Has The Physical Gathering Ceased

[Sleeper Cell]

I am not sure i quite pastured my intent when I titled this. What I have been musing about lately is that we as a Church seem to be intent on gathering the righteous and extracting them from what we deem a lesser environment than working with the people to improve the social environment where they are. This may be more true in America than elsewhere.

American history is largely the story of people seeking a better life by moving out of “lesser neighborhoods“. The Pilgrim story, the westward migrations, etc. are idealized as American epics.

Not sure i agree. Mormonism does seem to improve the lives of those who convert. But, we are not engaged necessarily in making the world a better place in which to live. We seem more to be philosophically aimed at rescuing individuals and pulling them out of bad places, rather than making an impact which changes the bad places. Both are legitimate approaches, I guess.

It seems that whenever we try to improve the social environment, we are accused of violating the separation of church and state, or trying to foist our narrow view of morality on others, or trying to promote capitalism, consumerism, and corporate greed. And heaver forbid that LD$, Inc. should make an innocuous investment (such as a shopping mall) to economically revitalize a neighborhood.

[Stone holm]

American history is largely the story of people seeking a better life by moving out of “lesser neighborhoods“. The Pilgrim story, the westward migrations, etc. are idealized as American epics.

It seems that whenever we try to improve the social environment, we are accused of violating the separation of church and state, or trying to foist our narrow view of morality on others, or trying to promote capitalism, consumerism, and corporate greed. And heaver forbid that LD$, Inc. should make an innocuous investment (such as a shopping mall) to economically revitalize a neighborhood.

I don't recall criticising the shopping mall, I viewed that as more or less a necessity given the area had been allowed to deteriorate. So you feel the proper way to improve poor communities is to prohibit SSM, promote unregulated capitalism and encourage consumption?

[Sleeper Cell]

[/

I don't recall criticising the shopping mall, I viewed that as more or less a necessity given the area had been allowed to deteriorate. So you feel the proper way to improve poor communities is to prohibit SSM, promote unregulated capitalism and encourage consumption?

I don’t recall saying that you did. Nor do I recall advocating unregulated capitalism.

　

Not sure and it is surely above my pay grade, but I suspect I would start by improving their schools and contending for the affection and comradeship of their youth so the modern day Gadianton Robbers do not lure them away with a twisted form of community, make sure their families have adequate food and healthcare, and that their communities have well trained and intelligent police, and work to prevent teenage pregnancies, and advocate for a better foster parent system. Probably something like that.

How is this different from what has been tried for decades? How well has it worked so far?

Faith based organizations have traditionally contended for the affection of their youth, and worked to prevent teenage pregnancy and improve the foster care system. Unfortunately, in many cases, secular agencies seem to be undercutting their efforts. Boy Scouts contend for the affection and comradeship of their youth, but a number of school districts and other jurisdictions refuse to allow them to use public facilities. IIRC, Massachusetts forced the Catholic church to stop providing adoption and foster care services.

It seems a tad unreasonable to ask faith based organizations to get involved unless the government is willing to allow them to take a faith based approach.

[Alan]

North and South America are Zion.

Not exactly true. Joseph went on to say that Zion would go on to encompass the whole world.

[BookofMormonLuvr]

Not exactly true. Joseph went on to say that Zion would go on to encompass the whole world.

Of course "Zion" will fill the earth, but the physical city of Zion/New Jerusalem has its boundaries.

[CV75]

Not sure and it is surely above my pay grade, but I suspect I would start by improving their schools and contending for the affection and comradeship of their youth so the modern day Gadianton Robbers do not lure them away with a twisted form of community, make sure their families have adequate food and healthcare, and that their communities have well trained and intelligent police, and work to prevent teenage pregnancies, and advocate for a better foster parent system. Probably something like that.

But what would be your (and the saints in general) role in this, and how would that differ from what you can already do within your existing community systems, and how would that differ from what the Church encourages the memebrship to do already?

[Stone holm]

Sounds like you want the Church to take on a governmental role in several of these suggestions. Not sure how they can do that.

Interesting you would say that when so many object to the government taking on roles they think the Church does better. But you are right in your observation.

[Stone holm]

But what would be your (and the saints in general) role in this, and how would that differ from what you can already do within your existing community systems, and how would that differ from what the Church encourages the memebrship to do already?

You think so?

[pmccombs1]

To be honestly, I was hoping for a better vision of Zion from it. More spiritual uplift. I didn't experience much of one form that book.

Ah well, Approaching Zion is a social critique with shrewd insights in the tradition of, say, Chesterton's "What's Wrong with the World."

Nibley was a Utopian, to be sure; but his vision was not that of the stereotypical Mormon. He was a stringent anti-capitalist opposed to the modern notion that deserving people "earn" the goods they have. Nibley didn't believe in accumulating so-called "property" to oneself and was concerned about the excesses that we fall into with our material wealth. In some regards, I suppose Nibley followed the Hopi people in their ideas about property. I think he had a great respect and reverence for them.

For Nibley, the sin of Sodom was that of avarice, and he believed that malice was far worse a problem than any weakness one might have.

Finally, Nibley presented all of these disagreeable principles in solid academic prose, without the least hint of kitsch or of maudlin glurge; thus his treatises lacked the standard trigger words and phrases that many Mormons require in order to receive a "spiritual uplift."

It would not surprise me one bit to find that many LDS, who otherwise enjoy Nibley's writings, are vaguely uneasy with Approaching Zion!

What is your better vision of Zion?

Edited July 2, 2013 by pmccombs1

[Stone holm]

But what would be your (and the saints in general) role in this, and how would that differ from what you can already do within your existing community systems, and how would that differ from what the Church encourages the memebrship to do already?

I was thinking about the subject when I woke up this morning, and was wondering -- why hasn't the Church produced a Mother Theresa, a Dorothy Day, or a Ghandi amongst our general membership. I realize that Joseph Smith, Jr. and George A. Smith at times came close as did other Prophets. But what about the general membership?

[Calm]

http://mormon.org/me/bnsz

Be sure and watch the video to see what she is doing with the orphans.

I was raised in a large family outside of Paris. The only girl with eight brothers! It was in my family where I learned the importance of giving and sharing. With nine kids in an apartment, we learned to help each other out. I am a fashion designer and have worked at some of the top fashion houses in Paris, but spent most of my career with Christian Dior. I love little children and find great satisfaction in working with orphans in developing countries like Nepal and Morocco.

Why I am a Mormon

I was raised by wonderful parents as part of another faith. When I was a college student, I had visited the United States and had spent a couple days in Utah. I was impressed with the Mormons and felt something very peaceful there. Then, three years later, the Mormon missionaries knocked on my door. I welcomed them in and began to listen to their message. But I told them that until I knew for sure that what they were teaching me was true, I wasn’t going to join their church. They had given me a Book of Mormon, but I just left it on the table and didn’t open it. Then one day, I saw it sitting there and thought, “I need to read it.” So I started to study it. This began a journey for me of seeking to know for myself if Jesus Christ really lived. One night, I knelt down to pray for an answer to this question. I told myself I wouldn’t stop praying until I had an answer. I prayed all night long, which was something I had never done before. And then the answer came. It’s difficult to describe. It was an overwhelming feeling of peace and of light. Everything was clear. And I knew that Jesus lived and that this was his church, and I couldn’t deny it. The next day I told the missionaries that I knew that Jesus lived and that what they were teaching me was true. I was baptized soon after that. I am a Mormon because I came to know that it was truly the church of Jesus Christ. That was more than 37 years ago and I have tried ever since to live my life as Jesus would want me to.

How I live my faith

I live my faith by trying to do what Jesus taught. He asked us to serve others, to reach out to the poor and the needy, to comfort the sick and downtrodden. I have dedicated my life to this.

Edited July 2, 2013 by calmoriah

[Calm]

I also know several families that arrange their vacations around collecting donations for orphanages in various countries and then they spend the vacation handing out materials and living with the people, teaching and helping in other ways.

If you go to the "I am a Mormon" site and type in orphanages, you will find a number of young people who have already devoted service time to such or plan on doing so. Sister Pelous is the one who is the most organized and time committed that I've come across yet though.

Edited July 2, 2013 by calmoriah

[CV75]

You think so?

That makes no sense!

The question is: "But what would be your (and the saints in general) role in this, and how would that differ from what you can already do within your existing community systems, and how would that differ from what the Church encourages the memebrship to do already?"

Please just answer it!

[Scott Lloyd]

I am not sure i quite pastured my intent when I titled this. What I have been musing about lately is that we as a Church seem to be intent on gathering the righteous and extracting them from what we deem a lesser environment than working with the people to improve the social environment where they are. This may be more true in America than elsewhere.

Haven't yet read through this thread, so I don't know if this has been quoted yet, but perhaps this statement from President Benson applies here:

The Lord works from the inside out. The world works from the outside in. The world would take people out of the slums. Christ takes the slums out of people, and then they take themselves out of the slums. The world would mold men by changing their environment. Christ changes men, who then change their environment. The world would shape human behavior, but Christ can change human nature.

[Tacenda]

That makes no sense!

The question is: "But what would be your (and the saints in general) role in this, and how would that differ from what you can already do within your existing community systems, and how would that differ from what the Church encourages the memebrship to do already?"

Please just answer it!

I'll bite. I know family is huge and maybe the church could offer help that way, aside from throwing it all on the RS President or HP Group Leader. Some actual programs in place to help with a gamut of things people need. I know the church does have help for unemployed people, so we can cross that off the list. But maybe some classes, possibly marriage seminars. I could pull up several churches that do this for their congregations. I think the church does well with youth programs and concentrates well that way. But I'm sure there are things they could do for the older folk. Cal mentioned the government, I thought the church wanted us to become free of relying on government, besides the government doesn't offer seminars for married couples anyway. Maybe things like that.

[Kenngo1969]

Haven't yet read through this thread, so I don't know if this has been quoted yet, but perhaps this statement from President Benson applies here:

The Lord works from the inside out. The world works from the outside in. The world would take people out of the slums. Christ takes the slums out of people, and then they take themselves out of the slums. The world would mold men by changing their environment. Christ changes men, who then change their environment. The world would shape human behavior, but Christ can change human nature.

It has. Avatar4321 beat you to it, but it does bear repeating. And great minds think alike!

[Kenngo1969]

Having seen my parents serve a service mission, and having worked at my Bishop's elbow for the last 19 months, I can testify that The Church of Jesus Christ does much more to meet temporal needs than most people (including the most active of members, in many cases) realize.

[Avatar4321]

Not exactly true. Joseph went on to say that Zion would go on to encompass the whole world.

Last time I checked North and South America are part of the world.

[Avatar4321]

Ah well, Approaching Zion is a social critique with shrewd insights in the tradition of, say, Chesterton's "What's Wrong with the World."

Nibley was a Utopian, to be sure; but his vision was not that of the stereotypical Mormon. He was a stringent anti-capitalist opposed to the modern notion that deserving people "earn" the goods they have. Nibley didn't believe in accumulating so-called "property" to oneself and was concerned about the excesses that we fall into with our material wealth. In some regards, I suppose Nibley followed the Hopi people in their ideas about property. I think he had a great respect and reverence for them.

For Nibley, the sin of Sodom was that of avarice, and he believed that malice was far worse a problem than any weakness one might have.

Finally, Nibley presented all of these disagreeable principles in solid academic prose, without the least hint of kitsch or of maudlin glurge; thus his treatises lacked the standard trigger words and phrases that many Mormons require in order to receive a "spiritual uplift."

It would not surprise me one bit to find that many LDS, who otherwise enjoy Nibley's writings, are vaguely uneasy with Approaching Zion!

What is your better vision of Zion?

I dont think I was looking for trigger words. I think the problem is i was looking for more spiritual guidence in an academic book and found more of his own personal viewpoints than necessarily the spiritual aspects I was looking for.

As for my better vision of Zion, I dont know that I have one per se. Im still looking to the Lord to help me understand Zion and do my part to build it in my own life and in my family life.

[Avatar4321]

I was thinking about the subject when I woke up this morning, and was wondering -- why hasn't the Church produced a Mother Theresa, a Dorothy Day, or a Ghandi amongst our general membership. I realize that Joseph Smith, Jr. and George A. Smith at times came close as did other Prophets. But what about the general membership?

should we expect the world to recognize those among us like that?

[Avatar4321]

It has. Avatar4321 beat you to it, but it does bear repeating. And great minds think alike!

Great minds do think alike. And fools rarely differ.

I think i fall in the latter category myself though.

[Scott Lloyd]

Great minds do think alike. And fools rarely differ.

I think i fall in the latter category myself though.

While Avatar4321 is exhibiting admirable self-deprecation and humility here, he is, by implication, dragging me to the depths with him.

Which may not be a bad thing, I suppose.

[Stone holm]

should we expect the world to recognize those among us like that?

You think there is some kind of media blanket that prevents such recognition?

[Scott Lloyd]

You think there is some kind of media blanket that prevents such recognition?

I don't think that's what Avatar4321 is saying.

I read him as saying that the world at large often doesn't recognize greatness. I would agree with that.

[Stone holm]

I don't think that's what Avatar4321 is saying.

I read him as saying that the world at large often doesn't recognize greatness. I would agree with that.

Possibly, or has a different definition of "greatness", though not sure how that relates to the examples mentioned.