How Complete Is God'S Foreknowledge?

[Mudcat]

Hi all,

Been a while since I started a thread, so for those that may not know me. I am an EV Christian, my wife and her side of the family is LDS.

Got in an interesting discussion with my FIL a couple days ago. My own view is that God's knowledge of all future events is just as certain as his knowledge of all present and past events. My FIL, expressed that he did not think God had a complete foreknowledge, in the sense that God didn't know exactly what everyone was going to do. He did suggest that God fully knew what He himself would do in any possible situation.

What started the conversation, was actually a discussion on Calvinism and Arminianism.. as he was reading a reply I was putting together in response to Calvinist.

The conversation got a bit fragmented because, I was more or less on the fence trying to field questions about my own particular beliefs. Some of the Scriptures that shape my view on the topic, present some challenges to his position, in that they seem to point to God's awareness of specific future events... but it wasn't an argumentative type conversation. Regardless we didn't get a chance to discuss why he believed as he did on the matter. IIRC, I have heard some form of his view expressed on this forum in the past and thought I would inquire.

I do not know if there is a lot of variance on the view of God and foreknowledge or if this is one of those gray areas that there is congecture on.

If you hold to a limited view of foreknowledge, why is it that you do? Are there Scriptures or logical deductive reasoning or something like that to support your view? If so what is it?

Regards,

Mudcat

Edited June 25, 2013 by Mudcat

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

God has no limits on what he knowledge...he who created all things, or show his Son how too.

Edited June 26, 2013 by Bill “Papa” Lee

[Duncan]

I personally don't know what the implications are of his foreknowledge, I am confused about it myself

[Ahab]

If you hold to a limited view of foreknowledge, why is it that you do? Are there Scriptures or logical deductive reasoning or something like that to support your view? If so what is it?

I think my view of his view qualifies as a limited view of his foreknowledge. I know he knows everything that will happen, because nothing that happens is new, but I don't view that as a limit on what we can accomplish. It's just that he knows everything we will do from among all we can do because he knows all the possible choices we can choose from.

[CV75]

If you hold to a limited view of foreknowledge, why is it that you do? Are there Scriptures or logical deductive reasoning or something like that to support your view? If so what is it?

Yes, His foreknowledge is complete as far as we are concerned from our perspective in this life. Anything we can envision with precision (which are few), He can envision with utmost accuracy. And the innumerable things we cannot envision, He does, with great ease.

There are some theological and doctrinal issues that qualify this. Where knowledge is based on faith, and increased faith is based on the acquisition of that faith-based knowledge, “foreknowledge” can be considered to be a form of advanced faith. LDS doctrine allows that God operates with faith as well as knowledge. For example, in sending His Son to earth, He knew / foreknew that all His children would be guaranteed physical and spiritual salvation.

Another principle is agency, which God exercises in perfection, which contributes to His management of perfect faith and perfect knowledge and their interplay (giving Him foreknowledge). He has given us our agency, which we do not exercise in perfection.

It is my belief that while He envisions our exaltation, and knows we will be exalted through the Atonement of His Son, and does all He can for us to achieve exaltation, He does not know our actual realization of this blessing until the moment we choose to—He reserved that one unforeseeable outcome for us by giving us our agency, and when we return that agency to Him in a fullness, then we are one with Him, and the realization of our exaltation is accomplished, and He knows it, and we know it.

[Danzo]

Some people think that because he has foreknowledge, it means that he has taken away agency. I don't think it is true. Just because you can predict what someone does, doesn't mean you cause it. In other words, the persons agency has created the future that you seen, not the other way around.

Hope I make some sense.

[MDalby]

2 The same which knoweth all things, for all things are present before mine eyes;

(D&C 38:2)

The great Jehovah contemplated the whole of the events connected with the earth, pertaining to the plan of salvation, before it rolled into existence, or ever "the morning stars sang together" for joy; the past, the present, and the future were and are, with Him, one eternal "now;" he knew of the fall of Adam, the iniquities of the antediluvians, of the depth of iniquity that would be connected with the human family, their weakness and strength, their power and glory, apostasies, their crimes, their righteousness and iniquity; He comprehended the fall of man, and his redemption; He knew the plan of salvation and pointed it out; He was acquainted with the situation of all nations and with their destiny; He ordered all things according to the council of His own will; He knows the situation of both the living and the dead, and has made ample provision for their redemption, according to their several circumstances, and the laws of the kingdom of God, whether in this world, or in the world to come.

(Joseph Smith, History of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 4: 597)

Edited June 26, 2013 by MDalby

[Duncan]

Some people think that because he has foreknowledge, it means that he has taken away agency. I don't think it is true. Just because you can predict what someone does, doesn't mean you cause it. In other words, the persons agency has created the future that you seen, not the other way around.

Hope I make some sense.

true but if you see your child going to commit say suicide or kill someone wouldn't you try to stop it? It seems that God honoring agency means that he is a passive person and just allows us to do whatever we want and he doesn't step in at all

[Nevo]

If you hold to a limited view of foreknowledge, why is it that you do? Are there Scriptures or logical deductive reasoning or something like that to support your view? If so what is it?

I hold that God's foreknowledge is limited because I believe that unlimited foreknowledge entails determinism and negates agency (free will). And, yes, there are scriptures that support the view that God's foreknowledge is limited. Terence Fretheim discusses several of them at length in his classic work, The Suffering of God: An Old Testament Perspective (see pp. 45-59).

The late Clark Pinnock, the well-known Evangelical open theist, outlined what is at stake: "If the future is not open, then neither God nor humanity can contribute anything to it. If it is open, however, our decisions are possibilities until we actualize them. Therefore, we are motivated to make the best choices and not fall back into resignation. Knowing that what will transpire in the future is still being decided inclines us to assume responsibility for the future" (Pinnock, The Most Moved Mover, 137).

Edited June 26, 2013 by Nevo

[Mudcat]

Yes, His foreknowledge is complete as far as we are concerned from our perspective in this life. Anything we can envision with precision (which are few), He can envision with utmost accuracy. And the innumerable things we cannot envision, He does, with great ease.

There are some theological and doctrinal issues that qualify this. Where knowledge is based on faith, and increased faith is based on the acquisition of that faith-based knowledge, “foreknowledge” can be considered to be a form of advanced faith. LDS doctrine allows that God operates with faith as well as knowledge. For example, in sending His Son to earth, He knew / foreknew that all His children would be guaranteed physical and spiritual salvation.

CV thanks for the response,

Pretty deep post. It leaves me wondering what God has faith in. Us? Is the guaranty of salvation based on His faith in us? I dunno if I am reading your right here.

Another principle is agency, which God exercises in perfection, which contributes to His management of perfect faith and perfect knowledge and their interplay (giving Him foreknowledge). He has given us our agency, which we do not exercise in perfection.

It is my belief that while He envisions our exaltation, and knows we will be exalted through the Atonement of His Son, and does all He can for us to achieve exaltation, He does not know our actual realization of this blessing until the moment we choose to—He reserved that one unforeseeable outcome for us by giving us our agency, and when we return that agency to Him in a fullness, then we are one with Him, and the realization of our exaltation is accomplished, and He knows it, and we know it.

You seem to have spent some time on the subject, this statement is more "compressed" than the previous. I want to make sure I am understanding you clearly. To state my interpretation of what you have said... In order for man to have free agency all facts.. past, present and future can be fully known save one. That moment being the point in which one becomes an exalted Son or Daughter to stand aside their Honored Father as peer. God doesn't take the last step for you, to that end, and doesn't know if you will take it yourself. Am I close?

[Mudcat]

Some people think that because he has foreknowledge, it means that he has taken away agency. I don't think it is true. Just because you can predict what someone does, doesn't mean you cause it. In other words, the persons agency has created the future that you seen, not the other way around.

Hope I make some sense.

A great deal of sense as I see it in a similar fashion.

[Mudcat]

2 The same which knoweth all things, for all things are present before mine eyes;

(D&C 38:2)

The great Jehovah contemplated the whole of the events connected with the earth, pertaining to the plan of salvation, before it rolled into existence, or ever "the morning stars sang together" for joy; the past, the present, and the future were and are, with Him, one eternal "now;" he knew of the fall of Adam, the iniquities of the antediluvians, of the depth of iniquity that would be connected with the human family, their weakness and strength, their power and glory, apostasies, their crimes, their righteousness and iniquity; He comprehended the fall of man, and his redemption; He knew the plan of salvation and pointed it out; He was acquainted with the situation of all nations and with their destiny; He ordered all things according to the council of His own will; He knows the situation of both the living and the dead, and has made ample provision for their redemption, according to their several circumstances, and the laws of the kingdom of God, whether in this world, or in the world to come.

(Joseph Smith, History of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 4: 597)

Thanks for the solid references M.

[canard78]

I've not a lot of references on this as I've spent lots of time studying it. But I do believe that we can still "surprise" God. I don't think he knows every single last detail (what I will choose for breakfast, what colour car I will choose) that will happen in 2014. I know I've no concept of his omniscience. But I don't think he has a 'DVD' of all eternity. My life story simply hasn't been written yet. So I'm not sure how he could know it.

It was probably my first ever "faith crisis" at about 16-17. It bothered me for months, and came up in seminary. In the end I simply had to put it on the mental shelf and accept that every act I take is mine to take. There is no pre-destination.

Whether God knows every detailed act or not, I'm not sure. But I don't think so. Even though we talk of "from the beginning to the end" I don't think it means what we sometimes presume it means.

[Bikeemikey]

God has no limits on what he knowledge...he who created all things, or show his Son how too.

I personally think god knows all things that can be know, and has power to do all things that can be done. (Though he is only willing to act morally and mercifully).

This does not mean he can do all things or that he knows all things.

[Stone holm]

Have taught a few classes on this subject, probably why they limit the classes I teach. To me absolute foreknowledge would deny humankind free agency which would be about as non-Mormon as you can get. But my Covenanter (Reformed Presbyterian) forebears were Calvinists and went down on the otherside of the fence which is why they went with Predestination. If God knows the future, that means the future is unchangeable which means you are just a puppet on a stage in a play with a predetermined end. Kind of makes life out as a farce doesn't it. So you can have a God who doesn't know the future with absolute certainty, or you can have free agency, but you can't have both.

The moral awkwardness you place God in with absolute foreknowledge is pretty hideous as well. You would have to assume that He knew for an absolute certainty that specific Spirits would come down here and become Sons of Perdition whose fate supposedly is worse than if they had never been born. That doesn't paint a very nice picture of Heavenly Father -- I prefer a Heavenly Father who at least thought each of us had a fighting chance at Exaltation.

[ERayR]

Hi all,

Been a while since I started a thread, so for those that may not know me. I am an EV Christian, my wife and her side of the family is LDS.

Got in an interesting discussion with my FIL a couple days ago. My own view is that God's knowledge of all future events is just as certain as his knowledge of all present and past events. My FIL, expressed that he did not think God had a complete foreknowledge, in the sense that God didn't know exactly what everyone was going to do. He did suggest that God fully knew what He himself would do in any possible situation.

What started the conversation, was actually a discussion on Calvinism and Arminianism.. as he was reading a reply I was putting together in response to Calvinist.

The conversation got a bit fragmented because, I was more or less on the fence trying to field questions about my own particular beliefs. Some of the Scriptures that shape my view on the topic, present some challenges to his position, in that they seem to point to God's awareness of specific future events... but it wasn't an argumentative type conversation. Regardless we didn't get a chance to discuss why he believed as he did on the matter. IIRC, I have heard some form of his view expressed on this forum in the past and thought I would inquire.

I do not know if there is a lot of variance on the view of God and foreknowledge or if this is one of those gray areas that there is congecture on.

If you hold to a limited view of foreknowledge, why is it that you do? Are there Scriptures or logical deductive reasoning or something like that to support your view? If so what is it?

Regards,

Mudcat

God has perfect foreknowledge. However, he lets us find our own way too it,

[Mudcat]

I hold that God's foreknowledge is limited because I believe that unlimited foreknowledge entails determinism and negates agency (free will). And, yes, there are scriptures that support the view that God's foreknowledge is limited. Terence Fretheim discusses several of them at length in his classic work, The Suffering of God: An Old Testament Perspective (see pp. 45-59).

The late Clark Pinnock, the well-known Evangelical open theist, outlined what is at stake: "If the future is not open, then neither God nor humanity can contribute anything to it. If it is open, however, our decisions are possibilities until we actualize them. Therefore, we are motivated to make the best choices and not fall back into resignation. Knowing that what will transpire in the future is still being decided inclines us to assume responsibility for the future" (Pinnock, The Most Moved Mover, 137).

Thanks for your thoughts Nevo.

Bold mine. From my own standpoint I disagree with your conclusion. Certianly perfect foreknowledge entails determinism. However I don't feel that such determinism by God mitigates our own self determinations.

How does God knowing what you will freely determine stop you from freely determining anything?

[ERayR]

Have taught a few classes on this subject, probably why they limit the classes I teach. To me absolute foreknowledge would deny humankind free agency which would be about as non-Mormon as you can get. But my Covenanter (Reformed Presbyterian) forebears were Calvinists and went down on the otherside of the fence which is why they went with Predestination. If God knows the future, that means the future is unchangeable which means you are just a puppet on a stage in a play with a predetermined end. Kind of makes life out as a farce doesn't it. So you can have a God who doesn't know the future with absolute certainty, or you can have free agency, but you can't have both.

The moral awkwardness you place God in with absolute foreknowledge is pretty hideous as well. You would have to assume that He knew for an absolute certainty that specific Spirits would come down here and become Sons of Perdition whose fate supposedly is worse than if they had never been born. That doesn't paint a very nice picture of Heavenly Father -- I prefer a Heavenly Father who at least thought each of us had a fighting chance at Exaltation.

See my post# 16.

[Stone holm]

See my post# 16.

Agreed, had not read it.

[Questing Beast]

...

If you hold to a limited view of foreknowledge, why is it that you do? Are there Scriptures or logical deductive reasoning or something like that to support your view? If so what is it?

Regards,

Mudcat

If anyone holds a concept of God not knowing something that concept is in error. Take that to the bank.

When I tried to believe in and comprehend "God the Father" as a glorified (once mortal) man, I got nowhere. Such a being could not possibly know the future of every particle of the world/universe. But if GtF is a manifestation as human for our benefit, then everything starts to make logical sense. God, being the Creator is also the Creator of spacetime. We as humans live in the world of humans and locked inside of spacetime. God sees all as NOW, "outside" of spacetime where infinity expands forever, yet is all present to God; down to the minutest particle and encompassing the entire "multiverse". There is nothing "his eye does not pierce", i.e. nothing about Creation that God does not know. Anything imagined less than this is moving in the wrong direction, because "God" must be apprehended by me resorting to the biggest concepts for "God" that my imagination can possibly conceive of....

[Questing Beast]

true but if you see your child going to commit say suicide or kill someone wouldn't you try to stop it? It seems that God honoring agency means that he is a passive person and just allows us to do whatever we want and he doesn't step in at all

That's because God sees "the end from the beginning", we don't. I try and be a "passive parent" too, mimicking God the best I know how. Letting children crash and burn is hard, but I think it can be done in love and faith. "Crash and burn" is temporary and teaches much....

[Nevo]

How does God knowing what you will freely determine stop you from freely determining anything?

If God infallibly knew yesterday that I will rob a bank tomorrow at 10 am, I cannot change God's past knowledge that I will rob a bank tomorrow at 10 am. I cannot do other than rob a bank tomorrow at 10 am because, in effect, the act has already occurred. There is no other possibility open to me. And if I cannot do otherwise than rob a bank tomorrow at 10 am, then I do not act freely. Whatever agency I may think I have is illusory.

For a more detailed discussion of the argument and the premises, see http://plato.stanfor...-foreknowledge/.

[blackstrap]

Did God give us agency? Satan tries to take it away. God tries to preserve it. I think agency is an eternal part of each intelligence/spirit ,but it can be lost/given up . As to the OP . I KNOW that if a cat comes onto my property while my dog is there to see it, my dog will run towards the cat. Does my knowledge affect the action of my dog?

[Questing Beast]

I've not a lot of references on this as I've spent lots of time studying it. But I do believe that we can still "surprise" God. I don't think he knows every single last detail (what I will choose for breakfast, what colour car I will choose) that will happen in 2014. I know I've no concept of his omniscience. But I don't think he has a 'DVD' of all eternity. My life story simply hasn't been written yet. So I'm not sure how he could know it.

It was probably my first ever "faith crisis" at about 16-17. It bothered me for months, and came up in seminary. In the end I simply had to put it on the mental shelf and accept that every act I take is mine to take. There is no pre-destination.

Whether God knows every detailed act or not, I'm not sure. But I don't think so. Even though we talk of "from the beginning to the end" I don't think it means what we sometimes presume it means.

Predestination is abominable doctrine only if God created some to damnation and misery. If God instead made every human soul to achieve Joy then predestination becomes something else, something good. But the word "predestination" holds such negative connotations because it seems that we are nothing but programmed things and not really possessing free will. I do not believe this. I hold a concept of Existence where I was given life and "cut loose": God does not intrude and read my mind when relating to me, yet "God In Total" knows/sees all things, ergo knows all that Exists, infinitely and eternally. That Totality is not what relates to us in the world, God Manifesting is what relates to us, as one like unto us, yet possessing the whole Infinite Mind of God In Total. So the reality Is that God knows all, and that must include our continually evolving knowledge of Joy, of self discovery, which is the discovery forever of God. We are sovereign minds, willfully separated from God Manifesting As Human, who chooses to enjoy spacetime as we see it. God knows that each one of us is by nature a joyful person, yet we have no knowledge when we first come into Existence and enter spacetime; we must learn what Joy Is.

Perfect beings cannot be hurt by the world of humans, only learn from it. That is why we do mortality, so that we can encounter imperfection, opposition, and learn to choose rightly, Joyfully. "Perfect" is our natural state, but ignorance is always with us, so our knowledge is incomplete and always will be, since we are finite and God Is Infinite: there is always more to know about God and it is our business to learn forever, and the more we learn the more Joy we have. There is nothing "predestined" about it from our perspective, or even God's perspective as one of us.

God In Total Is Incomprehensible to humans, and must be in order to be Infinite. Yet while Infinite and Incomprehensible, God Is also "into creation". It would appear that God Is a Joy "addict" and cannot get enough of it, so Creation expands infinitely to provide more souls (us) who are finding Joy by seeking it through the process of selection. We possess free will and perversely we often come to Joy through falsification. But get to Joy we all do eventually....

Edited June 26, 2013 by Questing Beast

[Duncan]

Did God give us agency? Satan tries to take it away. God tries to preserve it. I think agency is an eternal part of each intelligence/spirit ,but it can be lost/given up . As to the OP . I KNOW that if a cat comes onto my property while my dog is there to see it, my dog will run towards the cat. Does my knowledge affect the action of my dog?

true, but if you have a pitbull or one of the banned dogs variety and they attack and kill something then you are responsible for that death-is why I ask if I know my child would do harm to themselves or someone else then why shouldn't I be held responsible?