Jesus Christ Personal Visits

[Questing Beast]

@Cal: That's certainly the "faith promoting" angle.

 

What about, JS was alike intensely religious and sexual? How to combine those combating extremes? They do not intermix, they are "uneasy bed companions". How to fulfill intense religious callings and also not be hounded continually by sexuality "demons"? Where he really messed up was with the polyandry, and he stopped doing that fairly early on.

 

I don't believe in the "angel with a drawn sword threatening destruction if he didn't obey". That was just a metaphoric emphasis employed to impress the seriousness and sacredness of the shocking thing he was asking impressionable, young, female converts to participate in. JS was not above using such coercion, and that is one of the faults in his character that I deplore. He was far from "righteous" or "perfect", as he admitted himself (without gracing the public with any of the details, and how prudent of him!)....

Edited September 12, 2013 by Questing Beast

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

I was thinking of this whole Denver Snuffer stuff and it got me to thinking and wondering if Jesus Christ makes personal visits today, as in our time. I know of accounts from the early saints and others have made a variety of claims. I have no idea of these are legitimate but do you think he makes visits today?

I would have the burden of "knowing", instead of living by faith...who needs that judgement, I'll wait and see him in the a afterlife.

[Deborah]

What about, JS was alike intensely religious and sexual?

 

CFR the latter. Because he married multiple wives doesn't make him sexual in the sense you seem to be implying.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

CFR the latter. Because he married multiple wives doesn't make him sexual in the sense you seem to be implying.

Those who seek to attempt to put marriage into such a single emotion as sex, do not know much about marriage. When people try to do it with polygamy it is only an attempt to defame.

[Brian 2.0]

Those who seek to attempt to put marriage into such a single emotion as sex, do not know much about marriage. When people try to do it with polygamy it is only an attempt to defame.

 

This quote should also go in the SSA and marriage thread as well.

 

In fact... I'll go repost it there cause I agree with the point.

Edited September 12, 2013 by Brian 2.0

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

This quote should also go in the SSA and marriage thread as well.

 

In fact... I'll go repost it there cause I agree with the point.

If you wish, I have no problem with it. I try to stay out of the SSA threads, most just look at it from afar while it personally impacts my life.

[Brian 2.0]

If you wish, I have no problem with it. I try to stay out of the SSA threads, most just look at it from afar while it personally impacts my life.

 

And I definitely didn't post it to try and catch you in your words or twist them for another purpose.  Seems a good point for multiple uses.

 

And I agree, if one is looking for the path of least resistance to having sex... marriage doesn't seem to be it.  There are much easier ways to have sex.  There was obviously more to it than just that with JS.

Edited September 12, 2013 by Brian 2.0

[MormonMason]

I would find it comforting if Joseph doubted God and was forgiven, even after the first vision.

 

What paper was this?

 

Was Cowdery a friend or foe when he told this story?

 

And was Joseph still alive?

Sorry about not getting to this post in a timely manner.  I was not notified.

 

Yes, Joseph was forgiven of his lapses.

 

The paper, if I recall correctly, was the Messenger and Advocate, 1:78.  You can read a scan of the original page here.  It is at the bottom of page 78 in the left column of text.  Note carefully the words:

 

And it is only necessary for me to say, that while this excitement continued, he continued to call upon the Lord in secret for a full manifestation of divine approbation, and for, to him, the all important information, if a Supreme being did exist, to have an assurance that he was accepted of him.

 

That to me expresses that he had doubts about God's existence that he wanted to lay to rest by hearing from God again, for if God existed he would hear again from him as before.  There would be no other reason for him to note something like that to Oliver Cowdery.  Maybe Oliver Cowdery just slipped that in but Joseph Smith did not correct that statement in a later issue of the paper.  My thinking on this (in combination with a later account) is that, at first, Joseph did not deny what he saw and fully was convicted in his heart that he had actually seen a vision (as stated about that event at the time in the later, official history), but that he afterward was continually worn down by negativity about it, and by the especially bad reaction of a minister he held as a friend, that he actually came to doubt what he saw after a couple years of that, and as a result fell to his old ways.

 

It also would go a long way, in my mind, toward explaining why he did not share his first vision with others until a few years later, and even then with very few.  I think it also explains his hesitance to come out and discuss what the Father said to him and only explicitly mention Jesus Christ's part in that vision, at first, because of all the flack he took for mentioning the Father before.  It would also make understandable as to why he a couple times to non-members referred to Father and Son merely as "two personages" in an account before the 1838-1839 official history.

 

His renewed interest and somewhat reviving faith, of course, I think, was created as a result of the new round of revivals in his area under the same Reverend Lane who was more involved and animated at the revivals than before in the much smaller revivals of Spring of 1820 (a camp meeting in the area had taken place earlier the year of 1820 and in passing was discussed in a July (? IIRC) issue of a Palmyra newspaper).

 

At that time, Cowdery was friend.

 

Joseph was still very much alive and was filling him on details and clarifying certain other things.  You will see from the context of the article that this article cited above actually came as a result of information that Joseph Smith himself had given to Oliver Cowdery by way of correction.

[MormonMason]

You'd be right, but it was rated "R" (yeah, I'll admit as somewhat of a film buff I do occasionally watch them)...does the spirit testify to us that a poignant moment in a rated "R" movie is true?

 

...

Someone I know had a missionary companion who freaked out when the Spirit of the Lord testified to a truth spoken in an Islamic Mosque.  The Spirit will testify of truth.  But some people just get overly emotional about everything that tugs at the heart strings and may not understand the difference between the Spirit and the reactions of the physical body to one's own emotive self.

[MormonMason]

...

 

I don't believe in the "angel with a drawn sword threatening destruction if he didn't obey". That was just a metaphoric emphasis employed to impress the seriousness and sacredness of the shocking thing he was asking impressionable, young, female converts to participate in. JS was not above using such coercion, and that is one of the faults in his character that I deplore. He was far from "righteous" or "perfect", as he admitted himself (without gracing the public with any of the details, and how prudent of him!)....

Or, alternatively, the event was real.  There is precedent for angels with drawn swords in the scriptures.  And, I only know of one person he shared that angel experience with, who was Mary Elizabeth Rollins Lightner.  If you know of others, please list them as well as the details, because I cannot seem to remember any others.

[Questing Beast]

CFR the latter. Because he married multiple wives doesn't make him sexual in the sense you seem to be implying.

The fact that he went after "many wives" is indicator that he was sexual. Oliver Cowdery seemed to think so, referring to the Fanny Alger "marriage" as a "dirty affair", etc....

[Questing Beast]

Those who seek to attempt to put marriage into such a single emotion as sex, do not know much about marriage. When people try to do it with polygamy it is only an attempt to defame.

Not always so. With me it is more disappointment, and wrestling with the revelation that JS was a man with "feet of clay" like any other man. He accomplished great things, but he was also weak as other men. I have no desire or intention of defaming anyone....

[Questing Beast]

And I definitely didn't post it to try and catch you in your words or twist them for another purpose.  Seems a good point for multiple uses.

 

And I agree, if one is looking for the path of least resistance to having sex... marriage doesn't seem to be it.  There are much easier ways to have sex.  There was obviously more to it than just that with JS.

Well obviously. He was also intensely religious, more so in fact, than hounded by physical "urges". But there is nothing defaming or distorting in the explanation that JS was at the same time intensely sexual. His asking about "patriarchal marriage" is evidence. His relationship with Fanny Alger is evidence. His reputation with his multiple wives is evidence (e.g. "I thought you knew Joseph Smith better than that", Eliza R. Snow, iirc, in response to the question, was her marriage to JS only for eternity). Josephine's mother said she was the daughter of the prophet Joseph Smith http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/08-SylviaSessionsLyon.htm So there is ample evidence that sexual relations occurred with plenty of JS's wives. He could not simply go to the local whore house (as detractors have delighted in asserting), since to do so would go totally against his religious convictions. Marriage was the only way to have legitimate sex. He had many, many wives. That is evidence that he considered sex an important thing in his life. That he would not consider it the only important thing in a marriage is so obvious it doesn't require discussion: the "other things" far outweighed the physical, because his metaphysical world was constantly growing as he aged, and by the time of his death exceeded his attachment to the physical world. (E.g. the Nauvoo council minutes, quoted elsewhere on this forum recently, where JS said he would rather be dead tomorrow and the Expositor press destroyed, than have it continue to whip up mobocracy to attack the Saints: this shows, along with his contemporary statements that he was tired and was going to rest a while, etc., that JS by 1844 was willing and ready to be taken away if it was the Lord's will: that is not the sentiment of a randy young man in his prime, making the rounds of his favorite wives to engage in continuous sex....)

Edited September 13, 2013 by Questing Beast

[Questing Beast]

Or, alternatively, the event was real.  There is precedent for angels with drawn swords in the scriptures.  And, I only know of one person he shared that angel experience with, who was Mary Elizabeth Rollins Lightner.  If you know of others, please list them as well as the details, because I cannot seem to remember any others.

I'm pretty sure there was more than one. But how to find it (them)? Google fu? No time at the moment. Regardless, the Balaam's *** story and possibly one or two others from the OT were familiar fare for JS. His religion was very OT based, being part of the "restitution of all things". Anyway, one use of the angel threatening death by drawn sword is enough. He also used the "soul mate in preexistence" ploy, which is equally reprehensible doctrine, imho. Whatever it took to convince the young woman of the moment to agree to the plural marriage....

 

ETA: that was easy: http://www.josephsmithspolygamy.com/MISCFiles/JSKnewPMwasDifficult.html at least two more, although the sword is not specifically stated, the threat of destruction is....

Edited September 13, 2013 by Questing Beast

[Storm Rider]

Wasn't Josephine's daughters linage DNA tested and it proved negative for the progeny being related to JS?

[Calm]

Wasn't Josephine's daughters linage DNA tested and it proved negative for the progeny being related to JS?

No, can't do it for her with current technology

[MormonMason]

The fact that he went after "many wives" is indicator that he was sexual. Oliver Cowdery seemed to think so, referring to the Fanny Alger "marriage" as a "dirty affair", etc....

You left out the part where Joseph Smith was requested to appear before the High Council and explain himself in these matters involving Fanny Alger.  According to the Council he fully explained "the girl business," the Council figured out that everything was OK with Joseph, and Oliver Cowdery ended up admitting that he pretty much was making stuff up and falsely claimed that Joseph Smith had admitted to adultery when he did no such thing.  This was the beginning of Oliver Cowdery's downfall.  See the Far West Record for details.

 

And, if you want to talk many wives, go no further than Solomon.  700 wives and 300 concubines...  By comparison to that about 42 was hardly many wives.  Did he really desire those wives? Not really.  It made his life a living hell, particularly when he had to hide from Emma when she was on the rampage in 1842.

[MormonMason]

I'm pretty sure there was more than one. But how to find it (them)? Google fu? No time at the moment. Regardless, the Balaam's *** story and possibly one or two others from the OT were familiar fare for JS. His religion was very OT based, being part of the "restitution of all things". Anyway, one use of the angel threatening death by drawn sword is enough. He also used the "soul mate in preexistence" ploy, which is equally reprehensible doctrine, imho. Whatever it took to convince the young woman of the moment to agree to the plural marriage....

On the other hand, the "soulmate" business could have been true.  How would you know? Were you there? Were you privy to the inner recesses of Joseph's mind? Sat you on the Divine Council and knew the mind of God at the time? Just say no to all these questions and admit you know neither the mind of God nor a man who now is dead and his circumstances.

[Storm Rider]

No, can't do it for her with current technology

 

All of her descendants were female? I had understood all the allegations of children being from Joseph were tested and all failed the test several years ago. 

 

I am not of the belief that Joseph did not have sexual relations, but I suspect they were far fewer than what some believe and more than others.

Edited September 13, 2013 by Storm Rider

[Questing Beast]

You left out the part where Joseph Smith was requested to appear before the High Council and explain himself in these matters involving Fanny Alger.  According to the Council he fully explained "the girl business," the Council figured out that everything was OK with Joseph, and Oliver Cowdery ended up admitting that he pretty much was making stuff up and falsely claimed that Joseph Smith had admitted to adultery when he did no such thing.  This was the beginning of Oliver Cowdery's downfall.  See the Far West Record for details.

 

And, if you want to talk many wives, go no further than Solomon.  700 wives and 300 concubines...  By comparison to that about 42 was hardly many wives.  Did he really desire those wives? Not really.  It made his life a living hell, particularly when he had to hide from Emma when she was on the rampage in 1842.

Living hell aside, he did marry in excess of 33 women, mostly very young, and a third of them already married. Living hell is an appropriate description. It does not get away from the sexual side of those marriages and is actually beside the point. Also the "adultery" accusation was answered and dropped. But Oliver was not convinced that is wasn't adultery, since he continued to believe that polygamy was wrong....

[Questing Beast]

On the other hand, the "soulmate" business could have been true.  How would you know? Were you there? Were you privy to the inner recesses of Joseph's mind? Sat you on the Divine Council and knew the mind of God at the time? Just say no to all these questions and admit you know neither the mind of God nor a man who now is dead and his circumstances.

All true, and equally in reverse: I don't believe in MULTIPLE soul-mates. End stop. There is ONE, if such exists at all. This business of a man (why not a woman?) being possessed of many "soul-mates" is just so much justification for intimate relations with the latest attraction. It was a mistake for JS to resort to it, whether he believed in it or not....

[MormonMason]

Wasn't Josephine's daughters linage DNA tested and it proved negative for the progeny being related to JS?

It could not be proven with current technology because one of her children (the line being tested) intermarried with a person who had a related, common ancestor of the Smith family.  The rest of the tests conducted on others claimed to be descendants of Joseph Smith showed zero connection to the DNA of Joseph Smith and family.

[cdowis]

Living hell aside, he did marry in excess of 33 women, mostly very young, and a third of them already married.

 

 

Methinks you are pretty loose with your term "married".  He was "married" to women who were "already married".

 

I would like to request a CFR on that one.  Can I assume that you already know that "sealing" is not the same thing as "married", so let's see what you got.

Edited September 13, 2013 by cdowis

[Questing Beast]

DNA testing aside, Josephine's mother knew that JS could have been the father. And it only takes one case to prove sexual relations. To doubt the woman's deathbed confession to her daughter is utterly base....

[Questing Beast]

Methinks you are pretty loose with your term "married".  He was "married" to women who were "already married".

 

I would like to request a CFR on that one.  Can I assume that you already know that "sealing" is not the same thing as "married", so let's see what you got.

In reverse, actually, since JS taught that secular marriage was of no account when the priesthood sealed a man and woman. The earlier secular marriage was no such thing in the eyes of God or the eternities. So genuine "marriage" was only according to JS's definition, and ignored the law of the land entirely, hence the secretive nature of it to avoid infamy and potential prosecution....