these times would confuse you, sorry. I think the confusion comes when the Holy Ghost is testifying two different "truths." One person says the Holy Ghost testified to them that Polygamy was not from God. Another says the Holy Ghost testifies that Polygamy was from God. Either the Holy Ghost testified the truthfulness of two competing ideas, or one of them, even though they were well-versed in listening to and following the spirit, misidentified the thought as being from the Holy Ghost.
LordUther Posted September 12, 2013 Posted September 12, 2013 I think the confusion comes when the Holy Ghost is testifying two different "truths." One person says the Holy Ghost testified to them that Polygamy was not from God. Another says the Holy Ghost testifies that Polygamy was from God. Either the Holy Ghost testified the truthfulness of two competing ideas, or one of them, even though they were well-versed in listening to and following the spirit, misidentified the thought as being from the Holy Ghost. Well, that's simple, the Holy Ghost doesn't testify that something is wrong. See D&C 9:8-9 8 But, behold, I say unto you, that you must astudy it out in yourbmind; then you must cask me if it be right, and if it is right I will cause that your dbosom shall eburn within you; therefore, you shall ffeel that it is right. 9 But if it be not right you shall have no such feelings, but you shall have a astupor of thought that shall cause you to forget the thing which is wrong; therefore, you cannot write that which isbsacred save it be given you from me. The spirit burns if something is right, if something is wrong you receive a stupor of thought regarding the issue. Therefore if you pray about polygamy and the Holy Ghost burns in your chest then polygamy is of God, if you receive a stupor of thought it's not.
omni Posted September 12, 2013 Posted September 12, 2013 So what you're saying is that because you were given the gift of the Holy Ghost to be your constant companion, and because the Holy Ghost is your constant companion and you can feel His presence not only at church or when doing something church related but other times also when you are observing something good & pure - I'm assuming you're not getting these feelings while watch Nightmare on Elm St, You'd be right, but it was rated "R" (yeah, I'll admit as somewhat of a film buff I do occasionally watch them)...does the spirit testify to us that a poignant moment in a rated "R" movie is true? What part of constant companion don't you understand? The part where we are constantly warned by our leaders that the spirit won't be with us when we watch rated "R" movies.
LordUther Posted September 12, 2013 Posted September 12, 2013 You'd be right, but it was rated "R" (yeah, I'll admit as somewhat of a film buff I do occasionally watch them)...does the spirit testify to us that a poignant moment in a rated "R" movie is true?The part where we are constantly warned by our leaders that the spirit won't be with us when we watch rated "R" movies.Being British I don't understand the US rating system but I guess R is something like our 15 or 18, the Holy Ghost may not have been testifying that what was happening was true, but that the principle contained within was a true one. Maybe the Spirit was with you because that particular movie didn't drive the Spirit away. Maybe the Spirit was trying to tell you something...did you ask Him?
Brian 2.0 Posted September 12, 2013 Posted September 12, 2013 The spirit burns if something is right, if something is wrong you receive a stupor of thought regarding the issue. Therefore if you pray about polygamy and the Holy Ghost burns in your chest then polygamy is of God, if you receive a stupor of thought it's not. So what are we to make of two people praying about Polygamy and one has the HG burn in their chest and the other has a stupor of thought?
LordUther Posted September 12, 2013 Posted September 12, 2013 I've never come across anyone who claimed that, anyone I've ever listened to has always mentioned them praying and the Spirit being there, and I've always took that for them to be misunderstanding what the Spirit is telling them. Ie "I prayed to know if polygamy is wrong and I felt the Spirit so I know it's wrong" well actually no if you felt the Spirit that was God telling you it was of him.Maybe that it was God telling them it was wrong for them as an individual...? That its wrong for now? That its not something they would be asked to do. Without knowing the specifics of what their intent for knowing is and how they asked it would be hard to pin down a suitable response.
oremites Posted September 12, 2013 Posted September 12, 2013 Recently I had a conversation with a friend of mine who was going through a faith crisis. After reading some of the more troubling aspects about polygamy, he decided he needed to kneel down in prayer and ask God about it. He received, in his words an "undeniable" answer that polygamy was wrong. This friend is a life long member, RM, who was married in the temple-he knows how to recognize the spirit. So was this an "undeniable" answer from God, or was he confused? My point is that spiritual witnesses from the Holy Ghost are often unreliable. Why would that experience indicate that he was confused or that the spiritual witness is unreliable? Shouldn't we expect to get the "undeniable" answer that polygamy is wrong? After all, doesn't the church teach against polygamy and excommunicates polygamists?
cinepro Posted September 12, 2013 Posted September 12, 2013 So what are we to make of two people praying about Polygamy and one has the HG burn in their chest and the other has a stupor of thought? I'm guessing the former is a guy, and the latter is a girl....?
omni Posted September 12, 2013 Posted September 12, 2013 Why would that experience indicate that he was confused or that the spiritual witness is unreliable? Shouldn't we expect to get the "undeniable" answer that polygamy is wrong? After all, doesn't the church teach against polygamy and excommunicates polygamists?He was specifically asking about polygamy in the early years of the church (JS/BY time period).
Duncan Posted September 12, 2013 Author Posted September 12, 2013 (edited) Omni! Luv your guts and hope all is well with you and yours!. I too have had those same experiences while watching a movie, music or some other experience that evokes an emotional responce to me. I saw my son being born and I teared up then.I threw up earlier but teared up then!! Two things to keep in mind is that those kinds of experiences have never told me that the Book of Mormon is a true witness of Christ or the Church is true or that Joseph Smith is a prophet, those kinds of experiences at least for me have come through other experiences I have had. In other words I can watch the final episode of MASH and tear up but I haven't or wouldn't expect the spirit to tell me that Pres. Monson is a prophet of God. The spirit is driven away by distractions and noise (MASH IS awesome I should say) so those testifying experiences have come to me when things were at peace the other thing is we can go too far on either side of the emotional/rational sides of things. If we make decisions based on our emotions, we really haven't thought it out until later and think by george what have I done? My Mum knew a guy once who heard a stirring speech about joining the Military to be sent over to France in WW1 and then later thought what have I done!! he signed up without really thinking about it- he went and came back but he based his decision based on this speech he heard. On the other side is we can o too far with the rational side of things. Anything that you can talk yourself into you can talk yourself out of. In so many things we do in life you just have to take a leap of faith based on the information you have available and we can certaintly "shrink" as it says in the NT when Christ was about to perform the atonement in the garden of Gethsemane but thankfully for all of us he didn't over think it Edited September 12, 2013 by Duncan
The Nehor Posted September 12, 2013 Posted September 12, 2013 So what are we to make of two people praying about Polygamy and one has the HG burn in their chest and the other has a stupor of thought? One of them is probably wrong. Either that or the latter is genuinely stupid and had a stupor of thought because they just did not understand it enough to know how to pray about it.
Storm Rider Posted September 12, 2013 Posted September 12, 2013 One of them is probably wrong. Either that or the latter is genuinely stupid and had a stupor of thought because they just did not understand it enough to know how to pray about it.You made me laugh out loud, LOL, the whole way. It is very hard for me to believe these differences really exist, but I don't have to walk in their shoes and vice versa. I try to do what I know is right and leave the rest to God. 1
oremites Posted September 12, 2013 Posted September 12, 2013 He was specifically asking about polygamy in the early years of the church (JS/BY time period). It's been my experience that we can only expect revelation or inspiration for ourselves and those we're responsible for. If we're asked to practice polygamy, we would have every right ask God and expect to recieve an answer. Frankly, I don't think we can expect an answer to the the question, "Was person X commanded to do Y?", if it's got nothing to do with us. I understand that others might disagree. Christ gave us the measuring stick to judge a prophet - by their fruits ye shall know them. There are plenty of fruits of Joseph Smith that affect me and my family directly - The Book of Mormon, priesthood, temples, etc. I feel like I can and should pray about those things and recieve answers. Polygamy has no bearing at all on our lives. The spirit isn't some cosmic google search to answer all our trivia questions. The other point I'd be curious to know is how much actual study of the subject he did. Another well established principle of revelation is that we have to study things out for ourselves. We can't just kneel down and expect an answer right away with little or no effort on our part. If the past practice of polygamy was something that bothered me, I'd feel comfortable asking the spirit for guidance in my studies, but I'd do a lot of research into it before I'd feel comfortable asking directly if it was right or wrong.
Brian 2.0 Posted September 12, 2013 Posted September 12, 2013 The spirit isn't some cosmic google search to answer all our trivia questions. It's more like Lycos or AltaVista. If you know exactly how to phrase it and know how to sift through all the results, you just might find what you were looking for. 2
Deborah Posted September 12, 2013 Posted September 12, 2013 He was specifically asking about polygamy in the early years of the church (JS/BY time period). Why does it matter what earlier people were commanded to do. The answer doesn't pertain to us today. What one should pray about is to know if the church is true and led by living prophets. The rest is history.
omni Posted September 12, 2013 Posted September 12, 2013 Omni! Luv your guts and hope all is well with you and yours!. Ditto I too have had those same experiences while watching a movie, music or some other experience that evokes an emotional responce to me. So if you're receiving the same response to these two different activities how do you know it's not a natural response from your body? If the church is true, then I can't think of a more important question we could ever possibly ask of God. Yet we teach that he chooses to give confirmation to our questions in a manner that is identicle to a women asking if she should become the fourth polygamous wife of a man living in Centennial Park, Utah, or a young man contemplating becoming a pastor, or a Muslim extremist wondering if he should leave his family and engage in jihad. the other thing is we can go too far on either side of the emotional/rational sides of things. Agreed, I think the most well rounded people are those that can find that happy medium. I tend to lean to the logical side and my wife more to the emotional side. However I feel in the church we have a tendancy to lean to the extreme emotional side. I hear admonitions such as "lean not unto thy own understanding", "do not trust in the arm of the flesh", or "the proud and the learned" much more than I do praise of science and reason.
omni Posted September 12, 2013 Posted September 12, 2013 The other point I'd be curious to know is how much actual study of the subject he did. His intense study of the subject is what prompted him to ask God and his subsequent loss of faith.
omni Posted September 12, 2013 Posted September 12, 2013 Why does it matter what earlier people were commanded to do. The answer doesn't pertain to us today. What one should pray about is to know if the church is true and led by living prophets. The rest is history. It absolutely pertains to us today. If JS and the other four prophets were not commanded by God to practice polygamy then they were false prophets and the church is not true.
Tacenda Posted September 12, 2013 Posted September 12, 2013 It absolutely pertains to us today. If JS and the other four prophets were not commanded by God to practice polygamy then they were false prophets and the church is not true.The thing that I didn't know early on was that it was not commanded until Joseph prayed to see if it should be restored, that one thing is what bothers me most.
Duncan Posted September 12, 2013 Author Posted September 12, 2013 (edited) Ditto So if you're receiving the same response to these two different activities how do you know it's not a natural response from your body? If the church is true, then I can't think of a more important question we could ever possibly ask of God. Yet we teach that he chooses to give confirmation to our questions in a manner that is identicle to a women asking if she should become the fourth polygamous wife of a man living in Centennial Park, Utah, or a young man contemplating becoming a pastor, or a Muslim extremist wondering if he should leave his family and engage in jihad. Agreed, I think the most well rounded people are those that can find that happy medium. I tend to lean to the logical side and my wife more to the emotional side. However I feel in the church we have a tendancy to lean to the extreme emotional side. I hear admonitions such as "lean not unto thy own understanding", "do not trust in the arm of the flesh", or "the proud and the learned" much more than I do praise of science and reason. "So if you're receiving the same response to these two different activities how do you know it's not a natural response from your body? If the church is true, then I can't think of a more important question we could ever possibly ask of God. Yet we teach that he chooses to give confirmation to our questions in a manner that is identicle to a women asking if she should become the fourth polygamous wife of a man living in Centennial Park, Utah, or a young man contemplating becoming a pastor, or a Muslim extremist wondering if he should leave his family and engage in jihad." some activities are a sure bet every time that will get an emotional response, so say I cry at the end of the Wizard of Oz or something, but feeling the Holy Ghost testifying isn't a guarantee, you can create the right climate but we can't dictate to the Holy Ghost to come or not, God has his timetable and faith In Christ also means trust in his timing. I have no clue why people pray for years and years and God doesn't seem to answer. I knew a lady that said she prayed from like 1969 to literally 1999 to know if the Book of Mormon was true, but at the same time she said if she didn't know it was true she couldn't say it wasn't either, she just didn't know. one thing too to keep in mind is praying about those situations above and say if the Book of Mormon is true. Is in Mor. 10:I dunno 3 or something or something it says if these things are not true, how I read that is it asks you to make up your own mind, I think this is true or I think this is not true, but God isn't going to decide for you, he wants you to decide for yourself, he wants you to own it, he knows if it's true or not but he isn't the one on trial so to speak, we are. I wonder though if a Muslim would pray about these things or I wonder if people of other faiths pray about becoming a pastor (ihave no clue and I am related to some but don't know them well enough to ask) we lean to the emotional side of things but the scriptures also say we need to think on these things, Christ telling the Brother of Jared what do you think you should do? Ask your freind to clarify his answer or question, "polygamy was wrong" is that then or now? because it's wrong now and so maybe God was telling him that and if if was wrong back in the day maybe God corrected the practice by telling Pres. Woodruff to stop it Edited September 12, 2013 by Duncan
Deborah Posted September 12, 2013 Posted September 12, 2013 It absolutely pertains to us today. If JS and the other four prophets were not commanded by God to practice polygamy then they were false prophets and the church is not true. what you need to do is ask if Joseph Smith was a prophet. That is the correct question. If he was then plural marriage was a commandment at that time. 1
Questing Beast Posted September 12, 2013 Posted September 12, 2013 His intense study of the subject is what prompted him to ask God and his subsequent loss of faith.Hm, sounds exactly like me....
Calm Posted September 12, 2013 Posted September 12, 2013 The thing that I didn't know early on was that it was not commanded until Joseph prayed to see if it should be restored, that one thing is what bothers me most.That would seem to be making an assumption that he prayed because he wanted it restored. Another option was that he was trying to be conscientious and anticipate what the Lord wanted him to do. I once asked the Stake President when he was calling my husband to be an HC if he had to shave his beard off because I loved it so much (it occurred to me to ask him due to a recent thread we had on the board at that time). I walked out of that meeting hitting myself for even letting that thought occur to me. The way the SP phrased it, I think it quite possible he wouldn't have asked if I hadn't asked, but he decided to turn it into a test of obedience as in "well....if I asked would you accept it?" and I suspect my face showed enough frustration with what I felt was pushing the obedience lesson unnecessarily (and still do) that when I said "of course he would shave it and I would support him doing it", he said "well, I'm going to ask you". Sometimes we ask things because we want to do things the right way, sometimes just because we are curious, not always because we want to do what we are asking about. Considering how Joseph showed some reluctance in engaging in it (it took him four years after his first failed attempt to try again, IIRC, and if one accepts as real the angel with the sword threatening his life if he didn't as well), I think there is no reason one cannot give him the benefit of the doubt in this case and assume that while he might have thought the idea was interesting and wanted more info on it, he wasn't that interested in actually practicing it.
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