Has The Physical Gathering Ceased

[Stone holm]

I am not sure i quite pastured my intent when I titled this. What I have been musing about lately is that we as a Church seem to be intent on gathering the righteous and extracting them from what we deem a lesser environment than working with the people to improve the social environment where they are. This may be more true in America than elsewhere.

[Questing Beast]

One of my beefs: the Church is out to increase numbers above all other concerns. A high enough percentage stay with the Church to make such a scatter gun approach practical, and the inflated numbers look good when statistics time comes around each year. As I told my sons before they went on their missions: you are looking for those who are looking for something better than what they already have, you are not looking to change anyone's mind, especially those who already have their own religion that they are devoted to.

Mormons don't live demonstrably better lives than other religiously devoted people. With the exception of the Word of Wisdom, Mormons are not unique either in their religious perspective or their family life. That's mostly because the average Mormon is not noticeably different in what s/he does throughout the week. Nearly everyone entertains the same fatuous pursuits and eats the same excessive foods and holds the same "us and them" attitude about the rest of the world, etc....

[Stone holm]

One of my beefs: the Church is out to increase numbers above all other concerns. A high enough percentage stay with the Church to make such a scatter gun approach practical, and the inflated numbers look good when statistics time comes around each year. As I told my sons before they went on their missions: you are looking for those who are looking for something better than what they already have, you are not looking to change anyone's mind, especially those who already have their own religion that they are devoted to.

Mormons don't live demonstrably better lives than other religiously devoted people. With the exception of the Word of Wisdom, Mormons are not unique either in their religious perspective or their family life. That's mostly because the average Mormon is not noticeably different in what s/he does throughout the week. Nearly everyone entertains the same fatuous pursuits and eats the same excessive foods and holds the same "us and them" attitude about the rest of the world, etc....

Not sure i agree. Mormonism does seem to improve the lives of those who convert. But, we are not engaged necessarily in making the world a better place in which to live. We seem more to be philosophically aimed at rescuing individuals and pulling them out of bad places, rather than making an impact which changes the bad places. Both are legitimate approaches, I guess.

[Duncan]

I have heard that's one of the disadvantages of the recent mormon.org campaign, we are just like you! but if that's true why would anyone join to be what you are now? I want Dallas but all I am getting is Coronation Street

[futuremissionary]

I am not sure i quite pastured my intent when I titled this. What I have been musing about lately is that we as a Church seem to be intent on gathering the righteous and extracting them from what we deem a lesser environment than working with the people to improve the social environment where they are. This may be more true in America than elsewhere.

We are talking about the literal gathering of the righteous to one physical location, right? I think that made more sense in an era when Mormons were being physically persecuted and when information couldn't be passed quickly across the world. Now we have satellite broadcasts and, internet making long-distance communications easier. If every living person has access to the words of the prophet, I don't believe that a gathering needs to be a literal thing.

[Stone holm]

We are talking about the literal gathering of the righteous to one physical location, right? I think that made more sense in an era when Mormons were being physically persecuted and when information couldn't be passed quickly across the world. Now we have satellite broadcasts and, internet making long-distance communications easier. If every living person has access to the words of the prophet, I don't believe that a gathering needs to be a literal thing.

Yeah that type of gathering has ceased, but now we try to extract people out of bad neighbourhoods rather than try to fix the neighbourhood.

[futuremissionary]

Yeah that type of gathering has ceased, but now we try to extract people out of bad neighbourhoods rather than try to fix the neighbourhood.

I don't think I agree. What about the perpetual education fund? That helps educate people in poverty to help them return and bless their communities.

[Stone holm]

I don't think I agree. What about the perpetual education fund? That helps educate people in poverty to help them return and bless their communities.

Really? How many do you think go back to depressed neighbourhoods? No again that is rescuing individuals.

[CV75]

I am not sure i quite pastured my intent when I titled this. What I have been musing about lately is that we as a Church seem to be intent on gathering the righteous and extracting them from what we deem a lesser environment than working with the people to improve the social environment where they are. This may be more true in America than elsewhere.

We gather the spiritually receptive to make spiritual covenants with the Lord: “Ye elders of Israel, come join now with me / And seek out the righteous, where’er they may be— / In desert, on mountain, on land, or on sea— / And bring them to Zion, the pure and the free.”

In turn, they (we) become a light to their (our) neighbors, “where’er they (we) may be.” This would generally serve as a spiritual and temporal leavening for communities, leading to societal among many other benefits.

"Service" missions may be a more direct and immediate temporal improvement on a community, and I suspect this is accomplsihed more outside the USA.

[Stone holm]

We gather the spiritually receptive to make spiritual covenants with the Lord: “Ye elders of Israel, come join now with me / And seek out the righteous, where’er they may be— / In desert, on mountain, on land, or on sea— / And bring them to Zion, the pure and the free.”

In turn, they (we) become a light to their (our) neighbors, “where’er they (we) may be.” This would generally serve as a spiritual and temporal leavening for communities, leading to societal among many other benefits.

"Service" missions may be a more direct and immediate temporal improvement on a community, and I suspect this is accomplsihed more outside the USA.

Yes I think you are correct on both points. We have a rescue extraction program in the USA which pulls people out of the "bad" neighborhoods. In poverty stricken countries where there is a limited supply of "good" neighborhoods we are more prone to try and go in and effect change. Does anyone have any ideas why we more or less abandon the slums in the USA?

[Questing Beast]

Not sure i agree. Mormonism does seem to improve the lives of those who convert. But, we are not engaged necessarily in making the world a better place in which to live. We seem more to be philosophically aimed at rescuing individuals and pulling them out of bad places, rather than making an impact which changes the bad places. Both are legitimate approaches, I guess.

"Zion" is always a place where the world is kept back by the righteous living of those who live in and build Zion. So yes, a large part of the gospel living paradigm is to change the world into a paradise as much as possible.

I agree that individuals who had crap lives before joining the Church enjoy a huge uptick in the quality of life from gospel living. But those who were already elevated, spiritual persons will find little or no change to their lives by becoming "Mormon". These seem in the extreme minority in any case, because people already accustomed to a spiritual life, i.e. usually a religious life too, are not typically drawn to change "ships"....

[Stone holm]

"Zion" is always a place where the world is kept back by the righteous living of those who live in and build Zion. So yes, a large part of the gospel living paradigm is to change the world into a paradise as much as possible.

I agree that individuals who had crap lives before joining the Church enjoy a huge uptick in the quality of life from gospel living. But those who were already elevated, spiritual persons will find little or no change to their lives by becoming "Mormon". These seem in the extreme minority in any case, because people already accustomed to a spiritual life, i.e. usually a religious life too, are not typically drawn to change "ships"....

True, you often see a pattern in testimonies -- at least at the tail end of the 20th Century, of people who no longer believed in organized religion getting a testimony of the Church because it seemed vigorous and alive with a personal current connection to God and changing the world. Actually, it was probably more aimed at changing the convert than changing the world.

[Alan]

The whole purpose of the church, in my view, is to provide a mechanism for us to establish Zion.

Zion is the pure in heart, hence the focus on the individual. As someone converts and embarks on a purification of the heart process Zion comes a little closer to fruition. Once we have a critical mass, we're in business!

One of my favourite books is Approaching Zion by Nibley. It's a great read, and there isn't much to disagree with. However, the downside is that it is pretty obvious that we are at least as far, if not further, from establishing Zion now as we were in Brother Brigham's day. We have unconsciously tried to develop some kind of Zion/Babylon hybrid. The problem however is that they cannot co-exist. Babylon contaminates Zion the moment they come into contact.

So it's a big task. We can only do it ourselves, the church can't do it for us.

[Calm]

Does anyone have any ideas why we more or less abandon the slums in the USA?

It is not as if the Church tells people to move out of the slums when they get baptized, get better educated, get better jobs, etc. The people choose to do so themselves from what I've seen. This appears to me to be pretty typical American behaviour.

[Questing Beast]

The whole purpose of the church, in my view, is to provide a mechanism for us to establish Zion.

Zion is the pure in heart, hence the focus on the individual. As someone converts and embarks on a purification of the heart process Zion comes a little closer to fruition. Once we have a critical mass, we're in business!

One of my favourite books is Approaching Zion by Nibley. It's a great read, and there isn't much to disagree with. However, the downside is that it is pretty obvious that we are at least as far, if not further, from establishing Zion now as we were in Brother Brigham's day. We have unconsciously tried to develop some kind of Zion/Babylon hybrid. The problem however is that they cannot co-exist. Babylon contaminates Zion the moment they come into contact.

So it's a big task. We can only do it ourselves, the church can't do it for us.

I was so impressed by Nibley's pov about "approaching Zion" that I gave copies of that book to family members and friends, for a very brief while, as I could not afford it! Yes, the world is far from being "Zion". But the vision of what such a society is supposed to function like is not exclusive to Mormons, and I believe that "Zion" is being built everywhere, small pieces at a time. "Babylon" is only a concept, so is "Zion". Babylon is "every man for himself, to conquer according to his strength", etc. Zion is everyone concerned over the welfare of everyone else, and the well being of the planet, etc. In that sense "Zion" is growing rather than fading....

[Avatar4321]

I was not that impressed with Approaching Zion. I was expecting more from it.

I am not convinced the physical gathering is over, though i dont think it takes the same form right now. I've been thinking that the way our communication and social networking is developing is to help us with this gathering. We can be physically in different locations and yet capable of fellowshiping with people all around the world. But i dont know the future or how everything is going to work.

[Alan]

I was so impressed by Nibley's pov about "approaching Zion" that I gave copies of that book to family members and friends, for a very brief while, as I could not afford it! Yes, the world is far from being "Zion". But the vision of what such a society is supposed to function like is not exclusive to Mormons, and I believe that "Zion" is being built everywhere, small pieces at a time. "Babylon" is only a concept, so is "Zion". Babylon is "every man for himself, to conquer according to his strength", etc. Zion is everyone concerned over the welfare of everyone else, and the well being of the planet, etc. In that sense "Zion" is growing rather than fading....

I agree with you that we are not the only people engaged in this process. Can't find the scripture in the D&C right now which speaks of "Holy men, that ye know not of", but would present it as strong evidence to supoort your view.

[CV75]

Does anyone have any ideas why we more or less abandon the slums in the USA?

We don't -- my own son served his mission in slums, and I know many missioanrioes serving in slums.

[Stone holm]

It is not as if the Church tells people to move out of the slums when they get baptized, get better educated, get better jobs, etc. The people choose to do so themselves from what I've seen. This appears to me to be pretty typical American behaviour.

I agree, the point is our program is aimed a rescuing individuals, not changing communities.

[pmccombs1]

I was not that impressed with Approaching Zion. I was expecting more from it.

More of what?

[Calm]

I agree, the point is our program is aimed a rescuing individuals, not changing communities.

Depends on what program you are talking about.

The Clean Water humanitarian project is definitely about changing communities.

How would you suggest the Church go about "changing communities" though conversion?

Edited July 1, 2013 by calmoriah

[thesometimesaint]

We change communities one person at a time.

[Stone holm]

We change communities one person at a time.

Sometimes. Or we just pull one person at a time out of a community.

[BookofMormonLuvr]

One of my beefs: the Church is out to increase numbers above all other concerns. A high enough percentage stay with the Church to make such a scatter gun approach practical, and the inflated numbers look good when statistics time comes around each year. As I told my sons before they went on their missions: you are looking for those who are looking for something better than what they already have, you are not looking to change anyone's mind, especially those who already have their own religion that they are devoted to.

Mormons don't live demonstrably better lives than other religiously devoted people. With the exception of the Word of Wisdom, Mormons are not unique either in their religious perspective or their family life. That's mostly because the average Mormon is not noticeably different in what s/he does throughout the week. Nearly everyone entertains the same fatuous pursuits and eats the same excessive foods and holds the same "us and them" attitude about the rest of the world, etc....

The Seventh-Day Adventists do a far better job then the Saints on this... LDS, RLDS, or otherwise.

[Stone holm]

The Seventh-Day Adventists do a far better job then the Saints on this... LDS, RLDS, or otherwise.

How so?