Are All Sexual Sins Really Second Only To Murder?

[Calm]

Well there was that guy in the bible who dropped dead because he spilt his seed on the ground....

I'm a big fan of Birth Control... don't get me wrong. You should only have as many kids as you can emotionally, mentally, and economically afford. No need to try and replenish the earth single-handedly...

Read the story, he was killed because he selfishly used his wife, who was his brother's childless widow, for sexual pleasure while refusing to give her the child that would care for her as her first husband's heir because that child would not benefit him in any way while he would still be required to raise it. Refusing would have been bad enough according to the law, but he went ahead and had sex with her for his pleasure without following through on the reason for it. It would be equivalent to kicking out a wife after having sex with her and forcing her to care for herself in a society where that meant homelessness and poverty quite often. Edited November 7, 2014 by calmoriah

[VideoGameJunkie]

But don't most people have sex for pleasure? Are all those who have sex for pleasure going to be destroyed?

[rodheadlee]

Sorry, I should have been more clear. While establishing that adultery is a horrible sin (I don't personally know anyone that disagrees with this) it does not establish that adultery is next to murder or more specifically the only sexual sin next to murder. 

 

It seemed to me that you were claiming that the church teaches that adultery is the only "sexual sin that is like unto murder." If this is the case, I'd like to have a source to better my understanding of the church's official position. The church says the following in its "For the Strength of Youth Pamphlet":

It was an opinion based on observations of 60 years of life, of which the first 28 were not in the Church.

[rodheadlee]

But what if you wear a condom or perform other forms of sexual nature that aren't fornication? You aren't tempting with the powers of creation there. Or is birth control also sinful? I know a lot of Mormons have given in to sexual temptations in there 20s that are still single. It's hard to remain chaste when you're so lonely, but we have to somehow endure even if we've fallen before. I just hope that through the atonement we can become chaste again, because a lot of people have lost being chaste and don't know where to go from there to get back on God's good terms.

We declare that God’s commandment for His children to multiply and replenish the earth remains in force. We further declare that God has commanded that the sacred powers of procreation are to be employed only between man and woman, lawfully wedded as husband and wife.

WE DECLARE the means by which mortal life is created to be divinely appointed. We affirm the sanctity of life and of its importance in God’s eternal plan.

WE WARN that individuals who violate covenants of chastity, who abuse spouse or offspring, or who fail to fulfill family responsibilities will one day stand accountable before God

 

I

[Calm]

But don't most people have sex for pleasure? Are all those who have sex for pleasure going to be destroyed?

Do most people have sex for pleasure with their spouses then kick them out of the house without a way to care for themselves (as was the culture of the time...by trying to avoid giving his wife a son, he was preventing her from being cared for because it was a son's duty to care for his mother and unwed sister if he received the birthright..a double portion of the inheritance)?

If that is not clear, let me put it this way. He basically raped her. The marriage contract allowed him to have sex with her in exchange for giving her a child/son to inherit her first husband's estate. He voided the contract by refusing to give her that child, thus he had sex with her on a basis she had not consented to, thus he raped her.

And people who rape others, have sex for pleasure without consent will be spiritually destroyed at least if they do not repent.

Edited November 7, 2014 by calmoriah

[Calm]

Given how much adultery is used by both Old Testament prophets and New Testament apostles to illustrate the cleaving of covenants between God, Israel, the Church, Husband, and Wife I wonder if anyone can really doubt its gravity. Adultery is often treated by the prophets as an apostasy between spouses. It is damning, and sinful.

That makes it too easy to understand....won't work. People like difficult explanations, they want to know how many sin units of difference there is between each and every sin so they can tell exactly how many repentance units they must provide to pay for them enough so they can escape punishment while maximizing pleasure.

[Calm]

This is correct weather you intend it to be or not. The breaking of covenants is the real problem. And "close" is not the right word. All that can be said is that it is a great crime. or

Those who think "next to" must mean close....

An example...death of a spouse has been found to be the most stressful thing that can happen to an individual (in general, I suspect rape and torture over an extended period of time would be more stressful, but for the average person's life experiences spouse's death rates most stressful). Divorce is "next to" it in terms of stressfulness for most people. However, divorce is considered to be more than 25% less stressful than a spouse's death. That is tons less stressful even if next in line.

If you are unfamiliar with a life stress measure, see

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holmes_and_Rahe_stress_scale

[rodheadlee]

But what if you wear a condom or perform other forms of sexual nature that aren't fornication? You aren't tempting with the powers of creation there. Or is birth control also sinful? I know a lot of Mormons have given in to sexual temptations in there 20s that are still single. It's hard to remain chaste when you're so lonely, but we have to somehow endure even if we've fallen before. I just hope that through the atonement we can become chaste again, because a lot of people have lost being chaste and don't know where to go from there to get back on God's good terms.

D&C 58

 

42 Behold, he who has repented of his sins, the same is forgiven, and I, the Lord, remember them no more.

 43 By this ye may know if a man repenteth of his sins—behold, he will confess them and forsake them.

 

Isaiah 1 Chapter1

16 ¶Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil;

 17 Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.

 18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

 

VGJ there are talks on receiving a remission of sins of Chastity. I can't find them right now, they are on my other computer.

[VideoGameJunkie]

Rod, I'd love to hear those talks. If you can name them I can search for them on youtube for myself.

[The Nehor]

Here is what Joseph F. Smith said:

 

"The law as given, we believe to be general, applying to all the Saints. But undoubtedly when, in addition to the actual offense against the laws of chastity, covenants are broken, then the punishment for the double offense will, either in this life or that which is to come, be correspondingly greater and more severe.

 

There are said to be more shades of green than of any other color, so also we are of the opinion there are more grades or degrees of sin associated with the improper relationship of the sexes than of any other wrongdoing of which we have knowledge. They all involve a grave offense—the sin against chastity, but in numerous instances this sin is intensified by the breaking of sacred covenants, to which is sometimes added deceit, intimidation or actual violence.

 

Much as all these sins are to be denounced and deplored, we can ourselves see a difference both in intent and consequence between the offense of a young couple who, being betrothed, in an unguarded moment, without premeditation fall into sin, and that of the man, who having entered into holy places and made sacred covenants, plots to rob the wife of his neighbor of her virtue either by cunning or force and accomplish his vile intent."

 

Adultery is usually worse then fornication and fornication is less serious if there is already an intent to marry. In most cases the spiritual consequences are less severe if you are younger and have not made temple covenants and/or have the Melchizedek Priesthood. That being said, it is still serious and cause for repentance.

[Guest]

There are degrees of sexual sin, and sexual sin of the worst kind in third, as murder would be second (if statement is correct) with "sin against the Holy Spirit" being number one.

[VideoGameJunkie]

Well it looks like many people are doomed.

[The Nehor]

Well it looks like many people are doomed.

 

Pretty much.

[VideoGameJunkie]

I'm doomed to hell. I've broken temple covenants with fornication and other forms of pre martial sexual relations multiple times. I've confessed to the Bishop and seen my psychiatrist and gotten medication for my anxiety because breaking the law of chastity after having made temple covenants and fearing hell has been a deep cause of my depression and anxiety in my life, when mixed with my mental condition doesn't go well. Sometimes I think, well I've already crossed the point of no return to damnation, what's the point of even getting up in the morning and trying to go about my day.

[rodheadlee]

I'm doomed to hell. I've broken temple covenants with fornication and other forms of pre martial sexual relations multiple times. I've confessed to the Bishop and seen my psychiatrist and gotten medication for my anxiety because breaking the law of chastity after having made temple covenants and fearing hell has been a deep cause of my depression and anxiety in my life, when mixed with my mental condition doesn't go well. Sometimes I think, well I've already crossed the point of no return to damnation, what's the point of even getting up in the morning and trying to go about my day.

That's B.S.  That is Satan speaking to you. Do not listen. I can't find those talks, they are on a lost hard drive. They were just talks on repentance and forgiveness for adultery from the regular church website.

 

 

I want to add that the key is to pray to Heavenly Father to put your burden onto Jesus Christ. He will remove your pain. That is what He does, Jesus Christ took upon Himself ALL of our infirmities.

Edited November 7, 2014 by rodheadlee

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

So if someone fornicates they're an unpaid whore?

Yeah when you chose to shack up there have been no vows, there is nothing binding. You are essentially giving it up for free. A whore at least gets paid. '

 

Did I mumble or stutter?  You (the general you) are essentially an unpaid whore when you have sex out of wed lock.

 

Less colorful language please. - Mods

Edited November 7, 2014 by Ares

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

But don't most people have sex for pleasure? Are all those who have sex for pleasure going to be destroyed?

I have sex for pleasure. We can't have any more kids at this point. So no, you are not going to be destroyed. What will get you destroyed is adultery.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Those who think "next to" must mean close....

An example...death of a spouse has been found to be the most stressful thing that can happen to an individual (in general, I suspect rape and torture over an extended period of time would be more stressful, but for the average person's life experiences spouse's death rates most stressful). Divorce is "next to" it in terms of stressfulness for most people. However, divorce is considered to be more than 25% less stressful than a spouse's death. That is tons less stressful even if next in line.

If you are unfamiliar with a life stress measure, see

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holmes_and_Rahe_stress_scale

I admitted that there is no quantitative value in the scriptures. So saying next to  or close to or anything like that really doesn't mean much.  Now if Alma had a scale and said that denying the HG was a 10 on the worst things to do and murder was a 9.5. Then said that sexual sin was 9.499999. Then I think says it is "close or next to" might mean a lot more. But we really have no idea what the value of the seriousness is. We just know it is bad.

Edited November 7, 2014 by Mola Ram Suda Ram

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I'm doomed to hell. I've broken temple covenants with fornication and other forms of pre martial sexual relations multiple times. I've confessed to the Bishop and seen my psychiatrist and gotten medication for my anxiety because breaking the law of chastity after having made temple covenants and fearing hell has been a deep cause of my depression and anxiety in my life, when mixed with my mental condition doesn't go well. Sometimes I think, well I've already crossed the point of no return to damnation, what's the point of even getting up in the morning and trying to go about my day.

You can be forgiven. Part of it is forgiving your self. We all make mistakes. And with out Christ we could not do it. Do you really understand that? And I don't mean this in a negative way.  We need a higher power that can help us.

[Jeanne]

Yeah when you chose to shack up there have been no vows, there is nothing binding. You are essentially giving it up for free. A whore at least gets paid. '

 

Did I mumble or stutter?  You (the general you) are essentially an unpaid whore when you have sex out of wed lock.

 

Yeah when you chose to shack up there have been no vows, there is nothing binding. You are essentially giving it up for free. A whore at least gets paid. '

 

Did I mumble or stutter?  You (the general you) are essentially an unpaid whore when you have sex out of wed lock.

I can't believe you said this and believe this...and if this "whore" who doesn't get paid is a loving and wonderful person..damn her!

[Calm]

"

Yeah when you chose to shack up there have been no vows, there is nothing binding. You are essentially giving it up for free. A whore at least gets paid.

If the definition of "whore" is "paid for sex" there is no such thing as an "unpaid whore"...at least intentionally unpaid.

Is "whore" a generic term these days or are you just referring to women? Just checking as I read it as both since neither are benefitting from vows in your view, but historically "whore" is feminine.

There are those who would say giving it up for free is a greater sign of love than insisting there be some sort of contract.

Edited November 7, 2014 by calmoriah

[cinepro]

Yeah when you chose to shack up there have been no vows, there is nothing binding. You are essentially giving it up for free. A whore at least gets paid. '

 

Did I mumble or stutter?  You (the general you) are essentially an unpaid whore when you have sex out of wed lock.

 

Your understanding of human relationships is deep and nuanced.  You should write a book.

[omni]

I can't believe you said this and believe this

Unfortunately, I can.

[Ares]

If you want to keep discussing a topic stay out of the gutter.