Jesus Christ Personal Visits

[MormonMason]

Living hell aside, he did marry in excess of 33 women, mostly very young, and a third of them already married. Living hell is an appropriate description. It does not get away from the sexual side of those marriages and is actually beside the point. Also the "adultery" accusation was answered and dropped. But Oliver was not convinced that is wasn't adultery, since he continued to believe that polygamy was wrong....

You are quite mistaken again.  Most of them were not quite young.  Only a very small handful of them were at all such that could be considered "quite young" and that is not saying much of anything considering happenings on the Frontier in those days.  It was not common for younger women to marry older guys but Joseph was not alone in that.  In fact, if you go back to history you will find a number of men married younger women during those times, and not even among the Mormons.  Are you even aware of what the age of consent was in some states and territories on the Frontier, before laws were recently changed? In a couple states the age of consent was 10 years of age in the good old US of A during the 19th century!  You will find the same in other countries, too, both ancient and modern.  There is even Jewish tradition that Isaac's wife in the Bible was "quite young." The point of even bringing this up at all?

 

Oliver had greater problems than you seem to be aware of at the moment.  There is evidence that Oliver Cowdery was upset because Joseph would not allow him to practice plural marriage after he had been told about it. That he was of the mind that if he couldn't have it he would embarrass Joseph about it.

[Questing Beast]

You are quite mistaken again.  Most of them were not quite young.  Only a very small handful of them were at all such that could be considered "quite young" and that is not saying much of anything considering happenings on the Frontier in those days.  It was not common for younger women to marry older guys but Joseph was not alone in that.  In fact, if you go back to history you will find a number of men married younger women during those times, and not even among the Mormons.  Are you even aware of what the age of consent was in some states and territories on the Frontier, before laws were recently changed? In a couple states the age of consent was 10 years of age in the good old US of A during the 19th century!  You will find the same in other countries, too, both ancient and modern.  There is even Jewish tradition that Isaac's wife in the Bible was "quite young." The point of even bringing this up at all?

 

Oliver had greater problems than you seem to be aware of at the moment.  There is evidence that Oliver Cowdery was upset because Joseph would not allow him to practice plural marriage after he had been told about it. That he was of the mind that if he couldn't have it he would embarrass Joseph about it.

I brought up "quite young" to show that his interest was physical attraction and not just "special spirit" attachment. I consider "quite young" to be all wives of JS that were years younger than himself.

 

Oliver Cowdery's "trouble" was a complex of things, not the least of which was his disappointment in JS. I don't believe that OC wanted to engage in plural marriage at all, aside from the obvious visceral temptation common to the lot of the male. His main break was over his temporal affairs, where he refused to be dictated to in them by the Church or any earthly authority, etc....

[MormonMason]

All true, and equally in reverse: I don't believe in MULTIPLE soul-mates. End stop. There is ONE, if such exists at all. This business of a man (why not a woman?) being possessed of many "soul-mates" is just so much justification for intimate relations with the latest attraction. It was a mistake for JS to resort to it, whether he believed in it or not....

What you believe is irrelevant to the question regarding the practices and beliefs of Joseph and what he believed that God told him and commanded him.  And, it is never wrong to obey God.  "Whatever God requires is right, no matter what is."  That quote sound familiar to you? All the evidence is there that Joseph really believed that it was the will of God to enter into plural marriages.

 

Whether every single instance was correct or not is open to debate but his belief isn't.  He truly believed.  He went to great trouble to set up sham marriages for a number of those that showed up as married in the public records but sealed to him, mainly because the Church was not ready for it, because people were trying to catch him in something that was against the law of the land, and because the time was not right for the whole Church to be opened to the practice.  He was between a rock and a hard place in having to deal with any potential flack that came of the practice as well as dealings with his wife.  And, you say it was a mistake because you disagree with it as a whole.  But you were neither there nor privy to the mind of God concerning this.  Don't pretend that you are.

[MormonMason]

I brought up "quite young" to show that his interest was physical attraction and not just "special spirit" attachment. I consider "quite young" to be all wives of JS that were years younger than himself.

 

Oliver Cowdery's "trouble" was a complex of things, not the least of which was his disappointment in JS. I don't believe that OC wanted to engage in plural marriage at all, aside from the obvious visceral temptation common to the lot of the male. His main break was over his temporal affairs, where he refused to be dictated to in them by the Church or any earthly authority, etc....

Oh please...explain the much older women like Lucy Morgan-Harris and so forth.  Even Emma was older than Joseph was.  And again, that "much younger" business applied to a handful.  The rest were roughly equivalent ages or older.  And define "years younger," anyway.  1 year? 2 years? 3 years? 4 years difference in age? Most would say that is pretty normal.

 

As to Oliver Cowdery, the land issues, counterfeiting, and drumming up lawyering work by causing disputes, came later.  All the evidence I have seen showed that Cowdery was quite angry over this issue with Fanny Alger.  He often jumped the gun and when Joseph was away on business for the conference that determined the contents of the Doctrine and Covenants, Cowdery presented his idea for the section on marriage, which upset Joseph to no end, but the Council and Church had decided and that was that.  It was a ploy to make things more difficult for Joseph, and it ended up causing him to make denials when cornered, that he might not have had to make otherwise.  By the time Cowdery was tossed from the Church, he considered Joseph his mortal enemy.  He would not rejoin the Church, even though invited back by Joseph himself, until a few years after Joseph was dead.  There was some really deep-seated anger there.

 

But, again, consult the Far West Record in-depth.  Try to look at the printed edition as well, for there is much information in the footnotes that you may or may not find of interest.

[Questing Beast]

What you believe is irrelevant to the question regarding the practices and beliefs of Joseph and what he believed that God told him and commanded him.  And, it is never wrong to obey God.  "Whatever God requires is right, no matter what is."  That quote sound familiar to you? All the evidence is there that Joseph really believed that it was the will of God to enter into plural marriages.

 

Whether every single instance was correct or not is open to debate but his belief isn't.  He truly believed.  He went to great trouble to set up sham marriages for a number of those that showed up as married in the public records but sealed to him, mainly because the Church was not ready for it, because people were trying to catch him in something that was against the law of the land, and because the time was not right for the whole Church to be opened to the practice.  He was between a rock and a hard place in having to deal with any potential flack that came of the practice as well as dealings with his wife.  And, you say it was a mistake because you disagree with it as a whole.  But you were neither there nor privy to the mind of God concerning this.  Don't pretend that you are.

I have never said that JS didn't believe he was commanded by God to enter into patriarchal marriage, and teach it to some. Belief is personal, as you say. My belief does not allow for such a thing "from God". I don't believe that "God" ever told JS any such thing. He just didn't prohibit either, knowing all things before their earthly fact, and seeing the LDS faith in the future as a necessary good influence as it is today. JS's notions that made the early Saints extremely "peculiar" is what caused the Church to grow in adversity. That doesn't mean that polygamy is the order of heaven. I won't be going "there" if it is. If we share each other sexually as immortals, then I am out of here. Why wait? But that's just perverse thinking. I don't believe in that kind of physical intimacy between scads of people. I think mental/spiritual intimacy is on all kinds of levels, but only ONE is the genuine spiritual "Soul Mate" and that is "God". My theology and cosmology has gone far in a different direction than that proposed by any of the four great Abrahamic religions....

[Tacenda]

You are quite mistaken again.  Most of them were not quite young.  Only a very small handful of them were at all such that could be considered "quite young" and that is not saying much of anything considering happenings on the Frontier in those days.  It was not common for younger women to marry older guys but Joseph was not alone in that.  In fact, if you go back to history you will find a number of men married younger women during those times, and not even among the Mormons.  Are you even aware of what the age of consent was in some states and territories on the Frontier, before laws were recently changed? In a couple states the age of consent was 10 years of age in the good old US of A during the 19th century!  You will find the same in other countries, too, both ancient and modern.  There is even Jewish tradition that Isaac's wife in the Bible was "quite young." The point of even bringing this up at all?

 

Oliver had greater problems than you seem to be aware of at the moment.  There is evidence that Oliver Cowdery was upset because Joseph would not allow him to practice plural marriage after he had been told about it. That he was of the mind that if he couldn't have it he would embarrass Joseph about it.

I wandered away from the MDDB and went to a place I rarely read but saw that this was mentioned about JS and Helen Mar Kimball, they linked to this.. http://futuremissionary.com/helen-mar-kimball-wife-of-joseph-smith/ ..in it is mentioned the statistics about the marrying age in the 1840's and 1880's. Don't know the accuracy of the study, but think that if I were JS, I would pick carefully the daughter's of God and how it would affect them.

[Questing Beast]

Oh please...explain the much older women like Lucy Morgan-Harris and so forth.  Even Emma was older than Joseph was.  And again, that "much younger" business applied to a handful.  The rest were roughly equivalent ages or older.  And define "years younger," anyway.  1 year? 2 years? 3 years? 4 years difference in age? Most would say that is pretty normal.

 

As to Oliver Cowdery, the land issues, counterfeiting, and drumming up lawyering work by causing disputes, came later.  All the evidence I have seen showed that Cowdery was quite angry over this issue with Fanny Alger.  He often jumped the gun and when Joseph was away on business for the conference that determined the contents of the Doctrine and Covenants, Cowdery presented his idea for the section on marriage, which upset Joseph to no end, but the Council and Church had decided and that was that.  It was a ploy to make things more difficult for Joseph, and it ended up causing him to make denials when cornered, that he might not have had to make otherwise.  By the time Cowdery was tossed from the Church, he considered Joseph his mortal enemy.  He would not rejoin the Church, even though invited back by Joseph himself, until a few years after Joseph was dead.  There was some really deep-seated anger there.

 

But, again, consult the Far West Record in-depth.  Try to look at the printed edition as well, for there is much information in the footnotes that you may or may not find of interest.

To be even more clear: "quite young" is sexually viable, i.e. early to mid thirties and twenties and later teens (I don't believe he had sex with Helen Mar Kimball). JS's older wives are a small minority of the total women.

 

OC's disaffection with JS remained even after he rejoined the Church. But unfinished business was of course impossible to reverse. What OC did not do was rake up old issues of his personal relationship with JS, and he said JS was inspired by God to organize the Church. What I think was going on in OC's mind when he returned is that he wanted to associate with the true portion of the Church, i.e. the pre Nauvoo and Far West period church's doctrines. He wanted to bury the hatchet too. I have read Far West Record and have a copy. But it has been many years....

[Hestia]

Questing Beast is on break from this thread.

[MormonMason]

I wandered away from the MDDB and went to a place I rarely read but saw that this was mentioned about JS and Helen Mar Kimball, they linked to this.. http://futuremissionary.com/helen-mar-kimball-wife-of-joseph-smith/ ..in it is mentioned the statistics about the marrying age in the 1840's and 1880's. Don't know the accuracy of the study, but think that if I were JS, I would pick carefully the daughter's of God and how it would affect them.

The article looks about right.  And, he did pick carefully.   But also note that this was a relationship that was not consummated by Smith when she was so young.  Have you read what happened with Helen Mar Kimball in future, as she got older? She became one of the most vocal supporters of the principle.  She hated it while young but came to accept and fully champion it as she grew, learned, and prayed.  She was very vocal in supporting it once she began to understand it as she did.

 

You can read one of her pamphlets she wrote, here.  I highly recommend it so you can see her perspective on the matter.  You may disagree with her but you will see her sincerity in supporting it and why she did.

[SargentYork]

The article looks about right.  And, he did pick carefully.   But also note that this was a relationship that was not consummated by Smith when she was so young.  Have you read what happened with Helen Mar Kimball in future, as she got older? She became one of the most vocal supporters of the principle.  She hated it while young but came to accept and fully champion it as she grew, learned, and prayed.  She was very vocal in supporting it once she began to understand it as she did.

 

You can read one of her pamphlets she wrote, here.  I highly recommend it so you can see her perspective on the matter.  You may disagree with her but you will see her sincerity in supporting it and why she did.

 

Thank you.

[MormonMason]

Thank you.

You are welcome.  I just wish I could find her other pamphlet online. I still look every once in a while to try to see if more of her writings are posted but not so far.  This one I posted a link to is just additional material supplementing the original pamphlet she wrote and distributed.  The original one has even more great material that every man and woman interested in this subject should read. All people ever hear about these days is about how "yucked out" she was by the whole idea and how she hated this or that aspect of her life because of it.  It is better if you hear it from her how she felt about it as she learned more and began to understand.

[Avatar4321]

I have absolutely no doubt that Christ appears to some. I haven't had that privilege to my knowledge. But then when I finally recognized the Holy Spirit, I realized I had many experiences with Him that I just didnt recognize at the time. I would think it's quite possible that this would be the same.

[SargentYork]

And what exactly makes seeing the Lord a powerful, convincing event? The Spirit bearing witness that it is indeed He, and that He is indeed Saviour and Redeemer.

 

But wouldn't a worthy latter day saint, with the constant companionship of The Holy Ghost, have that witness any time they were blessed with a personal visit?

 

I mean if they have The Holy Ghost inside them, and they see Jesus, wouldn't The Holy Ghost inside them bear witness?

 

So wouldn't a personal visit by Jesus, to a worthy latter day saint, always involve both the evidence of their own eyes, and the internal witness of The Holy Ghost?

 

 

It would be powerful at first but then fade over time. The Holy Ghost makes a more lasting impression. I've spoken with Jesus Christ and heard the voice of the Father but ended up lapsing to inactivity for a time in spite of all of it.

 

But did The Holy Ghost bear witness to Jesus when you were speaking to Him face to face, and didn't that make a lasting impression?

 

Why did you lapse into inactivity after that?

 

IJoseph Smith himself returned to his old ways after seeing Father and Son. According to an account from Oliver Cowdery in a Church newspaper, as told him by Joseph Smith, Joseph even came close to wondering whether there was a God at all until something happened that led him to pray again for another vision and received it.

 

Did you lapse into inactivity because you came to question the reality of what you experienced?

 

Did you come close to wondering whether there was a God?

 

How does this happen after you've seen Him?

[inquiringmind]

I'd still like to know more about that newspaper article by Cowdery.

 

Was it in "Times and Seasons," and did Joseph approve it?

Edited September 15, 2013 by inquiringmind

[MormonMason]

I'd still like to know more about that newspaper article by Cowdery.

 

Was it in "Times and Seasons," and did Joseph approve it?

I already told you about it here.

 

It was The Latter-day Saints' Messenger and Advocate, and yes, Joseph approved it and worked with Cowdery to form and clarify the narrative for that portion of Cowdery's letters detailing the history of the rise of the Church.

Edited September 16, 2013 by MormonMason

[inquiringmind]

I already told you about it here.

 

It was The Latter-day Saints' Messenger and Advocate, and yes, Joseph approved it and worked with Cowdery to form and clarify the narrative for that portion of Cowdery's letters detailing the history of the rise of the Church.

 

Thank you.

[SargentYork]

Someone I know had a missionary companion who freaked out when the Spirit of the Lord testified to a truth spoken in an Islamic Mosque.  The Spirit will testify of truth.  But some people just get overly emotional about everything that tugs at the heart strings and may not understand the difference between the Spirit and the reactions of the physical body to one's own emotive self.

 

What was the truth spoken of and testified to?

[SargentYork]

Oliver had greater problems than you seem to be aware of at the moment.  There is evidence that Oliver Cowdery was upset because Joseph would not allow him to practice plural marriage after he had been told about it. That he was of the mind that if he couldn't have it he would embarrass Joseph about it.

 

Doesn't D&C 132 say that anyone to whom plural marriage was revealed would have to practice it or lose their exaltation?

[SargentYork]

MormonMason, on 09 Sept 2013 - 03:17 AM, said:

It would be powerful at first but then fade over time. The Holy Ghost makes a more lasting impression. I've spoken with Jesus Christ and heard the voice of the Father but ended up lapsing to inactivity for a time in spite of all of it.

 

But did The Holy Ghost bear witness to Jesus when you were speaking to Him face to face, and didn't that make a lasting impression?

 

How does one lapse into inactivity after something like that?

 

Do the chores of daily living just kind of push it out of you consciousness until it's almost forgoten?

 

Do you try to share the experience with people who think you're crazy, and does their skepticism just kind of wear you down until you begin to doubt what you know you saw (somewhat the way I think you suggested Rev. Lane's skepticism may have eaten away at Joseph faith, until he needed another miraculous visitation.)

 

I don't mean to offend you, and I'm not trying to judge you, but can you tell us anything about how you personally went from speaking to Jesus in person, to lapsing into inactivity (so that we might avoid doing the same thing if He should ever appear to us)?

 

MormonMason, on 09 Sept 2013 - 03:17 AM, said:

IJoseph Smith himself returned to his old ways after seeing Father and Son. According to an account from Oliver Cowdery in a Church newspaper, as told him by Joseph Smith, Joseph even came close to wondering whether there was a God at all until something happened that led him to pray again for another vision and received it.

 

Did you lapse into inactivity because you came to question the reality of what you experienced?

 

Did you come close to wondering whether there was a God?

 

How does this happen after you've seen Him?