What Are Some Theories As To How The City Moroni In The Comoros Islands Got Its Name?

[AndyDnom]

Was the legend of Moroni known worldwide? Did it make its way to Africa? Was it the ships of Hagoth?

 

How did the island Commoras get their name? How did Moroni, its capitol, get its name? Any history buffs know the answer?

[Robert F. Smith]

Was the legend of Moroni known worldwide? Did it make its way to Africa? Was it the ships of Hagoth?

 

How did the island Commoras get their name? How did Moroni, its capitol, get its name? Any history buffs know the answer?

The Comoros Islands name comes from Arabic Juzur al-Qumur “Islands of the Moon” (Arabic al-Qumuri > qamar, qamara “moon”)

Moroni, the capital city, Muruni “In the Heart of the Fire,” referring to nearby active volcano Mount Karthala.

 

Could Joseph Smith have known of them?  FAIRMORMON pretty much puts that puppy to bed, online at http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon/Plagiarism_accusations/Comoros_Islands_and_Moroni .

[blooit]

I'm not sure, but there are enough "cognates of chance" out there that one name doesn't getting me excited.  I worked near the cite of "Lamani" in Belize/Guatemala - and it had nothing to do with Laman.  It was a spanish given name for the site.  After a few dozen actual cognates, I start to get excited.  

[Wiki Wonka]

I'm not sure, but there are enough "cognates of chance" out there that one name doesn't getting me excited.  I worked near the cite of "Lamani" in Belize/Guatemala - and it had nothing to do with Laman.  It was a spanish given name for the site.  After a few dozen actual cognates, I start to get excited.  

 

According to Wikipedia, the site's name is not Spanish and pre-dates the Spanish arrival:

 

"Lamanai (from Lama'anayin, "submerged crocodile" in Yucatec Maya) is a Mesoamerican archaeological site, and was once a considerably sized city of the Maya civilization, located in the north of Belize, in Orange Walk District. The site's name is pre-Columbian, recorded by early Spanish missionaries, and documented over a millennium earlier in Maya inscriptions as Lam'an'ain."

[Duncan]

There was a dance teacher in my city who has the last name Moroni but it's pronounced "Moro-knee" so it isn't exclusive to our Church

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Lee_Moroni

[cdowis]

I worked near the cite of "Lamani" [sic]in Belize/Guatemala - and it had nothing to do with Laman.  It was a spanish given name for the site.

 

You have been corrected but you are correct that the spanish made a slight change to the name.  It would help if you spelled it correctly and did a google search.

 

Anyway the BOM tells us that cities are named after the person who founded the city, and we have an interesting "coincidence" that we have a king of the Lamanites with the same name.  Of all the mesoamerican cities, JS just happened to use the name of a city which had one of the very few authentic names.

Edited October 4, 2014 by cdowis

[Robert F. Smith]

The name Laman shows up several times in Maya contexts: Laman Cahuil is the brother of Tubal Ahau at Dos Pilos, and his name appears there on a couple of stairways (Nat’l Geographic).#  He is also called King K’inich Laman Ek’ at Motul de San Jose (near Tikal) – there he is shown on a throne on a polychrome vessel, which can been seen in color at http://www.mayainfo.org/kerr/kerr.asp?page=31&picture=3&link=1728  .

The place-names Lamanai, Belize (related to nearby La Milpa, according to Norman Hammond), and Lamantán, Chiapas, Mexico, on the road north of Comitan de Dominguez, ought also to pique our interest.*  Since Laman and Lamoni are major personal and place-names in the Book of Mormon, this should be of more than passing interest, not to mention the appearance of something like Book of Mormon Tubaloth (and biblical Tubal-Cain).  More remotely, does Napuctun, the first Maya prophet and priest (yax ah bovat, and yax ah kin), mentioned in the Chilam Balam of Chumayel (60),** compare well to Nephi?  Do such names appear even earlier in Mesomerican tradition and inscriptions?  As, for example, in the newly discovered preclassic Maya inscriptions at San Bartolo?

 

#   La-ma-na-hi k’awiil-la = Laman Cahuil (on Dos Pilos Hieroglyphic Stairway 2, East Section, Step VI, and Stairway 4, Step II, Feb 7, 648 A.D. =9.10.15.4.9), and Tuub’al = Tubal (on Dos Pilos Stela 22, Dec 9, 693 A.D. = 9.13.1.13.14),  the suggestion being that the glyph for Laman is a stylized version of a glyph which appears several times in the horizontal Anthon Transcript.  See photos of these Dos Pilos glyphs at http://www.mesoweb.com  .

*  My thanks to Dr. Richard De Long for pointing out all these Laman comparisons to me.  However, it has been suggested that lam’an’ain is a Classic Maya phrase meaning “(place of) submerged crocodile” (Scott Simmons, The Lamanai Archaeological Project, Lamanai, Belize [2003] , cited online at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archaeology_and_the_Book_of_Mormon#_note-98).

**  Gordon Brotherston, “Continuity in Maya Writing: New Readings of Two Passages in the Book of Chilam Balam of Chumayel,” in Hammond & Willey, Maya Archaeology & Ethnohistory, 252, mentioned along with Merchise [Melchisedek?], as the first sage (yax ah miatz).

Edited October 4, 2014 by Robert F. Smith

[Robert F. Smith]

There was a dance teacher in my city who has the last name Moroni but it's pronounced "Moro-knee" so it isn't exclusive to our Church

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Lee_Moroni

Moroni is also an Italian name, and there have been several Roman Catholic bishops by that name.

 

The source is probably the 14th century Old French moronne, morone, which is derived in turn from more, maure, "dark; Moorish" (see The Oxford English Dictionary).  This is also the source of Spanish moreno “dark.” However, that is not the end of the etymology (which is ultimately Semitic), and Spain was ruled by the Muslim Moors for about 500 years.  Thus, the Saracen Moors (Arabic Maghreb/ Marrakesh/ Morocco “West”; transliterated in Latin Maurus = Greek Mauros) are themselves named for their swarthy complexions.

 

Moron is also the name of cities in western Mongolia and in southern Spain, and Camorra is the name of an Italian criminal syndicate centered in Naples, which now has a global reach (see “The Dark Trade,” PBS-TV [National Geographic, 2008]).

[tonie]

wikipedia

Moroni was founded by Arabic settlers, possibly during the 10th century, as the capital of a sultanate connected commercially to Zanzibar in Tanzania.[

[blooit]

Mayan writing is not phonetic, so place names are either rendered as an approximation by the Spanish, or carried by oral tradition. Either way, I think the connection is unlikely at best. There are too many strong correlations to base much on non-phonetic place names in mesoamerica. Just mho.

[cdowis]

Yeah, you can put a square peg in a round hole if you are really determined.

[Robert F. Smith]

Mayan writing is not phonetic, so place names are either rendered as an approximation by the Spanish, or carried by oral tradition. Either way, I think the connection is unlikely at best. There are too many strong correlations to base much on non-phonetic place names in mesoamerica. Just mho.

Lengthy Maya texts, such as the nine books of Chilam Balam , the Annals of the Cakchiquels, the Popol Vuh, etc., are written in phonetic Latin characters.  In addition to that, we have numerous Maya dialects which are well-known and provide excellent phonetic equivalents for many of the glyphs which are found in Classical period Maya inscriptions.  Many of the specific Mesoamerican place-names were recorded by the Conquistadores and have continued to be part of local tribal lore since that time.

 

Not only are your premises false, blooit, but you seem to be completely unaware of the extensive work done by anthropologists to reconstruct the detailed history and Classical language of the Maya.  You might want to read some of that work, as in David Freidel and Linda Schele, A Forest of Kings: The Untold Story of the Ancient Maya (William Morrow, 1992).   Linda Schele, David Freidel, and Joy Parker, Maya Cosmos: Three Thousand Years on the Shaman's Path (William Morrow, 1993).  Michael D. Coe, Breaking the Maya Code, 3^rd ed. (Thames & Hudson, 2012).  They are, by the way, not Mormons.

[blooit]

Lol - I have read every one of those books and have a masters degree in mesoamerican archaeology from BYU and a bachelors degree in linguistics. Further, you just restated my post with slightly different phrasing.

It is good to look for confirmational evidence in archaeology, but we must be careful about seeing a baptismal font in every hole in the ground and a cognate in every similar sounding name. I'm just saying I'm not convinced yet. Like all good archaeologist I need more data.

Edited October 5, 2014 by blooit

[Freedom]

I often here people criticize Andrew Loyd Weber for stealing his tunes from other artists. In music, there are 7 notes to choose from and just three primary chords. After some 400 years of printed music, it simply is not possible to come up with an original melody. Just a new creative way to present the melody. 

 

We have 26 letters and just 5 vowels in most Latin based languages. That does not give a lot of options for uniqueness. 

[Robert F. Smith]

Lol - I have read every one of those books and have a masters degree in mesoamerican archaeology from BYU and a bachelors degree in linguistics. Further, you just restated my post with slightly different phrasing.

It is good to look for confirmational evidence in archaeology, but we must be careful about seeing a baptismal font in every hole in the ground and a cognate in every similar sounding name. I'm just saying I'm not convinced yet. Like all good archaeologist I need more data.

Glad to see that we are somehow converging.

 

Here's some more data, which you'll note does not deal with baptismal fonts in every hole in the ground:

 

Smith, Robert F., “The Role of Cyclical Fatalism Among the Maya,” 2011, online at 

http://www.scribd.com/lighthorseharry/d/74773355-Cyclic-Fatalism-Among-the-Maya .

 

Smith, Robert F., “*Sawi-Zaa,” 2011 version 2, online at 

http://www.scribd.com/lighthorseharry/d/56696298-SAWI-ZAA .

 

Is that the kind of data you are talking about?

[blooit]

" Cyclical Fatalism" sounds like an awesome concept, but I fail to see what this has to do with place names.  Let's look at Lamani (or Lamanai).  Here are the assumptions I think you would have to accept in order to believe the site name is linked to Laman (any Lamanite Laman).

 

1) That the name Laman continued on from 600 B.C. to 400 A.D. without any significant changes in pronunciation. Also, that the dramatic changes in language that appear to have occurred among both the Lamanties - and possibly the Nephites (as they merged with the Mulekites) didn't impact that pronunciation.

 

2) That the Lamanites pronounced "Laman" very closely to how the Nephites did, even after 1000 years of separation.

 

3)  That that name then continued on for another 1200 years until the Spanish arrived, again without any significant changes in pronunciation.

 

4) That after as much as 2200 years of wars, language "corruption," and pandemic diseases, the Mayan remnants then assigned the same name to the city that was used 2 millennia before and accurately communicated that to the Spanish.  (Which also happens to mean submerged crocodile)

 

5) That the spanish then transcribed that name into roman characters so that the similarities still exist.

 

Alma is a character in the Book of Mormon.  Alma also means "soul" in spanish.  This doesn't mean that the Spanish had some connection with the Book of Mormon.  It just means that they are similar words.  We might find some evidence later that Alma the Younger visited Spain, but I doubt it.  

 

I guess my main point is that we have to be very careful using place names, even when transcribed by the Spanish, because of the almost 1200 years that exist between the end of BOM times and the conquest, because of the natural tendency of languages to change, and because Mayan is not a phonetic form of writing.

 

(edit - haven't read the second article that looks like it might deal with place names a little more - will get back to you then )

Edited October 5, 2014 by blooit

[blooit]

I'm mostly addressing Lamanai, but making it sound like I'm talking about Moroni. I stand by my claim that we should be careful about putting too much credibility on similar sounding words, but don't know enough to make a judgement on Moroni / Cumoras.

[rameumptom]

We had a discussion on this about 20 years ago on the SAMU-L list.  I wrote about it here at my website: http://rameumptom.weebly.com/comoros.html

 

Here is the discussion on it:

Did Joseph Smith copy the names Moroni and Cumorah?

The Problem:
On one anti-LDS Web site resides the claim that Joseph Smith got the names Cumorah and Moroni from the Comoros Islands, near Madagascar, off the South-east coast of Africa. Moroni is the capital city of the Islands, and brings up a big question as to whether Joseph Smith copied them or not.  This question was submitted to the Studies in Ancient Mormonism email list (SAMU-L), and the following information came from the discussion.

Many thanks to Martin Raish, Gordon Thomasson, William Hamblin and Jim Larsen for their scholarly input, for what could have been a strong argument against Mormonism has actually become a strong argument FOR Mormonism!

First off, what are the Comoros Islands?
"The Comorro islands, four in number, lie about midway between the northern part of Madagascar, and the continent of Africa." (A New System of Modern Geography, or a View of the Present State of The World . . ._ by Sidney E. Morse, Boston, 1822, page 598).  Today, they are settled primarily by Muslims.

Did Joseph have a Gazeteer/Map with this Info?
Could Joseph have gotten the names Cumorah and Moroni from this place? Very unlikely.  Of several tomes available in Joseph's day checked, few mentioned the Comorros islands, and none mentioned the town of Moroni (see footnote). Why not? Because Moroni became the capital of the Grand Comoros island only in 1876 (32 years after Joseph's death and 47 years after the publishing of the Book of Mormon), when Sultan Sa'id Ali settled there. At that time it was only a small settlement. Even a century later, in1958, it's population was only 6500.

So far, it looks like the the names Cumorah/Comoros and Moroni possibly came from a similar ancestry in the Middle East, since Joseph could not have gotten the name Moroni from any source.  But it goes farther than that!

The Name Game
The name Moroni is Italian as a name in Shi-Ngazija. One similar word here or there does not make a powerful argument against Mormonism. What is important are large patterns of parallels of many words. Considering there are a large number of parallels between the Book Of Mormon and Hebrew words and grammar is far more significant than a single parallel. Indeed, even if one is impressed by Cumorah/Comoros parallel, it still remains to explain the Semitic and other Near Eastern parallels. The key is which one does the Book of Mormon parallel closest?

The Polynesian Factor
Madagascar is the major westernmost extension of the Malayo-Polynesian language family. Migrants from Indonesia sailed there about 2,000 years ago or so.  They brought with them many foods, music (and musical instruments), traditions and their language.

As Dr. Gordon Thomassen then asks us:
"Did my friendly neighborhood ocean- going outrigger Malayo-Polynesian Malagasy friends name the Islands or contribute to their language? Or is it Arabic? Or, or, or.  People moved all over that world, long before the Ming treasure fleets....let your mind expand to the worldview of Malayo-Polynesian peoples who navigated by the seat of their pants (almost literally), all the way from the coast of South America to the east coast of Africa."

Why is this important? 
Because the Book of Mormon teaches that circa 55 B.C., some of its people, led by a man named Hagoth, left the Americas in ships to settle far away places, and they were never heard from again!  (see Alma 63:5-.  In Joseph's day, and even in our day, the idea of early world travel was not conceivable. Remember, many thought in Columbus' day that sea monsters would destroy ships, or at least those ships which didn't fall off the edge of the world!

To consider such travel 1500 years before such an event as the discovery of the New World by Europeans was foolhardy and unbelievable. Yet, the archaeological record shows that it occurred!

Another Weak Theory Bites the Dust!
Given the evidence, Joseph Smith couldn't have known that Moroni was a town on the Comoros Islands. In fact, odds are he didn't even know the Comoros Islands existed!

Whether the names Comoros/Cumorah and Moroni come from the Arabic language or from Polynesian/South America travelers, we don't know. What we do know, is either of these answers strengthens the story of the Book of Mormon as being valid and truthful.

So, on behalf of all truth seekers out in the world today, I would like to thank those on anti-LDS websites for helping us research this and come up with another strong evidence of the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon!

Gazeteers of Joseph's Day and what they said concerning Comoros and Moroni:

Mucullock's Universal Gazateer, 2 vols (1843-4), 2257 pages of double columned miniscule print. no reference to Comoros Islands or Moroni
Morris' Universal Gazateer 1821 (831 pp), no mention of either
Brookes Gazateer:
1794 ed = Comora on p. 400
1819 ed = Comora
1835 ed = Comoro p 214
1843 ed = Comoro 
no mention of a city called Moroni.

[Robert F. Smith]

I'm mostly addressing Lamanai, but making it sound like I'm talking about Moroni. I stand by my claim that we should be careful about putting too much credibility on similar sounding words, ....................................................................

I certainly agree, blooit.  We need to be far more systematic in our arguments for or against this or that linguistic correlation.  That is always true.

[Robert F. Smith]

" Cyclical Fatalism" sounds like an awesome concept, but I fail to see what this has to do with place names.

I thought that your comment on the need for data was generic in nature, so I provided some scholarly data for your perusal.  To my mind, such data are prior to any other considerations.  In line with basic research.  You claim to have an interest in such data at the graduate level.  And you claim to be familiar with the literature.  Thus, I was sure that you would see the value and priority of such data.  If we only look at Mesoamerica in order to prove some specific point, wouldn't that strike you as a flawed approach?

 

.....................................................................................................

I guess my main point is that we have to be very careful using place names, even when transcribed by the Spanish, because of the almost 1200 years that exist between the end of BOM times and the conquest, because of the natural tendency of languages to change, and because Mayan is not a phonetic form of writing.

 

(edit - haven't read the second article that looks like it might deal with place names a little more - will get back to you then )

I couldn't agree more, although much of what you say leading up to that conclusion seems off base -- including your repeatedly false notion that "Mayan writing is not a phonetic form of writing."  Had you specified Maya hieroglyphic writing you would be correct, but we already dealt with your false notion for some major Mayan books in Latin characters.

 

You are also apparently unfamiliar with the way in which archeologists, historians, and linguists actually establish the names and identities of ancient sites.  A fine example of how that is to be done is contained in Yohanan Aharoni, The Land of the Bible: A Historical Geography, 2nd ed. (Westminster Press, 1962).  All of the problems of linguistic transformations over time (which you mention) are dealt with masterfully.  You ought to be able to extrapolate from such a classic work to the questions you have for Mesoamerican names.  And I am fully in favor of someone who is very skeptical doing the work.  I see no value in pro-Mormons poisoning the wells (inadvertantly) by making by-gosh-and-by-golly correlations.  But I also see no value in off-hand dismissal without adequate information (data).

Edited October 8, 2014 by Robert F. Smith