Slow Church

[CV75]

I don't know, I am not a Catholic, but this Pope has impressed me so far, and he seems to be touching the hearts of Catholics and nonCatholics.

More power to him!

[mfbukowski]

There is one common denominator regarding every single Catholic who has left the Church that the pope's non-Catholic promoters don't seem to recognize. They have stopped believing the teachings of the Catholic Church. This kind of talk doesn't make anybody have a reconversion and never will. It will be as ineffective and forgotten in twenty years as John Paul II's "Springtime of Evangelization". All this slow, soft, sentimental slop does is make non-Catholics hope the pope is thinking about reevaluating traditional doctrine and morals. But its just talk. The teachings will not change.

I happily greet every visitor I can at the parish. It is a joy to me to thank visitors for coming and to let them know they are very welcome. But that only goes so far if they disagree with church teaching. Non-Catholics don't believe anymore. That's all. There aren't a bunch of former Catholics and non-Catholics out there saying to themselves how much they agree with the Catholic Church, but they're not going anymore because the Church is "too fast", or "won't go on the journey" with them. IF you believe, the Church is a cradle to grave institution that gives comfort and solace, joy and hope, but not if you've stopped believing. Its just unrealistic to think Catholics can start "opening up" or "slowing down" (whatever that means) and that will make the secular West start going to Mass again. I am all for "slow church" if it means silence and contemplation in the Mass. I intend to continue to go out of my way to be friendly and caring. But I am getting older and I don't want to waste any more time believing in impractical and unrealistic pipe dreams.

3DOP

Sensus Fidelium

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sensus_fidelium

The entire body of the faithful, anointed as they are by the Holy One, cannot err in matters of belief. They manifest this special property by means of the whole people's supernatural discernment in matters of faith when "from the Bishops down to the last of the lay faithful" they show universal agreement in matters of faith and morals. That discernment in matters of faith is aroused and sustained by the Spirit of truth. It is exercised under the guidance of the sacred teaching authority, in faithful and respectful obedience to which the people of God accepts that which is not just the word of men but truly the word of God.^[5]

It declared that Christ fulfils his prophetic office "not only through the hierarchy who teach in His name and with His authority, but also through the laity whom He made His witnesses and to whom He gave understanding of the faith [sensus fidei] and an attractiveness in speech so that the power of the Gospel might shine forth in their daily social and family life.^[6]

Independent of Church magisterium

In a speech to the International Theological Commission on 7 December 2012, Pope Benedict XVI distinguished between the authentic meaning of sensus fidei and a counterfeit understanding: "It is certainly not a kind of public ecclesial opinion, and invoking it in order to contest the teachings of the Magisterium would be unthinkable, since the sensus fidei cannot be authentically developed in believers, except to the extent in which they fully participate in the life of the Church, and this demands responsible adherence to the Magisterium, to the deposit of faith.^[7]

This distinction was expressed also by the Second Vatican Council in the passage quoted above, in which it states that the discernment of the faithful in matters of faith and morals "is exercised under the guidance of the sacred teaching authority, in faithful and respectful obedience to which the people of God accepts that which is not just the word of men but truly the word of God".^[5]

What may be a contrary view is expressed in an article by the editorial staff of New Catholic Reporter: "Blessed John Henry Newman said that there are three magisteria in the church: the bishops, the theologians and the people. On the issue of women's ordination, two of the three voices have been silenced, which is why the third voice must now make itself heard... Our message is that we believe the sensus fidelium is that the exclusion of women from the priesthood has no strong basis in Scripture or any other compelling rationale; therefore, women should be ordained. We have heard the faithful assent to this in countless conversations in parish halls, lecture halls and family gatherings. It has been studied and prayed over individually and in groups."^[8]

Forty years ago, I might have been on your side, but it's not going back

[CV75]

"For what it's worth": Our temple presidency is celebrating the positive impact of the new film on the temple shift schedules.

Edited August 10, 2013 by CV75

[Stone holm]

"For what it's worth": Our temple presidency is celebrating the positive impact of the new film on the temple shift schedules.

Is that because it has slowed things down or was that just a random comment.

[3DOP]

Thanks for the replies to my admission that I am less enthused with Pope Francis than most non-Catholics.

I remember years ago I worked with a fellow who also went to the same church as I did. It happened that my wife was student teaching at the same school where his father taught. I mentioned to him that my wife said he was a nice guy or something like that and he made a comment about how that's what everybody says, and I could tell that he and his dad didn't hit it off quite right at that time, but he did well to refrain from saying anything more and I didn't ask. I could tell that it galled him a little that everybody outside the family seemed to always voice such high praise for his father. Anyway, I guess that's a little how I feel here.

I have difficulty being glad you guys like him so much. It annoys and saddens me that praise of Pope Francis always seems to be tied to an unspoken perception that he brings some new breath of fresh air to a church that has been plagued with popes who do not measure up to him. I am personally unimpressed with actions that endear him to many Catholics and most non-Catholics in part because I believe he needs to accept the dignity of his office as his predecessors did. A costly residence and ecclesiastical garments that reflect a little bit of Christ's majesty are befitting to him who is the vicar, as we believe, of the King of kings on earth. His much vaunted humility appears to me to be as ostentatious as the garments he refuses to wear.

Be all that as it may, what troubles me most about these actions is that it makes his predecessors appear to the world in a negative light because they humbly accepted the prerogatives as well as the burden, if you will, of upholding papal traditions which are poorly understood by the media, interested non-Catholics, and even many of the faithful.

Perhaps some will think I should not be saying this? Maybe I should imitate my work buddy who refrained from talking about his dad? Here is the difference. He had one dad. There have been 264 popes. From Leo XIII to Benedict XVI and for all the centuries before that, I owe those popes the same filial loyalty that I owe to the one who just happens to be alive today. It is for them that I speak. Perhaps I spoke rashly when I offered my prediction that Pope Francis' words and initiatives will be forgotten in twenty years? Perhaps I am being overly sensitive in thinking that you guys probably wouldn't care for popes I have studied and admired, such as Leo XIII, Pius X, and Pius XII? If I am wrong just say so. Will you who praise Pope Francis praise those popes too? Great! And since you'll be needing a sponsor for baptism, I am available. Heh.

God bless,

3DOP

PS:

We are finishing the Great Feast of St. Lawrence today! I wonder if this would qualify as an example of "slow church"? Anyway, I'll make this brief. When the avaricious prefect of Rome apprehended Deacon Lawrence, he was aware that the deacon had charge of all the treasures accumulated by the Roman church. See, even then (250 AD) the faithful knew that it honors Christ and it has always pleased the Church to accumulate the best and richest things to beautify the churches and to symbolize the beauty of heaven in the liturgical mysteries. And so, this prefect who has just executed Pope Sixtus three days previously is hoping to ransack the Church for his own benefit. He commands Lawrence to bring him all the wealth of the Church and he will spare his life.

When the time comes for presenting the wealth of the Church to the prefect, Lawrence assembles before him all of the poor, and lame, and blind that as deacon he was charged with maintaining. "Here are the riches of the Church," said St. Lawrence. What a beautiful truth. We know what matters, and it isn't material goods. Jesus says we have to be "poor in spirit", and surely Lawrence understood well the value of a spirit of poverty. But he saw no conflict between that truth, and the value that we poor sinners gain from a rich and beautiful liturgy. We can recognize and aid the poor without impoverishing the Holy Mass. Both must be priorities.

On the Feast of St. Lawrence, Deacon and Martyr,

Rory

Edited August 11, 2013 by 3DOP

[volgadon]

Perhaps I am being overly sensitive in thinking that you guys probably wouldn't care for popes I have studied and admired, such as Leo XIII, Pius X, and Pius XII?

Leo XIII was certainly extremely admirable on multiple levels. Introduced a lot of social programs, fostered an intellectually honest and inviting environment, engaged in rapproachment with the Orthodox world and international diplomacy when Europe needed it badly, and protected the liturgical autonomy of the Eastern Rites, not to mention his theological activity.

[Stone holm]

Thanks for the replies to my admission that I am less enthused with Pope Francis than most non-Catholics.

I remember years ago I worked with a fellow who also went to the same church as I did. It happened that my wife was student teaching at the same school where his father taught. I mentioned to him that my wife said he was a nice guy or something like that and he made a comment about how that's what everybody says, and I could tell that he and his dad didn't hit it off quite right at that time, but he did well to refrain from saying anything more and I didn't ask. I could tell that it galled him a little that everybody outside the family seemed to always voice such high praise for his father. Anyway, I guess that's a little how I feel here.

I have difficulty being glad you guys like him so much. It annoys and saddens me that praise of Pope Francis always seems to be tied to an unspoken perception that he brings some new breath of fresh air to a church that has been plagued with popes who do not measure up to him. I am personally unimpressed with actions that endear him to many Catholics and most non-Catholics in part because I believe he needs to accept the dignity of his office as his predecessors did. A costly residence and ecclesiastical garments that reflect a little bit of Christ's majesty are befitting to him who is the vicar, as we believe, of the King of kings on earth. His much vaunted humility appears to me to be as ostentatious as the garments he refuses to wear.

Be all that as it may, what troubles me most about these actions is that it makes his predecessors appear to the world in a negative light because they humbly accepted the prerogatives as well as the burden, if you will, of upholding papal traditions which are poorly understood by the media, interested non-Catholics, and even many of the faithful.

Perhaps some will think I should not be saying this? Maybe I should imitate my work buddy who refrained from talking about his dad? Here is the difference. He had one dad. There have been 264 popes. From Leo XIII to Benedict XVI and for all the centuries before that, I owe those popes the same filial loyalty that I owe to the one who just happens to be alive today. It is for them that I speak. Perhaps I spoke rashly when I offered my prediction that Pope Francis' words and initiatives will be forgotten in twenty years? Perhaps I am being overly sensitive in thinking that you guys probably wouldn't care for popes I have studied and admired, such as Leo XIII, Pius X, and Pius XII? If I am wrong just say so. Will you who praise Pope Francis praise those popes too? Great! And since you'll be needing a sponsor for baptism, I am available. Heh.

God bless,

3DOP

PS:

We are finishing the Great Feast of St. Lawrence today! I wonder if this would qualify as an example of "slow church"? Anyway, I'll make this brief. When the avaricious prefect of Rome apprehended Deacon Lawrence, he was aware that the deacon had charge of all the treasures accumulated by the Roman church. See, even then (250 AD) the faithful knew that it honors Christ and it has always pleased the Church to accumulate the best and richest things to beautify the churches and to symbolize the beauty of heaven in the liturgical mysteries. And so, this prefect who has just executed Pope Sixtus three days previously is hoping to ransack the Church for his own benefit. He commands Lawrence to bring him all the wealth of the Church and he will spare his life.

When the time comes for presenting the wealth of the Church to the prefect, Lawrence assembles before him all of the poor, and lame, and blind that as deacon he was charged with maintaining. "Here are the riches of the Church," said St. Lawrence. What a beautiful truth. We know what matters, and it isn't material goods. Jesus says we have to be "poor in spirit", and surely Lawrence understood well the value of a spirit of poverty. But he saw no conflict between that truth, and the value that we poor sinners gain from a rich and beautiful liturgy. We can recognize and aid the poor without impoverishing the Holy Mass. Both must be priorities.

On the Feast of St. Lawrence, Deacon and Martyr,

Rory

But you must have noticed that not all are equally enchanted with all of our Prophets, and methinks you would not hear equivalent praise for Pope Benedict on this Board.

[mfbukowski]

We condemn Catholics for displays of wealth, but love our temples to have the absolute best of everything. I think we have a little problem there.

If we heard stories of poor women being told to crush their china to make the walls of St. Peter's sparkly we would be horrified.

[CV75]

Is that because it has slowed things down or was that just a random comment.

"Our temple presidency is celebrating the positive impact of the new film on the temple shift schedules."

Define "random comment," please. And what if it has sped the pace of the schedules up?

It has provided an opportunity to make the shift schedules less full, allowing a more leisurely pace.

Now what is wrong with speeding things up, or slowing things down, when the increase or decrease is inspired?

[mfbukowski]

... and Pius XII?

I have a document signed by Pius XII which gives me a Plenary Indulgence upon death if I truly repent of my sins on my deathbed. Ya never know....

[ChristKnight]

Thanks for the replies to my admission that I am less enthused with Pope Francis than most non-Catholics.

I remember years ago I worked with a fellow who also went to the same church as I did. It happened that my wife was student teaching at the same school where his father taught. I mentioned to him that my wife said he was a nice guy or something like that and he made a comment about how that's what everybody says, and I could tell that he and his dad didn't hit it off quite right at that time, but he did well to refrain from saying anything more and I didn't ask. I could tell that it galled him a little that everybody outside the family seemed to always voice such high praise for his father. Anyway, I guess that's a little how I feel here.

I have difficulty being glad you guys like him so much. It annoys and saddens me that praise of Pope Francis always seems to be tied to an unspoken perception that he brings some new breath of fresh air to a church that has been plagued with popes who do not measure up to him. I am personally unimpressed with actions that endear him to many Catholics and most non-Catholics in part because I believe he needs to accept the dignity of his office as his predecessors did. A costly residence and ecclesiastical garments that reflect a little bit of Christ's majesty are befitting to him who is the vicar, as we believe, of the King of kings on earth. His much vaunted humility appears to me to be as ostentatious as the garments he refuses to wear.

Be all that as it may, what troubles me most about these actions is that it makes his predecessors appear to the world in a negative light because they humbly accepted the prerogatives as well as the burden, if you will, of upholding papal traditions which are poorly understood by the media, interested non-Catholics, and even many of the faithful.

Perhaps some will think I should not be saying this? Maybe I should imitate my work buddy who refrained from talking about his dad? Here is the difference. He had one dad. There have been 264 popes. From Leo XIII to Benedict XVI and for all the centuries before that, I owe those popes the same filial loyalty that I owe to the one who just happens to be alive today. It is for them that I speak. Perhaps I spoke rashly when I offered my prediction that Pope Francis' words and initiatives will be forgotten in twenty years? Perhaps I am being overly sensitive in thinking that you guys probably wouldn't care for popes I have studied and admired, such as Leo XIII, Pius X, and Pius XII? If I am wrong just say so. Will you who praise Pope Francis praise those popes too? Great! And since you'll be needing a sponsor for baptism, I am available. Heh.

God bless,

3DOP

PS:

We are finishing the Great Feast of St. Lawrence today! I wonder if this would qualify as an example of "slow church"? Anyway, I'll make this brief. When the avaricious prefect of Rome apprehended Deacon Lawrence, he was aware that the deacon had charge of all the treasures accumulated by the Roman church. See, even then (250 AD) the faithful knew that it honors Christ and it has always pleased the Church to accumulate the best and richest things to beautify the churches and to symbolize the beauty of heaven in the liturgical mysteries. And so, this prefect who has just executed Pope Sixtus three days previously is hoping to ransack the Church for his own benefit. He commands Lawrence to bring him all the wealth of the Church and he will spare his life.

When the time comes for presenting the wealth of the Church to the prefect, Lawrence assembles before him all of the poor, and lame, and blind that as deacon he was charged with maintaining. "Here are the riches of the Church," said St. Lawrence. What a beautiful truth. We know what matters, and it isn't material goods. Jesus says we have to be "poor in spirit", and surely Lawrence understood well the value of a spirit of poverty. But he saw no conflict between that truth, and the value that we poor sinners gain from a rich and beautiful liturgy. We can recognize and aid the poor without impoverishing the Holy Mass. Both must be priorities.

On the Feast of St. Lawrence, Deacon and Martyr,

Rory

I personally love Pope Benedict XVI, especially him as a theologian. His books are great, most especially the Jesus of Nazareth series, The Spirit of the Liturgy, Called to Communion: Understanding the Church Today, and God is Near Us: The Eucharist, the Heart of Life.

I agree with your sentiments on Pope Francis, as well as the issue of "wealth" and the beauty of churches and the sacramental mysteries, while at the same time caring for the poor. I'm sure Latter-day Saints understand that concept, with the beauty of temples and humanitarian aid simultaneously.

Hmm Pope Pius X...if I remember correctly, your son is now a priest in SSPX? I think I remember asking you if you were part of the Society, forgot your answer . I'll have to read more about Pope Pius X and his liturgical thoughts. I also need to attend a Tridentine Mass soon. I've been thinking about it lately (mostly on how the Catholic liturgical rites, devotions, priesthood, etc relate to the OT/NT temple. The Letter and Spirit journal's "Temple and Contemplation-God's Presence in the Cosmos, Church, and Human Heart" has been fantastic, especially the articles by my two favorite Catholic theologians and writers, Dr. Hahn and Dr. Pitre) but have yet to just go. Luckily, NYC has many options.

[canard78]

He has obviously listened to General Conference talks.

(canard78: reminds himself that cdowis uses dry humour)

[pogi]

I am personally unimpressed with actions that endear him to many Catholics and most non-Catholics in part because I believe he needs to accept the dignity of his office as his predecessors did. A costly residence and ecclesiastical garments that reflect a little bit of Christ's majesty are befitting to him who is the vicar, as we believe, of the King of kings on earth.

Funny, when I was reading this I was reminded of Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade. You would have picked the golden and jeweled grail huh? Yikes!

[mfbukowski]

Luckily, NYC has many options.

I am jealous. That would bring back some strong memories- haven't had that experience since 8th grade or so. I still have my missal somewhere.

[mfbukowski]

Funny, when I was reading this I was reminded of Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade. You would have picked the golden and jeweled grail huh? Yikes!

Yeah, that money might have paid for a crystal chandelier in a temple lobby! What a waste!

[Stone holm]

"Our temple presidency is celebrating the positive impact of the new film on the temple shift schedules."

Define "random comment," please. And what if it has sped the pace of the schedules up?

It has provided an opportunity to make the shift schedules less full, allowing a more leisurely pace.

Now what is wrong with speeding things up, or slowing things down, when the increase or decrease is inspired?

Random comment is one which has nothing to do with the topic. My reference to slowness was meant to inquire if the comment had something to do with the topic, as opposed to being a random unrelated comment.