First Presidency Statement On Hill Cumorah, Or Not?

[Tiki]

The setting is based on science. Joseph's opinions varied because he did not know and it is not a doctrinal matter. Prophets teach gospel principles and they do not concern themselves with geography and palaeontology. I realize that  you are pretending to be a member of the church to find some way show us we are wrong but your arguments are flawed. You consistently ignore the evidence presented to  you and you feel you are somehow making us look silly. But you, ultimately, are the one who is looking silly. It is rather tedious responding to someone who constantly ignores the evidence and misrepresents what others are saying.

I am a member of the LDS Church. But it's obvious you're no scriptorian. For if you were, you would know the role of a prophet.

You would know that each major prophet called to the head of each Gospel Dispensation, and others, receive a revelation of the creation and history of the world. Nephi, John the Revelator, The Brother of Jared, Enoch, Moses, Abraham, etc.

As an example, the Brother of Jared was commanded to write his then to seal it up. Not one Jaredite knew of this sealed revelation, as recorded in the scriptures, until it was revealed and translated by a Nephite seer, and a later Nephite Prophet Seer and Revelator (Helaman) who was told by his father, Alma to also reveal only a portion of it.

Another example is Nephi, who was told to stop writing what he was given because was given to John to write it. 1 Nephi 14:25-27.

Please carefully note verse 26.

For you or any LDS Apologist to claim the Prophet Joseph Smith did not know what he was talking about, is to claim he did not have a similar vision and was also told to seal it up so that it would come forth at the last day or day of judgment, to prove to all men that he knew what he was talking about, be it any subject he may have ever touched upon.

[canard78]

You seem to be connecting the dots. But out of curiosity, which do you feel are not good advice:

1. The prophet is the only man who speaks for the Lord in everything.

2. The living prophet is more vital to us than the standard works.

3. The living prophet is more important to us than a dead prophet.

4. The prophet will never lead the church astray.

5. The prophet is not required to have any particular earthly training or credentials to speak on any subject or act on any matter at any time.

6. The prophet does not have to say “Thus Saith the Lord,” to give us scripture.

7. The prophet tells us what we need to know, not always what we want to know.

8. The prophet is not limited by men’s reasoning.

9. The prophet can receive revelation on any matter, temporal or spiritual.

10. The prophet may advise on civic matters.

11. The two groups who have the greatest difficulty in following the prophet are the proud who are learned and the proud who are rich.

12. The prophet will not necessarily be popular with the world or the worldly.

13. The prophet and his counselors make up the First Presidency—the highest quorum in the Church.

14. The prophet and the presidency—the living prophet and the First Presidency—follow them and be blessed—reject them and suffer.

 

An extended discussion of the 14 fundamentals on this thread would be far off topic. If you'd like to discuss them I'm happy to, but on another thread.

 

I've already mentioned the ones I have the greatest issue with in this thread:

 

http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/61119-prophet-and-church-paradigms-expectations-and-anomaly/page-2#entry1209272513

 

Feel free to come back to me in that thread and reply to that post if you want to discuss it further. I consider Kevin's opening post on that thread to be essential reading for understanding the 14 fundamentals and am very happy to give that thread a bump.

[cursor]

You were offended by a child? 

 

Only if you are in fact a child.

I suspect, however, that you are a full grown adult who thinks and verbally projects like a 14 year old.

[Bob Crockett]

Only if you are in fact a child.

I suspect, however, that you are a full grown adult who thinks and verbally projects like a 14 year old.

I don't think so.   He may be a sock puppet for a Banned One, but he's just repeating in his way the position that a MesoAmerican theory of the Book of Mormon runs afoul of decades of teachings from the Brethren that say soemthing else.  I'd say that most of the members of the Church think that the final battle of the Jaredites and the Nephites occurred in New York, and that the Book of Mormon community swept north and south America.

 

It isn't childish to believe that.  It's rather orthodox.  

 

He also challenges the view that "science" supports a MesoAmercian-centric view of the Book of Mormon. I think that most Mormons believe that science has nothing to do with the location of the Book of Mormon events.   

[cursor]

What can I say but LOL, Bob.

[Freedom]

I am a member of the LDS Church. But it's obvious you're no scriptorian. For if you were, you would know the role of a prophet.

You would know that each major prophet called to the head of each Gospel Dispensation, and others, receive a revelation of the creation and history of the world. Nephi, John the Revelator, The Brother of Jared, Enoch, Moses, Abraham, etc.

As an example, the Brother of Jared was commanded to write his then to seal it up. Not one Jaredite knew of this sealed revelation, as recorded in the scriptures, until it was revealed and translated by a Nephite seer, and a later Nephite Prophet Seer and Revelator (Helaman) who was told by his father, Alma to also reveal only a portion of it.

Another example is Nephi, who was told to stop writing what he was given because was given to John to write it. 1 Nephi 14:25-27.

Please carefully note verse 26.

For you or any LDS Apologist to claim the Prophet Joseph Smith did not know what he was talking about, is to claim he did not have a similar vision and was also told to seal it up so that it would come forth at the last day or day of judgment, to prove to all men that he knew what he was talking about, be it any subject he may have ever touched upon.

Ok, why don't you provide me the references that prove your claim that every prophet at the start of a dispensation has a vision of the creation of the world and that this vision provides dates, locations, names and so forth. Joseph DID have visions of the Nephite people but I could see the inside of your house on a webcam and still have no idea where on the planet or when in time the images were recorded. This is such a ridiculous claim. The evidence is overwhelming that Joseph did not know where the events took place, we have provided you with multiple examples of his comments and you continue to pretend that they just don't exist. You just patently ignore every piece of evidence that contradicts your own. There is a difference between not knowing what he was talking about and not knowing where something is.

 

Nowhere in Ether 3 does it suggest that he saw what you claim he saw. Nor in 1 Nephi 14. Nephi had a vision of the Savior, a vision that would be recorded by John the Revelator. A record which we have. I assure you that Revelation does not provide a play by play of the creation of the world that can be used by the scientific community to advise us where and when Adam lived or any other historical facts.

 

Now please, respond to the many many references we have provided that contradict your unsubstantiated opinion.

[webbles]

I'd say that most of the members of the Church think that the final battle of the Jaredites and the Nephites occurred in New York, and that the Book of Mormon community swept north and south America.

I'm not sure about that statement.  The Tennis Shoes among the Nephites was pretty popular and it had the Nephites in Mesoamerica.

[Freedom]

 

He also challenges the view that "science" supports a MesoAmercian-centric view of the Book of Mormon. I think that most Mormons believe that science has nothing to do with the location of the Book of Mormon events.   

This comment does not make any sense. Do you have some research that supports this? I have never heard mention by anyone at any time that the events of the Book of Mormon exist outside of time and space as we know it. If what you are saying is true, then we should be looking on the moon or at the bottom of the pacific ocean rather than in real world locations.

[escott3564]

I certainly have strong views about what it means when an organization something says something like said in this "letter," but I'd rather reserve my comments until it can be authenticated or disproved.  No sense getting into a dispute over what the letter means until my question is answered.  I'm not going to support a fraud or an RLDS statement.

 

I probably am not going to get an answer on this board, because an answer may not exist, and I will have to continue to suspect that it is not legit.

It is an interesting question.  I wonder how one would go finding out about its legitimacy.

[Tiki]

Only if you are in fact a child.

I suspect, however, that you are a full grown adult who thinks and verbally projects like a 14 year old.

Hey there! Been awhile. How's it going Brother Mormon.

 

I noticed you chose age 14. Joseph Smith offended quite a few 'learned' people when he was 14. I guess you were inspired to choose that age.

Statements by Joseph Smith, when over age 14, regarding Book of Mormon events in North America, also offends, as noted, LDS LGT-Apologists.

But you know all about that. Just hilarious you chose age 14.

[Tiki]

Ok, why don't you provide me the references that prove your claim that every prophet at the start of a dispensation has a vision of the creation of the world and that this vision provides dates, locations, names and so forth. Joseph DID have visions of the Nephite people but I could see the inside of your house on a webcam and still have no idea where on the planet or when in time the images were recorded. This is such a ridiculous claim. The evidence is overwhelming that Joseph did not know where the events took place, we have provided you with multiple examples of his comments and you continue to pretend that they just don't exist. You just patently ignore every piece of evidence that contradicts your own. There is a difference between not knowing what he was talking about and not knowing where something is.

 

Nowhere in Ether 3 does it suggest that he saw what you claim he saw. Nor in 1 Nephi 14. Nephi had a vision of the Savior, a vision that would be recorded by John the Revelator. A record which we have. I assure you that Revelation does not provide a play by play of the creation of the world that can be used by the scientific community to advise us where and when Adam lived or any other historical facts.

 

Now please, respond to the many many references we have provided that contradict your unsubstantiated opinion.

 

Oh please. (MD&D apparently is a site for LDS Members who don't study scritpure.)

 

Moses 1:27-28. How's that for a start? Do you need a link to it? Page number?

 

How about the account of the Lord putting his hand over the eyes of Abraham. Nah. I guess you don't remember that either.

Thus you need dates and times. Hilarious.

I suppose a vision of the World and it's inhabitants, discerned by the Spirit, requires for you for it to have dates and times.

I'm sure if Joseph Smith had a similar vision, the Lord left out the Nephites and Jaredites and their short time frames, just for him.

 

Ok. This proves the Mesoamerica Theory is correct. Congratulations. Revel in your success: Joseph Smith didn't know what he talked about it. He just made stuff up.

[Calm]

Statements by Joseph Smith, when over age 14, regarding Book of Mormon events in North America, also offends, as noted, LDS LGT-Apologists....

Right.......

[Tiki]

Right.......

 

You've never read articles at the MI about this?

 

To be brief:

 

"This view further held that Lehi₁ and his party landed in South America, and that the final battle of the Nephites and Lamanites took place in New York, at which time Moroni₂ deposited his plates at the battle site that they considered to be the " hill Cumorah" near Joseph Smith's home. While the statements that exist from early Saints about geography fail to spell out this model transparently, all that is said is consistent with the idea that this is what they believed. It is plausible that Smith and his associates assumed this interpretation of the geography from their first reading of the Nephite account and for years failed to imagine there could be an alternative."

http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/books/?bookid=41&chapid=196

 

Executive Summary of the offensive view held by Joseph Smith:

 

"This view" ... "fail to spell out this model transparently" ... "for years [he] failed to imagine there could be an alternative."

 

The same spirit can be found as recorded in Helaman 16:16-18.

 

And in the Pearl of Great Price:

 

I took occasion to give him an account of the vision which I had had. I was greatly surprised at his behavior; he treated my communication not only lightly, but with great contempt, saying it was all of the devil, that there were no such things as ^avisions or ^brevelations in these days; that all such things had ceased with the apostles, and that there would never be any more of them.

 22 I soon found, however, that my telling the story had excited a great deal of prejudice against me among professors of geography

LOL.

Edited September 17, 2013 by Tiki

[webbles]

Oh please. (MD&D apparently is a site for LDS Members who don't study scritpure.)

 

Moses 1:27-28. How's that for a start? Do you need a link to it? Page number?

 

How about the account of the Lord putting his hand over the eyes of Abraham. Nah. I guess you don't remember that either.

Thus you need dates and times. Hilarious.

I suppose a vision of the World and it's inhabitants, discerned by the Spirit, requires for you for it to have dates and times.

I'm sure if Joseph Smith had a similar vision, the Lord left out the Nephites and Jaredites and their short time frames, just for him.

 

Ok. This proves the Mesoamerica Theory is correct. Congratulations. Revel in your success: Joseph Smith didn't know what he talked about it. He just made stuff up.

Just to point out but those references only talk about those specific prophets.  You said that "every major prophet called to the head of each Gospel Dispensation, and others, receive a revelation of the creation and history of the world."  Where's the reference to support that?  Yes, we have records from a few of them but that doesn't mean all of them.

[Bob Crockett]

It is an interesting question.  I wonder how one would go finding out about its legitimacy.

It is a simple matter of going to the UofU or HBLee library, pull the source from the Manti Messenger, and display it here.  But, since I live in California, that will have to wait.  But it will be done.