When Does Apostacy Begin

[EllenMaksoud]

I have my own thoughts about it. Perhaps it is when people lose the vision? From my own research, I think the early church endured a ferocious attack directly from satan. He could not utterly destroy it, so he simply perverted it, and I think that perhaps there are dozens of places in history where he has attacked again and again. I am not really one to acknowledge satan in my own life, not because I don't believe in satan but because I dislike satan.

The woman being attacked in the wilderness comes to mind but I have not established a connection, if there is one.

I'll be doing research over the next several days since this appears to be the next focus of my obsessive mind. I would love to hear from others.

[The Nehor]

Sin. Sometimes actively sinning. Sometime pride. Sometimes timidity. Sometimes fear of pain. Sometimes fear of happiness. Sometimes vanity. Lots of fun ways to apostasy. If I had to recommend one it would be actively sinning. At least that way you often have fun on the way out.

I turned down a threesome then went semiactive over intellectual conceits. Such wasted opportunities.

Edited August 4, 2013 by The Nehor

[Duncan]

it starts when you start to eat doritos. Once you do that you start drinking pepsi and as we all know Pepsi in brewed in Satan's kitchen. You quickly realize that you are drinking the devils' drink and you feel bad. When you feel bad you go to movies. When you go to the movies you spend money you don't have on more Pepsi and more doritos. Now Satan has you. You feel even worse now and walk home, get mugged and end up in a Wal-Mart drainage ditch staring up at life through the bars of a pushed over cart. You wake up, dirty and have Pepsi on your breath. You see the missionaries and they don't believe your story because you smell like you are under the influence, upset at this turn of events you decide to eat more doritos and continue to binge on Pepsi.

so don't eat doritos

[Glenn101]

it starts when you start to eat doritos. Once you do that you start drinking pepsi and as we all know Pepsi in brewed in Satan's kitchen. You quickly realize that you are drinking the devils' drink and you feel bad. When you feel bad you go to movies. When you go to the movies you spend money you don't have on more Pepsi and more doritos. Now Satan has you. You feel even worse now and walk home, get mugged and end up in a Wal-Mart drainage ditch staring up at life through the bars of a pushed over cart. You wake up, dirty and have Pepsi on your breath. You see the missionaries and they don't believe your story because you smell like you are under the influence, upset at this turn of events you decide to eat more doritos and continue to binge on Pepsi.

so don't eat doritos

I eat doritos, on occasion, but am a Dr. Pepper addict, which is the Only True Soft Drink. Sour cream and onion potato chips with Mountain Dew is another path to Junk Food Heaven when followed by a couple of Suzie Q's.

[Questing Beast]

I have my own thoughts about it. Perhaps it is when people lose the vision? From my own research, I think the early church endured a ferocious attack directly from satan. He could not utterly destroy it, so he simply perverted it, and I think that perhaps there are dozens of places in history where he has attacked again and again. I am not really one to acknowledge satan in my own life, not because I don't believe in satan but because I dislike satan.

The woman being attacked in the wilderness comes to mind but I have not established a connection, if there is one.

I'll be doing research over the next several days since this appears to be the next focus of my obsessive mind. I would love to hear from others.

My current take on religious history is that all religions share "evolution" in common. Human beings alter what they have for whatever reasons are expedient or desired. They are even willing to go so far as to concoct "history" to prove their points. "Alan" on this forum has admitted that he rewrote his early missionary journals to make them fit into his then-current paradigm, and threw the old, original journal entries away; and he admitted this to show that the Nauvoo period is bereft of any original evidence supporting JS's practice of sexual polygamy; that all such evidence purported to derive from the Nauvoo period was "back-written", e.g. Wm Clayton's Nauvoo period journal/diary entries were all revised later out in Utah territory, to show that BY was not the instigator of Utah polygamy, JS was.

Studying Mormonism is like looking at early Christianity through a glass, we can get insights into how early/primitive Christianity morphed and constructed its own history, by studying Mormon history. I believe that the very first believers in Christianity believed the story of Jesus' resurrection, and the promised Oneness with God that Jesus taught. Later, the "Son of God" turned into the messiah prophesied in the OT, and Mary was defended against slanders of being a whore and having an illegitimate son, by the fable of the "immaculate conception", and "virgin birth", etc. Genealogies of her Davidic heritage were created. Fables to cover murder were concocted for Ananias and Sapphira. The earliest, purported "sayings of Jesus", e.g. the Gospel of Thomas, have few if any christological titles emanating from Jesus about himself, and possibly were added on later by others....

Edited August 4, 2013 by Questing Beast

[EllenMaksoud]

My current take on religious history is that all religions share "evolution" in common. Human beings alter what they have for whatever reasons are expedient or desired. They are even willing to go so far as to concoct "history" to prove their points. "Alan" on this forum has admitted that he rewrote his early missionary journals to make them fit into his then-current paradigm, and threw the old, original journal entries away; and he admitted this to show that the Nauvoo period is bereft of any original evidence supporting JS's practice of sexual polygamy; that all such evidence purported to derive from the Nauvoo period was "back-written", e.g. Wm Clayton's Nauvoo period journal/diary entries were all revised later out in Utah territory, to show that BY was not the instigator of Utah polygamy, JS was.

Studying Mormonism is like looking at early Christianity through a glass, we can get insights into how early/primitive Christianity morphed and constructed its own history, by studying Mormon history. I believe that the very first believers in Christianity believed the story of Jesus' resurrection, and the promised Oneness with God that Jesus taught. Later, the "Son of God" turned into the messiah prophesied in the OT, and Mary was defended against slanders of being a whore and having an illegitimate son, by the fable of the "immaculate conception", and "virgin birth", etc. Genealogies of her Davidic heritage were created. Fables to cover murder were concocted for Ananias and Sapphira. The earliest, purported "sayings of Jesus", e.g. the Gospel of Thomas, have few if any christological titles emanating from Jesus about himself, and possibly were added on later by others....

Of great fascination to me is the desparity between Western History and Islamic History, even up to the year 1200 AD,

I begin to question the very foundations of the early pseudo church; the "trinity", the Canon", the deliberate exclusion of certain writings, and it makes me wonder if Heavenly Father's actual desires for out lives are not much more basic than we think.

I know lots of Mormons whose knowlege of the BoM, the D&C, and other Mormon documents is astonishing, yet the Bible is almost unfamiliar to them. Yet, in my opinion, the church more closely approaches Heavenly Father than any other that I have experienced.

[rpn]

The world in the meridian of time did not have good communication. The Epistles of the New Testament show common threads --- people take the simple things of the gospel and attach to them more and better. At some point the more and better becomes someone's idea of the way it is supposed to be. In the meantime, there are real people who want to hijack the movement for their own purposes. But finally, all of those who have had the authority to act in God's name die. And at that point, it is purely manmade. If the people in Jesus time and thereafter still had 900 year old lifespans, I suspect we would never have gotten the apostasy. But it is clear that when you have a faith movement that does not include priesthood, it is really easy to become over zealous and to abrograte the whole notion of agency by making people to do right.

[Questing Beast]

I'm reading "The Life of Muhammad", the expurgated version put out by Folio Society of Ibn Ishaq's biography, the earliest known, translated by Edward Rehatsek (1819-1891). It is definitely a "faith promoting" version, first written within a century and a half of the "hijra". History to a Muslim is utterly foreign to a Christian, and visa versa, thus proving the point of "concocted history". I know of no exceptions....

[CV75]

I think it begins when someone takes more steps backward than forward and doesn't mind.

[thesometimesaint]

I have my own thoughts about it. Perhaps it is when people lose the vision? From my own research, I think the early church endured a ferocious attack directly from satan. He could not utterly destroy it, so he simply perverted it, and I think that perhaps there are dozens of places in history where he has attacked again and again. I am not really one to acknowledge satan in my own life, not because I don't believe in satan but because I dislike satan.

The woman being attacked in the wilderness comes to mind but I have not established a connection, if there is one.

I'll be doing research over the next several days since this appears to be the next focus of my obsessive mind. I would love to hear from others.

I think it starts the minute we substitute our very flawed judgement for that of Gods'.

[lotharson]

What is the fate of a Mormon apostate?

Lothar's son - Lothars Sohn

http://lotharlorraine.wordpress.com/

[Stargazer]

I eat doritos, on occasion, but am a Dr. Pepper addict, which is the Only True Soft Drink. Sour cream and onion potato chips with Mountain Dew is another path to Junk Food Heaven when followed by a couple of Suzie Q's.

I dont know about sour cream and onion potato chips with Mountain Dew. I think it far more dangerous to dip cottage cheese with Wavy Lays potato chips while knocking back a Monster Assault energy drink.

Apologies to Ellen for continuing the joke and not answering her question!

[Stargazer]

What is the fate of a Mormon apostate?

Lothar's son - Lothars Sohn

http://lotharlorraine.wordpress.com/

Are you seious? Or is this a straight line for a joke?

If you're serious, a Mormon apostate who does not publicly teach his or her apostate doctrines can count on remaining a member in good standing. But such a person who begins to teach his or her apostate doctrines as if they were doctrines of the Church is likely to be excommunicated, meaning no longer being a member of the Church.

If you're looking for humor, then he or she will be hauled into kangaroo court before the Relief Society or Elder's Quorum and forced to eat green jello and funeral potatoes until he or she recants.

[EllenMaksoud]

Sin. Sometimes actively sinning. Sometime pride. Sometimes timidity. Sometimes fear of pain. Sometimes fear of happiness. Sometimes vanity. Lots of fun ways to apostasy. If I had to recommend one it would be actively sinning. At least that way you often have fun on the way out.

I turned down a threesome then went semiactive over intellectual conceits. Such wasted opportunities.

Oh dear! I've done none of those things, not even a DUI, although I was given a ticket for far slower than I was actually going. He yelled at me so much I cried and it made me feel awful. He thought I was a Nun.

At my Ward, a sister started a rumor that I had been a "Navy Seal". Worse yet people believed her.

Actually, I view Heavenly Father with Love, and fear, the beginning of understandig.

[kassie]

Sin. Sometimes actively sinning. Sometime pride. Sometimes timidity. Sometimes fear of pain. Sometimes fear of happiness. Sometimes vanity. Lots of fun ways to apostasy. If I had to recommend one it would be actively sinning. At least that way you often have fun on the way out.

I turned down a threesome then went semiactive over intellectual conceits. Such wasted opportunities.

I am laughing too hard at this to even write down a response!

[MDalby]

Sin. Sometimes actively sinning. Sometime pride. Sometimes timidity. Sometimes fear of pain. Sometimes fear of happiness. Sometimes vanity. Lots of fun ways to apostasy.

People don't lose their faith because they sin. People sin because they lost their faith. Apostasy begins when people are not taking the steps necessary to gain or strengthen their testimony into conversion.

Look at the root of being "faithful." Being faithful in our covenants is due to our faith.

Edited August 4, 2013 by MDalby

[The Nehor]

At my Ward, a sister started a rumor that I had been a "Navy Seal". Worse yet people believed her.

You're in good company then. Mr. Rogers still has stories going around about him being a Special Forces assassin (not true).

[The Nehor]

People don't lose their faith because they sin. People sin because they lost their faith. Apostasy begins when people are not taking the steps necessary to gain or strengthen their testimony into conversion.

Look at the root of being "faithful." Being faithful in our covenants is due to our faith.

This is a chicken and egg thing. People lose their faith because they sin but they also sin because they lose their faith.

[kassie]

What is the fate of a Mormon apostate?

Lothar's son - Lothars Sohn

http://lotharlorraine.wordpress.com/

I'm going to assume you are serious and you are actually inquiring as to 'what happens' to a Mormon who apotocizes? Well, first if they are really an apostate they don't care what happens from the point of view of the Church. If you no longer believe the Church has any authority over you why do you care if they call you an apostate? Seen that many times. That being said, I would assume the apostate leaves the Church and goes on with his/her life to suit themselves. Perhaps they join another church more in line with their belief system. Perhaps they disavow any religious affiliation. I have never understood all these ex-mormons who agonize about writing their "exit letters" for years and years. If you don't believe in it anymore....walk away. Move on with your life.

[EllenMaksoud]

My current take on religious history is that all religions share "evolution" in common. Human beings alter what they have for whatever reasons are expedient or desired. They are even willing to go so far as to concoct "history" to prove their points. "Alan" on this forum has admitted that he rewrote his early missionary journals to make them fit into his then-current paradigm, and threw the old, original journal entries away; and he admitted this to show that the Nauvoo period is bereft of any original evidence supporting JS's practice of sexual polygamy; that all such evidence purported to derive from the Nauvoo period was "back-written", e.g. Wm Clayton's Nauvoo period journal/diary entries were all revised later out in Utah territory, to show that BY was not the instigator of Utah polygamy, JS was.

Studying Mormonism is like looking at early Christianity through a glass, we can get insights into how early/primitive Christianity morphed and constructed its own history, by studying Mormon history. I believe that the very first believers in Christianity believed the story of Jesus' resurrection, and the promised Oneness with God that Jesus taught. Later, the "Son of God" turned into the messiah prophesied in the OT, and Mary was defended against slanders of being a whore and having an illegitimate son, by the fable of the "immaculate conception", and "virgin birth", etc. Genealogies of her Davidic heritage were created. Fables to cover murder were concocted for Ananias and Sapphira. The earliest, purported "sayings of Jesus", e.g. the Gospel of Thomas, have few if any christological titles emanating from Jesus about himself, and possibly were added on later by others....

So, to me, it is puzzling as to what year that the church went apostate. I am not fond of what happened to certain groups, the Essenes, and the Gnostics. I heard a lecture once that advocated for the idea that Jesus was an Essene. Then they were all slaughtered; by whom? Wast it the Romans, or was it radical early Christians?

Then of course there is "The Book of Nicodemus"; uncannonized by the early church. Interestingly, it is held in great esteem by some of the more studious christians. . "The present translation is made from the Gospel published by Grynæus in the Orthodoxographa," It is just one of a dozen things sitting on a dark shelf in the back hall of my brain. Yes, this is the book that challenges the crucifixion.

[EllenMaksoud]

This is a chicken and egg thing. People lose their faith because they sin but they also sin because they lose their faith.

"Faith is a gift of God" Eph. 2:8 So, I think it must be that our actions displease God first.

[Calm]

What is the fate of a Mormon apostate?

That would depend on what s/he chooses for himself.

[Calm]

I am laughing too hard at this to even write down a response!

Get used to it. Nehor is a board treasure.

[EllenMaksoud]

I'm reading "The Life of Muhammad", the expurgated version put out by Folio Society of Ibn Ishaq's biography, the earliest known, translated by Edward Rehatsek (1819-1891). It is definitely a "faith promoting" version, first written within a century and a half of the "hijra". History to a Muslim is utterly foreign to a Christian, and visa versa, thus proving the point of "concocted history". I know of no exceptions....

There are as many or more bad stories about Muhammad PBUH as there are about Joseph Smith. I finally got frustrated with their fatwas and hadeeths and abandoned them. As for Muhammad's PBUH deeds, I am certain that what he did was within the mores of the culture of the time. He wrote the constitution of medina, the first document to decree rights for women. Islam got into trouble very soon after Muhammad's death however over succession, much like the Mormons did after the death of Joseph Smith. I started out in Islam as a Niqabi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niq%C4%81b), but after a time it became apparent that covering that much was due to the extreme shame that I felt as a result of my marriage failing. Most Muslim women simply use the observance of Hijab.

The issue of succession became very violent. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Succession_to_Muhammad) and eventually solidly split upon the murder of Ali. I was Shia the last years of being Muslim. To those who got to see the Islamic display at the college Museum at BYU, Provo, that is primarily Shia (Persian) art.

I still spend a lot of time feeling very conflicted about my role in Islam, and have finally decided that it is OK to bear conflict within ones self.

[EllenMaksoud]

Get used to it. Nehor is a board treasure.

One of the most refreshing things about being Mormon is that I can act up and missbehave and still be Mormon.