Yirgacheffe Posted November 6, 2014 Posted November 6, 2014 Yirgacheffe, I don't think you understand the atonement or what Christ suffered for.I don't see any of Christ's atonement in the idea that one has to be able to make restitution for sins.
sethpayne Posted November 6, 2014 Posted November 6, 2014 for those of you who believe sex is a serious sin, close ish to murder, what do you think masturbation is? third to murder? Of course. As Onan demonstrates, the penalty for this grievous sin is death.
SeekingUnderstanding Posted November 6, 2014 Posted November 6, 2014 The sexual sin that is like unto murder is adultery.CFR
rodheadlee Posted November 6, 2014 Posted November 6, 2014 CFRYou're kidding, right? 41 And as ye have asked concerning adultery, verily, verily, I say unto you, if a man areceiveth a wife in the new and everlasting covenant, and if she be with another man, and I have not appointed unto her by the holy banointing, she hath committed cadultery and shall be destroyed. 43 And if her husband be with another woman, and he was under a avow, he hath broken his vow and hath committed adultery. 44 And if she hath not committed adultery, but is innocent and hath not broken her vow, and she knoweth it, and I reveal it unto you, my servant Joseph, then shall you have power, by the power of my Holy Priesthood, to take her and agive her unto him that hath not committed badultery but hath been cfaithful; for he shall be made ruler over many.
The Nehor Posted November 6, 2014 Posted November 6, 2014 Of course. As Onan demonstrates, the penalty for this grievous sin is death.Onan was about not fulfilling duties to family. Duties we admittedly find odd today but duties nonetheless. It was not about self-gratification.
thestand6 Posted November 6, 2014 Posted November 6, 2014 This from the seminary Book of Mormon student manual. [deleted as inappropriate -mods] •Elder Jeffrey R. Holland explained the connection between the worth of a soul and the Atonement, helping us understand why sexual transgression is so serious:“In exploiting the body of another—which means exploiting his or her soul—one desecrates the Atonement of Christ, which saved that soul and which makes possible the gift of eternal life. And when one mocks the Son of Righteousness, one steps into a realm of heat hotter and holier than the noonday sun. You cannot do so and not be burned.“Please, never say: ‘Who does it hurt? Why not a little freedom? I can transgress now and repent later.’ Please don’t be so foolish and so cruel. You cannot with impunity ‘crucify Christ afresh’ [see Hebrews 6:6]. ‘Flee fornication’ [1 Corinthians 6:18], Paul cries, and flee‘anything like unto it’ [D&C 59:6; italics added], the Doctrine and Covenants adds. Why? Well, for one reason, because of the incalculable suffering in both body and spirit endured by the Savior of the world so that we could flee. We owe Him something for that. Indeed, we owe Him everything for that. ‘Ye are not your own,’ Paul says. ‘Ye [have been] bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God’s’ [1 Corinthians 6:19–20; italics added]. In sexual transgression the soul is at stake—the body and the spirit” (in Conference Report, Oct. 1998, 99–100; or Ensign, Nov. 1998, 76).
SeekingUnderstanding Posted November 6, 2014 Posted November 6, 2014 You're kidding, right? 41 And as ye have asked concerning adultery, verily, verily, I say unto you, if a man areceiveth a wife in the new and everlasting covenant, and if she be with another man, and I have not appointed unto her by the holy banointing, she hath committed cadultery and shall be destroyed. 43 And if her husband be with another woman, and he was under a avow, he hath broken his vow and hath committed adultery. 44 And if she hath not committed adultery, but is innocent and hath not broken her vow, and she knoweth it, and I reveal it unto you, my servant Joseph, then shall you have power, by the power of my Holy Priesthood, to take her and agive her unto him that hath not committed badultery but hath been cfaithful; for he shall be made ruler over many. Sorry, I should have been more clear. While establishing that adultery is a horrible sin (I don't personally know anyone that disagrees with this) it does not establish that adultery is next to murder or more specifically the only sexual sin next to murder. It seemed to me that you were claiming that the church teaches that adultery is the only "sexual sin that is like unto murder." If this is the case, I'd like to have a source to better my understanding of the church's official position. The church says the following in its "For the Strength of Youth Pamphlet":The Lord’s standard regarding sexual purity is clear and unchanging. Do not have any sexual relations before marriage, and be completely faithful to your spouse after marriage. Do not allow the media, your peers, or others to persuade you that sexual intimacy before marriage is acceptable. It is not. In God’s sight, sexual sins are extremely serious. They defile the sacred power God has given us to create life. The prophet Alma taught that sexual sins are more serious than any other sins except murder or denying the Holy Ghost (see Alma 39:5).
sethpayne Posted November 6, 2014 Posted November 6, 2014 (edited) Onan was about not fulfilling duties to family. Duties we admittedly find odd today but duties nonetheless. It was not about self-gratification. Virtue may be lost by degrees; and chastity may be destroyed a step at a time. Immodesty, necking, and petting, themselves a form of sex immorality, frequently lead to much grosser offenses. Every degree and type of lewdness, lasciviousness, and licentiousness; of concupiscence, prostitution, and whoredoms; of sodomy, onanism, and homosexuality; of masturbation, incontinence, and perversion; of rape, seduction, and infidelity; of adultery, fornication, and uncleanness -- all these things, as well as many others, are condemned by divine edict and are among Lucifer's chief means of leading souls to hell. Fine distinctions between them are of no particular moment and are not necessary to observance of the divine laws involved. Counsel in the field of chastity is simply: Be Chaste! Encyclopedia of Mormonism, Vol.1, CHASTITY, LAW OF Edited November 6, 2014 by sethpayne
Tacenda Posted November 6, 2014 Posted November 6, 2014 You're kidding, right? 41 And as ye have asked concerning adultery, verily, verily, I say unto you, if a man areceiveth a wife in the new and everlasting covenant, and if she be with another man, and I have not appointed unto her by the holy banointing, she hath committed cadultery and shall be destroyed. 43 And if her husband be with another woman, and he was under a avow, he hath broken his vow and hath committed adultery. 44 And if she hath not committed adultery, but is innocent and hath not broken her vow, and she knoweth it, and I reveal it unto you, my servant Joseph, then shall you have power, by the power of my Holy Priesthood, to take her and agive her unto him that hath not committed badultery but hath been cfaithful; for he shall be made ruler over many. Pretty one sided, she'll be destroyed but but not him. What happens to him if he commits adultery???
The Nehor Posted November 6, 2014 Posted November 6, 2014 Virtue may be lost by degrees; and chastity may be destroyed a step at a time. Immodesty, necking, and petting, themselves a form of sex immorality, frequently lead to much grosser offenses. Every degree and type of lewdness, lasciviousness, and licentiousness; of concupiscence, prostitution, and whoredoms; of sodomy, onanism, and homosexuality; of masturbation, incontinence, and perversion; of rape, seduction, and infidelity; of adultery, fornication, and uncleanness -- all these things, as well as many others, are condemned by divine edict and are among Lucifer's chief means of leading souls to hell. Fine distinctions between them are of no particular moment and are not necessary to observance of the divine laws involved. Counsel in the field of chastity is simply: Be Chaste! Encyclopedia of Mormonism, Vol.1, CHASTITY, LAW OFIt was given that name because others misunderstood the story. I agree that it is morally wrong to marry your dead brother's wife and then refuse to impregante her because the children would be his. If that is onanism then I am in compliance with that law and encourage all others to follow it.
Maestrophil Posted November 6, 2014 Posted November 6, 2014 I believe that two 16 year olds who have unlawful and sinful contact in the heat of the moment are absolutely right up there, sin-wise, with the likes of Ted Bundy. I don't understand why anyone would object to this line of thinking. Our young people who commit this most heinous act should know that God considers them *almost* as evil as Tony Soprano... but not quite. I expect this knowledge will be of great comfort to them. A post dripping with sarcasm... This is another thing I hear all the time from people who are offended by the church's stance on sexual sin "I am a good person, two people loving each other can't make them evil" Sheesh - sinners are not evil - the act is evil. When I make mistakes, I know that I am still valued by the Lord and can distance myself from even heinous sins becasue of Christ. I guess people do not like to be told they have done something really bad and will try anything to make it look softer. bdouglas - I am so sorry to hear of your struggles - I am certain the Lord knows your circumstances and your heart and will judge righteously. I wouldn't even dream of condemning you. I DO however hold myslef to that high standard. I have been a victim of adultery in a temple marriage and it is 100% destructive and evil. I can not think of anything short of murder that would have damaged me and my children more. Knowing how deadly painful it is, and always having a testimony of sexual morality stemming from church teachings we are discussing is what has kept me, and will forever keep me from violating my covenants of chastity. In short nobody can convince me that sex outside of marriage is no big deal! MP 1
VideoGameJunkie Posted November 6, 2014 Posted November 6, 2014 MP, but do you feel that masturbation or pre marital sexual relations that aren't fornication are on the same level as adultery in terms of sin? I feel there has to be different levels and everything is judged on an individual basis, knowing the sinner's mental state of mind, etc.
ELF1024 Posted November 6, 2014 Posted November 6, 2014 I think that sexual sin is next to murder is in the Miracle of Forgiveness. There is symmetry in that. One is dealing the with powers of creation in a sinful manner, the other is dealing with denying life thru a sinful action. 1
VideoGameJunkie Posted November 6, 2014 Posted November 6, 2014 (edited) But what if you wear a condom or perform other forms of sexual nature that aren't fornication? You aren't tempting with the powers of creation there. Or is birth control also sinful? I know a lot of Mormons have given in to sexual temptations in there 20s that are still single. It's hard to remain chaste when you're so lonely, but we have to somehow endure even if we've fallen before. I just hope that through the atonement we can become chaste again, because a lot of people have lost being chaste and don't know where to go from there to get back on God's good terms. Edited November 6, 2014 by VideoGameJunkie
sethpayne Posted November 6, 2014 Posted November 6, 2014 (edited) A post dripping with sarcasm... This is another thing I hear all the time from people who are offended by the church's stance on sexual sin "I am a good person, two people loving each other can't make them evil" Oh I'm all for chastity and will certainly teach my children -- if I am blessed to have children someday -- to be chaste. I just think its absurd to even mention pre-marital sex in the same sentence as murder. I'll put it another way. If we accept that pre-marital sex is a sin next to murder, the following statement MUST be true: "Pre-marital sex between consenting adults is more sinful than torturing and maiming innocent animals just for kicks." Or: "A significant number of human beings throughout history are guilty of a sin more serious than securities fraud which deprives seniors of their life savings leaving some destitute while forcing others to work well into their 70s. (Enron, for example)." It isn't necessary to overstate both the seriousness and consequences of unchaste behavior in order to teach kids to be chaste. Edited November 6, 2014 by sethpayne
ELF1024 Posted November 6, 2014 Posted November 6, 2014 But what if you wear a condom or perform other forms of sexual nature that aren't fornication? You aren't tempting with the powers of creation there. Or is birth control also sinful? I know a lot of Mormons have given in to sexual temptations in there 20s that are still single. It's hard to remain chaste when you're so lonely, but we have to somehow endure even if we've fallen before. I just hope that through the atonement we can become chaste again, because a lot of people have lost being chaste and don't know where to go from there to get back on God's good terms. Well there was that guy in the bible who dropped dead because he spilt his seed on the ground.... I'm a big fan of Birth Control... don't get me wrong. You should only have as many kids as you can emotionally, mentally, and economically afford. No need to try and replenish the earth single-handedly...
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted November 6, 2014 Posted November 6, 2014 MP, but do you feel that masturbation or pre marital sexual relations that aren't fornication are on the same level as adultery in terms of sin? I feel there has to be different levels and everything is judged on an individual basis, knowing the sinner's mental state of mind, etc.I am no him, so I will answer with a "no". Why? Because when you are married you made certain covenants. You cannot make them single. So, those sexual sins will never be on course as adultery.
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted November 6, 2014 Posted November 6, 2014 What boggles my mind is a loving couple who have sexual relations are considered greater sinners than Bernie Madoff.If they love each other so much why don't they actually make the vows instead of being unpaid whores. It is so easy to play this game.
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted November 6, 2014 Posted November 6, 2014 The sexual sin that is like unto murder is adultery.This seems to be lost on some. I know in the BoM it is a little nebulous but it has been clarified by our leaders that Adultery is the real problem and is what is "next to murder" Notice that being next to murder has not real quantitative value. How close to murder is it? No one seems to know. The point is that it is a serious sin. Not "Hey I committed adultery all is well". Some seem to think this is no big deal. The big M is not next to murder. Doing your 16 year old girl friend in high school is not next to murder. Adultery is though.
ELF1024 Posted November 6, 2014 Posted November 6, 2014 This seems to be lost on some. I know in the BoM it is a little nebulous but it has been clarified by our leaders that Adultery is the real problem and is what is "next to murder" Notice that being next to murder has not real quantitative value. How close to murder is it? No one seems to know. The point is that it is a serious sin. Not "Hey I committed adultery all is well". Some seem to think this is no big deal. The big M is not next to murder. Doing your 16 year old girl friend in high school is not next to murder. Adultery is though. ...and if we are going to play the moral equivalency game, It might only be Adultery after being temple sealed is close to murder... all you non-temple married sinners are slightly less sinners than those "other" people.
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted November 6, 2014 Posted November 6, 2014 Pretty one sided, she'll be destroyed but but not him. What happens to him if he commits adultery???Face it, God hates it when women sin more than men. God is sexist. 1
halconero Posted November 6, 2014 Posted November 6, 2014 Given how much adultery is used by both Old Testament prophets and New Testament apostles to illustrate the cleaving of covenants between God, Israel, the Church, Husband, and Wife I wonder if anyone can really doubt its gravity. Adultery is often treated by the prophets as an apostasy between spouses. It is damning, and sinful. 1
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted November 6, 2014 Posted November 6, 2014 (edited) ...and if we are going to play the moral equivalency game, It might only be Adultery after being temple sealed is close to murder... all you non-temple married sinners are slightly less sinners than those "other" people.This is correct weather you intend it to be or not. The breaking of covenants is the real problem. And "close" is not the right word. All that can be said is that it is a great crime. or yea, most abominable above all sins save it be the shedding of innocent blood or denying the Holy Ghost? Edited November 6, 2014 by Mola Ram Suda Ram 1
omni Posted November 7, 2014 Posted November 7, 2014 If they love each other so much why don't they actually make the vows instead of being unpaid whores. It is so easy to play this game.So if someone fornicates they're an unpaid whore?
omni Posted November 7, 2014 Posted November 7, 2014 Given how much adultery is used by both Old Testament prophets and New Testament apostles to illustrate the cleaving of covenants between God, Israel, the Church, Husband, and Wife I wonder if anyone can really doubt its gravity. Adultery is often treated by the prophets as an apostasy between spouses. It is damning, and sinful.I haven't read the entire thread, but has anyone been claiming that adultery isn't a big deal?
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