Has The Physical Gathering Ceased

[BookofMormonLuvr]

How so?

We Saints do good at the no alcohol, no tobacco, no drug thing... as do they. But they do MUCH better at the little meat, more grains and veggies thing than we do.

[BookofMormonLuvr]

^{Anyhoo, I do not believe the physical gathering has ceased since this has not occurred...}

Doctrine and Covenants 45:68

68 And it shall come to pass among the wicked, that every man that will not take his sword against his neighbor must needs flee unto Zion for safety.

An actual physical location, already indicated by the Lord, is yet to be built as a refuge for those in the world who refuse to enter into the bloodshed to be poured out upon the earth. How can we build such a city if we don't gather? Edited July 1, 2013 by BookofMormonLuvr

[Stone holm]

^{Anyhoo, I do not believe the physical gathering has ceased since this has not occurred...}

An actual physical location, already indicated by the Lord, is yet to be built as a refuge for those in the world who refuse to enter into the bloodshed to be poured out upon the earth. How can we build such a city if we don't gather?

Interesting paradox create a sanctuary city or be part of a stone that fills the Earth....one run and hide, the other proclaim the good news...one pessimism run rampant, the other optimistic to excess....what to chose, survivalist or glad hander...

[BookofMormonLuvr]

Interesting paradox create a sanctuary city or be part of a stone that fills the Earth....one run and hide, the other proclaim the good news...one pessimism run rampant, the other optimistic to excess....what to chose, survivalist or glad hander...

So you believe God was telling us to "run & hide" when He commanded us to build Zion? Interesting. I believe as stated in 3rd Nephi that the city of to be built is a testimony to the world of the work of God... the shining city on the hill that will make the world wonder after it and want to go their to "learn of her ways" as it says in Isaiah. I am disappointed that a latter-day Saint would have such a low conception of the wonderful promise of the city of Zion. Zion is one of the most wonderful teachings of the Restoration!

[Stone holm]

So you believe God was telling us to "run & hide" when He commanded us to build Zion? Interesting. I believe as stated in 3rd Nephi that the city of to be built is a testimony to the world of the work of God... the shining city on the hill that will make the world wonder after it and want to go their to "learn of her ways" as it says in Isaiah. I am disappointed that a latter-day Saint would have such a low conception of the wonderful promise of the city of Zion. Zion is one of the most wonderful teachings of the Restoration!

Yes, well disappoint a lot of people. Yes, there is the glorious Zion of the last days. There is also what is frequently called remnant theology where a remnant of the righteous go off and restart their community. Survivalism is a pretty strong strain amongst Mormons who have to repeatedly be told not to stockpile sniper rifles and ammo. Today about the closest come to City building is buying up land around Temple Square to try and ward off slums, and historical renovation of Nauvoo. I kind of like the idea of restoring Nauvoo -- but to really make it rip, they are going to have to open an LDS Community College there or branch of BYU or something like that.

[BookofMormonLuvr]

Yes, well disappoint a lot of people. Yes, there is the glorious Zion of the last days. There is also what is frequently called remnant theology where a remnant of the righteous go off and restart their community. Survivalism is a pretty strong strain amongst Mormons who have to repeatedly be told not to stockpile sniper rifles and ammo. Today about the closest come to City building is buying up land around Temple Square to try and ward off slums, and historical renovation of Nauvoo. I kind of like the idea of restoring Nauvoo -- but to really make it rip, they are going to have to open an LDS Community College there or branch of BYU or something like that.

The reason people will flee there is precisely because they will not lift up their swords against their neighbors, the scriptures say they will be the only people not at war with one another. The LDS Church has dropped the ball terribly on this, if a former Bishop thinks so little of redeeming the land of Zion and building the promised holy city. Edited July 1, 2013 by BookofMormonLuvr

[Stone holm]

The reason people will flee there is precisely because they will not lift up their swords against their neighbors, the scriptures say they will be the only people not at war with one another. The LDS Church has dropped the ball terribly on this, if a former Bishop thinks so little of redeeming the land of Zion and building the promised holy city.

Zion will be restored, of that I have no doubt. Will it be a refuge city, not so sure about that. There will be a refuge during the wars. Zion will be restored. There are two trains of thought on that in that some believe that Zion was taken up -- hence the phrase Zion has fled -- and that likewise it will be miraculously restored, in other words come back from wherever it fled to. Eliza Snow argued that it is up in space somewhere in a hymn that is no longer in the hymnbook. On the other hand, it is also argued that there are plans for the building of the Temple in Zion which will be different than existing Temples in that it will have judgment halls, possibly translation rooms, etc. Obviously, the Saints intended to build a Temple in Zion. And it is commonly referenced that the Saints will be called back to Missouri. Whether the refuge city that will exist prior to the restoration of Zion is the literal Zion in Missouri, I am not sure of and would defer to others more knowledgeable than I on that subject. Although it is my understanding that the reason that they will not be attacked is that a fear shall come upon the other contending parties and the contending parties will be afraid to go up against them. However, survivalism does run strong amongst a segment of the Mormon community.

The LDS Church does not lay as much emphasis on Missouri (although it is important in the millenial theology), as does several of the other Restorationist Churches. I believe there is amongst the common beliefs (not doctrinal) some question as to whether we are going to build Zion in Missouri, or whether it is going to more or less come down out of the sky. Obviously, we believe that Zion and Jerusalem will both be geographically important in the Millenium.

Edited July 1, 2013 by Stone holm

[Avatar4321]

I agree, the point is our program is aimed a rescuing individuals, not changing communities.

We change communities by changing indivivduals and families.

[Avatar4321]

More of what?

To be honestly, I was hoping for a better vision of Zion from it. More spiritual uplift. I didn't experience much of one form that book.

[Avatar4321]

^{Anyhoo, I do not believe the physical gathering has ceased since this has not occurred...}

An actual physical location, already indicated by the Lord, is yet to be built as a refuge for those in the world who refuse to enter into the bloodshed to be poured out upon the earth. How can we build such a city if we don't gather?

Zion shall be in many locations.

[Stone holm]

Zion shall be in many locations.

Yes and no. Zion is where the pure in heart dwell -- in that sense yes. Zion is also a specific city which will be located in Missouri according to Mormon doctrine and belief -- in that sense no. We are currently gathering to Stakes of Zion which are like the stakes of a tent with the center pole eventually to be in Missouri.

[Questing Beast]

... I believe there is amongst the common beliefs (not doctrinal) some question as to whether we are going to build Zion in Missouri, or whether it is going to more or less come down out of the sky. Obviously, we believe that Zion and Jerusalem will both be geographically important in the Millenium.

"The Lord hath brought down Zion from above

The Lord hath brought up Zion from beneath..."

[The Nehor]

Yes I think you are correct on both points. We have a rescue extraction program in the USA which pulls people out of the "bad" neighborhoods. In poverty stricken countries where there is a limited supply of "good" neighborhoods we are more prone to try and go in and effect change. Does anyone have any ideas why we more or less abandon the slums in the USA?

Because it is a hard sell to convince members to move to the slums or to convince them to stay when they can leave?

Or are you saying we should spend tithing money gentrifying slums?

[Stone holm]

"The Lord hath brought down Zion from above

The Lord hath brought up Zion from beneath..."

Well that solves that problem and they meet on the surface, I think maybe I will want to stand at the edge and watch that particular melding.

[Questing Beast]

The "edge" is well over a thousand miles from the opposite "edge", big enough to encompass SLC and Jackson County MO....

[Stone holm]

Because it is a hard sell to convince members to move to the slums or to convince them to stay when they can leave?

Or are you saying we should spend tithing money gentrifying slums?

No. Not recommending doing anymore slum gentrification than they already did around Temple Square. But perhaps trying to tweak them a little bit so they gradually became something less downtrodden. Its a difficult issue, because I can sympathize, in fact would be a hypocrite, if I said we should start moving into the slums. It is difficult because peer groups are incredibly important in rearing kids so you don't want Mormon families raising their kids where drugs and prostitution and violence are basically out of control -- on the other hand, not sure we are doing much to help solve the problems in those areas where drugs, prostitution and violence are out of control. We just sort of pull people out of them when we can. [Disclaimer this comment does not necessarily apply to overseas endeavors.] Its kind of like we are skimming off the cream and letting the rest continue to sour. Not saying that isn't a legitimate approach, just saying not sure that is the only approach.

[Stone holm]

The "edge" is well over a thousand miles from the opposite "edge", big enough to encompass SLC and Jackson County MO....

You think?

[Avatar4321]

Yes and no. Zion is where the pure in heart dwell -- in that sense yes. Zion is also a specific city which will be located in Missouri according to Mormon doctrine and belief -- in that sense no. We are currently gathering to Stakes of Zion which are like the stakes of a tent with the center pole eventually to be in Missouri.

North and South America are Zion.

[Questing Beast]

If the "New Jerusalem" http://biblehub.com/revelation/21-16.htm is the same as "Zion coming down from above", then yes, it is c. 1,379 miles across....

[Stone holm]

If the "New Jerusalem" http://biblehub.com/revelation/21-16.htm is the same as "Zion coming down from above", then yes, it is c. 1,379 miles across....

Interesting and the size of Jerusalem?

[Calm]

You still haven't given any suggestions as to how the Church should go about helping out in the slums besides giving individuals a chance to improve themselves.

[Avatar4321]

You still haven't given any suggestions as to how the Church should go about helping out in the slums besides giving individuals a chance to improve themselves.

Reminds me of what President Benson said:

The Lord works from the inside out. The world works from the outside in. The world would take people out of the slums. Christ takes the slums out of people, and then they take themselves out of the slums. The world would mold men by changing their environment. Christ changes men, who then change their environment. The world would shape human behavior, but Christ can change human nature.

“Human nature can be changed, here and now,” said President McKay, and then he quoted the following:

“‘

You can change human nature. No man who has felt in him the Spirit of Christ even for half a minute can deny this truth. …

“‘You do change human nature, your own human nature, if you surrender it to Christ. Human nature can be changed here and now. Human nature has been changed in the past. Human nature must be changed on an enormous scale in the future, unless the world is to be drowned in its own blood. And only Christ can change it.

"Twelve men did quite a lot to change the world [nineteen hundred] years ago. Twelve simple men.’” (Quoting Beverly Nichols, in Stepping Stones to an Abundant Life, comp. Llewelyn R. McKay, Salt Lake City: Deseret Book, 1971, pp. 23, 127.)

Yes, Christ changes men, and changed men can change the world. (Born of God)

[Kenngo1969]

I don't think I agree. What about the perpetual education fund? That helps educate people in poverty to help them return and bless their communities.

Really? How many do you think go back to depressed neighbourhoods? No again that is rescuing individuals.

You're assuming they leave, Stoneholm. They can't get an education where they are and then utilize that education to benefit their communities?

[Stone holm]

You still haven't given any suggestions as to how the Church should go about helping out in the slums besides giving individuals a chance to improve themselves.

Not sure and it is surely above my pay grade, but I suspect I would start by improving their schools and contending for the affection and comradeship of their youth so the modern day Gadianton Robbers do not lure them away with a twisted form of community, make sure their families have adequate food and healthcare, and that their communities have well trained and intelligent police, and work to prevent teenage pregnancies, and advocate for a better foster parent system. Probably something like that.

[Calm]

Not sure and it is surely above my pay grade, but I suspect I would start by improving their schools and contending for the affection and comradeship of their youth so the modern day Gadianton Robbers do not lure them away with a twisted form of community, make sure their families have adequate food and healthcare, and that their communities have well trained and intelligent police, and work to prevent teenage pregnancies, and advocate for a better foster parent system. Probably something like that.

Sounds like you want the Church to take on a governmental role in several of these suggestions. Not sure how they can do that.