When Does Apostacy Begin

[Kenngo1969]

I think it begins when someone takes more steps backward than forward and doesn't mind.

Great point, and I would also add that I think it begins, not with one's actions, but rather with one's heart? Do I do plenty of things wrong? Yes. Do I repent perfectly? Probably not. But is my heart in the right place? In all humility, I say, I think so ... I hope so.

[MDalby]

This is a chicken and egg thing. People lose their faith because they sin but they also sin because they lose their faith.

No... If someone has sufficient faith, they will remain faithful.

Faith is something greater than ourselves that enables us to do what we said we will do. To press forward when we are tired or hurt or afraid. To keep going when the challenge seems overwhelming and the course is uncertain.”

― Gordon B. Hinckley

True faith always results in faithfulness

Edited August 4, 2013 by MDalby

[The Nehor]

No... If someone has sufficient faith, they will remain faithful.

Unless they choose not to....by sinning for example.

[CV75]

Great point, and I would also add that I think it begins, not with one's actions, but rather with one's heart? Do I do plenty of things wrong? Yes. Do I repent perfectly? Probably not. But is my heart in the right place? In all humility, I say, I think so ... I hope so.

Cool--and that allows us to receive revelation despite the obstacles and steps back we struggle with, as described in this article from this month's Ensign: http://www.lds.org/ensign/2013/08/opening-our-hearts-to-revelation?lang=eng

"

As you examine the condition of your heart and the barriers you may be putting in the way of your communication with God, you will know what you need to do, and you will know what you need to change. I invite you to act now. Be bold in choosing to remove any obstruction to the sweet, comforting, guiding messages of love from your Father in Heaven.

The most important message any of us could receive or carry is a reminder of who we are and how we are loved by our Eternal Father and His Son, Jesus Christ. When the truth and reality of this message sink deep into our hearts, we are drawn back to Them—to Their love, to Their light, and to Their arms."

The bold part (mine): I think being "drawn back to Them" is not just our ultimate return to Their presence, but our stepwise return as we take those steps forward, even after having gone backward.

[MDalby]

Unless they choose not to....by sinning for example.

sigh... You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him think...

[Calm]

Iow, there is only one right way of looking at things.

[Calm]

True faith always results in faithfulness

So what does that say about the very elect that are deceived? That their faith was never "true faith" to begin with? Edited August 5, 2013 by calmoriah

[canard78]

Sorry... is this thread about why Mormons go apostate or why the early church did?

A little confused.

[The Nehor]

sigh... You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him think...

You can't make him drink either. You can shove his face into it though so it is drink or drown.

[MDalby]

There is the motivation that comes of true conversion. When there throbs in the heart of an individual Latter-day Saint a great and vital testimony of the truth of this work, he will be found doing his duty in the Church. He will be found in his sacrament meetings. He will be found in his priesthood meetings. He will be found paying his honest tithes and offerings. He will be doing his home teaching. He will be found in attendance at the temple as frequently as his circumstances will permit. He will have within him a great desire to share the gospel with others. He will be found strengthening and lifting his brethren and sisters. It is conversion that makes the difference,” said President Hinckley. In all that we do we must cultivate faith. Increased faith is the touchstone to improved church performance,”

(News of the Church,” Ensign, May 1984, 100)

[MDalby]

What makes people repent? As near as I have been able to determine, once a person has sufficient faith in the Lord Jesus Christ that he believes Christ has paid for his sins, then he will repent."

(Hartman Rector, Jr., Ensign, November 1990)

[Questing Beast]

There are as many or more bad stories about Muhammad PBUH as there are about Joseph Smith. ...

I still spend a lot of time feeling very conflicted about my role in Islam, and have finally decided that it is OK to bear conflict within ones self.

Yes, conflict is inevitable, and messy, like the history of religion(s). All anyone can do is keep actively thinking and altering to suit the inner "light". Never lie to yourself. That is core no matter what you believe or disbelieve....

[Questing Beast]

Sorry... is this thread about why Mormons go apostate or why the early church did?

A little confused.

I think it is about both? Both are more alike than unalike. "It's happening again", could be a simple description of the influence of Mormonism on Judeo-Christianity, the way primitive Christianity influenced the world of Judaism and Paganism....

[MDalby]

So what does that say about the very elect that are deceived? That their faith was never "true faith" to begin with?

Just because someone is elect according to the covenant, the elect hear his voice and harden not their hearts (D&C 29:7) that doesn't mean they are always strengthening their faith.

25 And the first fruits of repentance is baptism; and baptism cometh by faith unto the fulfilling the commandments; and the fulfilling the commandments bringeth remission of sins;

(Moroni 8:25)

How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

(Romans 10:14, 17)

It doesn't work that you hear the truth, you get faith, you start to obey the commandments, you start to repent, you make covenants and get baptized and you are then done. The elect are not done. they need to continue to do all the things that brought faith in the first place and strengthen their testimonies so they will not be deceived.

[Lightbearer]

I would think at the moment one looses the spirit of the Lord... and then does not care. I believe it is directly related to our desires. Judas became an apostate not when he was tempted by the Chief Priests to betray Christ but when he became angry at the Savior's rebuke:

"Then took Mary a pound of ointment of spikenard, very costly, and anointed the feet of Jesus, and wiped his feet with her hair: and the house was filled with the odour of the ointment. Then saith one of his disciples, Judas Iscariot, Simon's son, which should betray him, Why was not this ointment sold for three hundred pence, and given to the poor? This he said, not that he cared for the poor; but because he was a thief, and had the bag, and bare what was put therein. Then said Jesus, Let her alone: against the day of my burying hath she kept this. For the poor always ye have with you; but me ye have not always." (New Testament | John 12:3-8)

I note here a couple of things, first he was a thief at heart, second he sought to accuse the Savior, he questioned Jesus intent and His authority. Note the following in another Gospel yet speaking of the same event:

"And being in Bethany in the house of Simon the leper, as he sat at meat, there came a woman having an alabaster box of ointment of spikenard very precious; and she brake the box, and poured it on his head. And there were some that had indignation within themselves, and said, Why was this waste of the ointment made? For it might have been sold for more than three hundred pence, and have been given to the poor. And they murmured against her. And Jesus said, Let her alone; why trouble ye her? she hath wrought a good work on me. For ye have the poor with you always, and whensoever ye will ye may do them good: but me ye have not always. She hath done what she could: she is come aforehand to anoint my body to the burying. Verily I say unto you, Wheresoever this gospel shall be preached throughout the whole world, this also that she hath done shall be spoken of for a memorial of her. And Judas Iscariot, one of the twelve, went unto the chief priests, to betray him unto them. And when they heard it, they were glad, and promised to give him money. And he sought how he might conveniently betray him." (New Testament | Mark 14:3-11)

Notice that Judas went to betray Jesus, the chief priest's did not seek him out. How could this have happened? If Judas did not already have a grudge or had found a fault with Jesus. The Prophet Joseph taught this principle of fault finding being a road to apostasy:

"I will give you one of the Keys of the mysteries of the Kingdom. It is an eternal principle, that has existed with God from all eternity: That man who rises up to condemn other, finding fault with the Church, saying that they are out of the way, while he himself is righteous, then know assuredly, that that man is in the high road to apostasy; and if he does not repent, will apostatize, as God lives. The principle is as correct as the one that Jesus put forth in saying that he who seeketh a sign is an adulterous person; and that principle is eternal, undeviating, and firm as the pillars of heaven; for whenever you see a man seeking after a sign, you may set it down that he is an adulterous man." (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith Section Four 1839-42, p.156)

Lifting our heal at the Lord's annointed is a good way to loose the spirit of the Lord. And loosing the spirit is easy to do and unless we renew that spirit by repentance and worthily partaking of the sacrament and obeying the voice of the Lord we will become spotted by the world and can be lost.

[EllenMaksoud]

Sorry... is this thread about why Mormons go apostate or why the early church did?

A little confused.

As in the Old Testament, and the Book of Mormon, I begin to see that straying from the truth is natural for humans. I am sure that highly educated theologians have a word for it, but I do not. They perhaps use some rediculous idea like "sin nature" or something else. I think perhaps that humans also fall prey to the second law of thermodynamics. I look back to my earliest memories and have decided that at this age, it is just nuts to waste my time on remorse for past acts. We try as hard as we can and some times things work out and others they don't. Our lives are full of cause and effect and we are disingenuous enough to try to attack morality to every thing.

So, my intention for starting this thread was to try to attach some rhyme or reason to why humans are always in trouble?

[MDalby]

If sinning was the cause of us losing our faith, then the inverse would also be true. In church we would just get up to the pulpit and preach stop sinning. Stop sinning and your faith will increase. But that is not what we are commanded to do. We are commanded to teach the gospel which will increase faith and increased faith will then result in less sinning.

True doctrine, understood, changes attitudes and behavior. The study of the doctrines of the gospel will improve behavior quicker than a study of behavior will improve behavior."

(Boyd K. Packer, Little Children," Ensign, Nov. 1986, 17)

Believe me, a lot of us don't understand this correlation. Many wards focus on the behavior rather than increasing faith. We think we will improve our numbers that go on missions if we preach about how the prophets have encouraged us to serve missions. We think that we will improve home teaching if we teach that home teaching is a responsibility. We need to focus on the increase of faith that will result in better obedience.

Yes obedience results in an increase in faith and if we have disobedience we cannot increase in faith. But faith is the power behind obedience.

Faith is the product of righteous desire, belief, and obedience.

(David S. Baxter - Oct. Gen. Conf 2006)

Hebrews 11 is all about how faith was the power behind the actions and obedience.

[Questing Beast]

..

So, my intention for starting this thread was to try to attach some rhyme or reason to why humans are always in trouble?

Possibly, because when not in this "venue", we are the exact opposite? Immortals are not in any kind of "trouble" whatsoever. Only mortality puts us into "trouble" and that right constantly. The "rhyme and reason" is all about what Lehi said, about the necessity of an opposition in all things, in order to give definition/sensibility to anything. We cannot be grateful that we are Joyous unless we have experience of its opposite.... Edited August 5, 2013 by Questing Beast