Calm Posted June 30, 2013 Posted June 30, 2013 (edited) My view on God's foreknowledge is that he sees the end from the beginning perfectly and knows, for example, what will happen to me. I won't be able to surprise Him. I am convinced of this because of two talks on the subject of the Book of Revelation in which Richard D. Draper lays this out.I find this simultaneously comforting and perplexing.I have no problem with this as I do not believe it is his foreknowledge that limits me into one option thus allowing him to know in perfection what will happen to me, but my own self-determinism that is rooted in my eternal nature. His knowledge is based on my predetermined (by personality, what I allow myself to be influenced by, my desires and needs, etc.) choices, not my choices based on his knowledge.However, I can also imagine a scenario where God knows all that is possible to be known at the time, but that there are somethings that are unknowable--that my choices are not solely rooted in the preself-determined aspect of myself that would otherwise guide all my actions, that perhaps the Atonement or something else even in the First Estate has allowed us to move past our programming and to 'reset' ourselves into something much more profound...but none of those potential changes would be able to prevent God's plan from being carried out because he is aware of all potentials and thus can plan in advance what is needed to end up where we must end up.Based on what I know now, I tend to lean to the first; based on what I am learning about the Atonement and how God interacts with Man, I am growing more fond of the second. Edited June 30, 2013 by calmoriah
Stone holm Posted June 30, 2013 Posted June 30, 2013 Here's a question:If earthy bodies procreate earthly bodies why do perfected celestial bodies procreate imperfect spiritual bodies of a presumably totally different type of element-matter?Why do beautiful butterflies lay eggs which hatch into caterpillars instead of butterflies? Why would you consider spirit bodies to be imperfect for what they are? Better question is why do they sometimes create unmortal bodies such as Adam and Eve had? 1
Bikeemikey Posted June 30, 2013 Posted June 30, 2013 Why do beautiful butterflies lay eggs which hatch into caterpillars instead of butterflies? Why would you consider spirit bodies to be imperfect for what they are? Better question is why do they sometimes create unmortal bodies such as Adam and Eve had?The butterfly analogy is an interesting one.I think that they produced an immortal Adam and Eve, though Adam and Eve were able to make decisions that changed that.
Stone holm Posted June 30, 2013 Posted June 30, 2013 The butterfly analogy is an interesting one.I think that they produced an immortal Adam and Eve, though Adam and Eve were able to make decisions that changed that.I prefer the term un-mortal. But you may be right. Queen bees are made by being fed a special diet, but we steer dangerously close to certain elements of the Adam-God theory in going down that road. The key, I suspect, lies in something we do not understand about Eve. We know much more about Adam than we do Eve, yet she, not Adam, is the first to perceive and understand their predicament.
Lightbearer Posted June 30, 2013 Posted June 30, 2013 Depends on your definition of all knowledge. Do I believe that God can predict the course of events in a macro sense? Yes. Does God have absolute knowledge that we will do such and such? No. As I have said before the agency of mankind is a key doctrine. You cannot have free agency if the outcome is known for a certainty, and I refuse to believe that a just and merciful God would send a specific individual into mortality knowing there was no hope but what that specific individual would commit acts that would condemn him to a fate wherein it would have been better that he was never born. I do not believe in predestination, I do not believe that anyone was sent here without any real hope of succeeding. I do believe that God knew that a certain percentage would fail, and that He knew certain individuals would probably fail.So did God have absolute knowledge that His beloved Son would not let the cup pass from HIm? Did He know that Judas would fall? Did He know Joseph would go into the grove to pray? Did He know that if Joseph and Hyrum went back to Carthage they would be butchered? The fact that some would choose to be damned rather than return to His presence was the reason for the war in heaven. The Prophet Joseph made this plain:(Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, Section Six 1843-44, p.357)"The contention in heaven was--Jesus said there would be certain souls that would not be saved; and the devil said he could save them all, and laid his plans before the grand council, who gave their vote in favor of Jesus Christ. So the devil rose up in rebellion against God, and was cast down, with all who put up their heads for him. (Book of Moses--Pearl of Great Price, Chap. 4:1-4; Book of Abraham, Chap. 3:23-28.) Just because God knows a thing does not mean He wills it or orders it. That is the difference between predestination and foreordination. In one God wills it and it is so, in the other God knows it but it is our choice that we have made. The fact that He does not reveal it to us directly our individual fate (or I would rather say the consequences to the choice of our actions) is the difference between agency and being forced. God will not force us to be saved and He works within our agency to help us make the right choices. Think of this, the dream of Lehi, it foretold the destruction of the Lamanites and the fate of Laman and Lemuel! Did father Lehi give up on them? No. But it was to no effect for them. At that point I suppose they were "past feeling" and later it was revealed to Nephi the destruction of His people over 1000 years before it happened. Did he give up? No he tried to help those who would listen and those who would not he left without excuse. I have a speculation (mind you it is not doctrine and I have never read it anywhere) but I believe before we came to this earth that God gave us a Patriarcal Blessing and we saw a vision of our mortal probation. I am not sure if He used the phrase "if you are faithful" or not. I do think that there is a vital reason why the veil is placed over our minds and I think it all has to do with agency. There is no greater supporter in the concept of agency then I, that is why for many years I had a problem with the doctrine of foreordination. Yet when it finally occurred to me that God's knowledge and power is unlimited and that our knowledge is limited and based on faith, then the idea was not so distressing. Why think negatively (I'm damned already) rather have faith and think, my exaltation is assured? In the mean time we have to all work out our salvation with fear and trembling. Knowing that God is both just and merciful and that the victory of good over evil is already achieved. Because the Lord knows the end from the beginning.
Flyonthewall Posted June 30, 2013 Posted June 30, 2013 It just seems to me, that if God knew perfectly the outcome of everybody's life, there would be no need for this mortal life.If the person we are is already known, there is no need to test or try us to see if we will obey, as it is already known.As I see it, the only reason for this mortal life as a testing ground would be that there is indeed an element of uncertainty, something that isn't set in stone yet.If God already knew Abraham would obey and sacrifice Isaac, there would be no need for the comment:12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.
Calm Posted June 30, 2013 Posted June 30, 2013 (edited) It just seems to me, that if God knew perfectly the outcome of everybody's life, there would be no need for this mortal life.Unless it was part of the creation process. Everyone (LDS at least) thinks of this life as a test, but why not instead the creation of the eternal being? Just as a sword is tested through its refinement process, the test itself alters and strengthens the sword.The analogy of God being a potter, the pot isn't finished until it is glazed and fired (which also tests its stability) , it isn't a complete pot simply because it has been formed on the wheel. Edited June 30, 2013 by calmoriah
Bikeemikey Posted June 30, 2013 Posted June 30, 2013 (edited) It just seems to me, that if God knew perfectly the outcome of everybody's life, there would be no need for this mortal life.If the person we are is already known, there is no need to test or try us to see if we will obey, as it is already known.As I see it, the only reason for this mortal life as a testing ground would be that there is indeed an element of uncertainty, something that isn't set in stone yet. If God already knew Abraham would obey and sacrifice Isaac, there would be no need for the comment:If the point of this life is for us to learn, and not god to learn, then gods knowledge of future events provides us zero benefit as we still don't know what we will do in the future, even if god does.Our learning comes from passing through experience. Edited June 30, 2013 by Bikeemikey 1
Flyonthewall Posted June 30, 2013 Posted June 30, 2013 what we learn here shapes who we are. God already knows who we are. He knew in our pre-mortal life. We learned then, and it shaped us into who we were at that time. God fore-ordained some to be leaders here on earth, however, does that mean all who were fore-ordained became what they were fore-ordained to be?Even if this life is part of our creation, there is still a chance we can fail the test.What I think is, this mortal life was an unknown to us...how would we re-act to physical stimulus, and even to God there is an element of uncertainty. He did not know if Abraham would sacrifice Isaac until he raised the knife...it was only at that time that He stated: "NOW I know".He may know all possibilities, but which one we will choose is not set in stone, even for Him. Oh yes, He knows what we are most likely to do based on his familiarity of us, and with a high degree of certainty, which to us may seem like absolute knowledge, but there is still some element of uncertainty. This uncertainty is indiscernible to us, but is still there. 1
Bikeemikey Posted June 30, 2013 Posted June 30, 2013 what we learn here shapes who we are. God already knows who we are. He knew in our pre-mortal life. We learned then, and it shaped us into who we were at that time. God fore-ordained some to be leaders here on earth, however, does that mean all who were fore-ordained became what they were fore-ordained to be?Even if this life is part of our creation, there is still a chance we can fail the test.What I think is, this mortal life was an unknown to us...how would we re-act to physical stimulus, and even to God there is an element of uncertainty. He did not know if Abraham would sacrifice Isaac until he raised the knife...it was only at that time that He stated: "NOW I know".He may know all possibilities, but which one we will choose is not set in stone, even for Him. Oh yes, He knows what we are most likely to do based on his familiarity of us, and with a high degree of certainty, which to us may seem like absolute knowledge, but there is still some element of uncertainty. This uncertainty is indiscernible to us, but is still there. I don't have any problems with this perspective.
Questing Beast Posted June 30, 2013 Posted June 30, 2013 (edited) I do: it makes "God" less than all knowing, which is not possible. Just because "God" knows a thing does not mean that "God" bothers to do anything with perfect omniscience. I imagine that the great bulk of stuff goes right by "God" as insignificant or redundant. So when I imagine that "God" knows every particle of creation down to the subatomic and outward through the macrocosmic of the multiverse, and that all of this knowledge is NOW to "God" (i.e. viewed by "God In Total" outside of spacetime as it were, since spacetime is caused by "God" as part of Creation), my imagination also takes into account what "God" relating to Creation would bother to be bothered with. If "God" enjoys relating to us as human, why would "God" spoil the effect of engaging with us by consciously keeping in mind all the minutia of Existence? Every scrap of knowledge or factoid is available to "God" if required, but I imagine that very little of it is pertinent to anything, its just part of the "machine", the "contraption" that Is Infinite Creation.... Edited June 30, 2013 by Questing Beast
Stone holm Posted June 30, 2013 Posted June 30, 2013 Unless it was part of the creation process. Everyone (LDS at least) thinks of this life as a test, but why not instead the creation of the eternal being? Just as a sword is tested through its refinement process, the test itself alters and strengthens the sword.The analogy of God being a potter, the pot isn't finished until it is glazed and fired (which also tests its stability) , it isn't a complete pot simply because it has been formed on the wheel.The problem with the purpose of life being solely a conditioning process are the sons of perdition. While the concept of life being a play where we all play out our assigned roles may be of a Shakespearean quality, it doesn't really fit well with the notion of working out ones salvation with fear and trembling. It also eventually plays to the arrogance of Calvinism where you evidence your being amongst the elect by your outward behaviour and prosperity.
Calm Posted June 30, 2013 Posted June 30, 2013 The problem with the purpose of life being solely a conditioning process are the sons of perdition. While the concept of life being a play where we all play out our assigned roles may be of a Shakespearean quality, it doesn't really fit well with the notion of working out ones salvation with fear and trembling. It also eventually plays to the arrogance of Calvinism where you evidence your being amongst the elect by your outward behaviour and prosperity.You are thinking it must be either or...if I understand your point. It doesn't have to be, God can use the process for more than one goal.
Stone holm Posted July 1, 2013 Posted July 1, 2013 You are thinking it must be either or...if I understand your point. It doesn't have to be, God can use the process for more than one goal.Oh I agree, it's just that I don't think one can use the conditioning of us as putting meaning into something that becomes farcical under predestination. Nor do I by into Questing Beasts explanation that the details are too trivial for God's notice.
webbles Posted July 1, 2013 Posted July 1, 2013 It just seems to me, that if God knew perfectly the outcome of everybody's life, there would be no need for this mortal life.If the person we are is already known, there is no need to test or try us to see if we will obey, as it is already known.As I see it, the only reason for this mortal life as a testing ground would be that there is indeed an element of uncertainty, something that isn't set in stone yet.If God already knew Abraham would obey and sacrifice Isaac, there would be no need for the comment:I've kind of thought that the purpose isn't for God to determine where we are going but for us to determine where we are going. He already knew the final outcome but if He had assigned us to our final locations, many would have rebelled because they wouldn't accept His judgement. So we go through this mortal life so that when we reach the final judgement, we will accept the judgement because we have judged ourselves. 2
Stone holm Posted July 1, 2013 Posted July 1, 2013 I've kind of thought that the purpose isn't for God to determine where we are going but for us to determine where we are going. He already knew the final outcome but if He had assigned us to our final locations, many would have rebelled because they wouldn't accept His judgement. So we go through this mortal life so that when we reach the final judgement, we will accept the judgement because we have judged ourselves.Interesting one of the best justifications for the farce view that I have ever heard, will give you a bump for that.
Questing Beast Posted July 1, 2013 Posted July 1, 2013 I've kind of thought that the purpose isn't for God to determine where we are going but for us to determine where we are going. He already knew the final outcome but if He had assigned us to our final locations, many would have rebelled because they wouldn't accept His judgement. So we go through this mortal life so that when we reach the final judgement, we will accept the judgement because we have judged ourselves.So those of us who are to "be miserable/filthy still" will be okay with that? God creates those to be miserable and they learn to accept that? Disgusting notion. Who/what is to blame for this misery, this cosmic, never-ending hell? Not the Mormon GtF, that's for sure: he's just one of "usen", only more smart than all of us put together. So if you take the Mormon cosmology, GtF is only holding out the rescue by institution the "plan of salvation", or more correctly OUR GtF is just doing "what has always been done", and nobody knows who/what started existence in the first place. There really are souls too depraved to "make it", who will be evil and miserable forever. Nobody is to blame, it just is what it is, so we all better just accept it and forget about it: some of our children and friends are going to hell or worse outer darkness, and that is all there is to it.... (done playing devils advocate now)
Stone holm Posted July 1, 2013 Posted July 1, 2013 So those of us who are to "be miserable/filthy still" will be okay with that? God creates those to be miserable and they learn to accept that? Disgusting notion. Who/what is to blame for this misery, this cosmic, never-ending hell? Not the Mormon GtF, that's for sure: he's just one of "usen", only more smart than all of us put together. So if you take the Mormon cosmology, GtF is only holding out the rescue by institution the "plan of salvation", or more correctly OUR GtF is just doing "what has always been done", and nobody knows who/what started existence in the first place. There really are souls too depraved to "make it", who will be evil and miserable forever. Nobody is to blame, it just is what it is, so we all better just accept it and forget about it: some of our children and friends are going to hell or worse outer darkness, and that is all there is to it.... (done playing devils advocate now)No. I certainly still have a problem with the farce view because of the awkward ethical problem it places God in. I don't think He sent any specific person down here knowing for certain that that specific individual would wind up being worse off than before he/she came down here. He maybe considered it probable, but would still have allowed them the chance that they would beat the odds, but if He knew for 100% don't see that happening.
Duncan Posted July 1, 2013 Posted July 1, 2013 as I say I am totally in the dark about this, especially with patriarchal blessings in our Church as well. I don't know why you would want to trust someone who told you to do something, knowing you or it would fail
Questing Beast Posted July 1, 2013 Posted July 1, 2013 "God" has to know 100% of everything existing, or else "God" is not omniscient. That is accepting a lesser God, or even god, than can possibly be imagined or conceived of by a finite mind. Therefore it is a false concept.The saving grace of my growing cosmology is that it is founded upon the faith I have in the belief that "God" does not create anyone to ultimately fail to "get it", and learn and accept what Joy Is....
Duncan Posted July 1, 2013 Posted July 1, 2013 "God" has to know 100% of everything existing, or else "God" is not omniscient. That is accepting a lesser God, or even god, than can possibly be imagined or conceived of by a finite mind. Therefore it is a false concept.The saving grace of my growing cosmology is that it is founded upon the faith I have in the belief that "God" does not create anyone to ultimately fail to "get it", and learn and accept what Joy Is....I am divorced, why would God have me go through just to start over when he could have said don't get married in the first place to this person instead there is someone else for you? How do I know the lessons I learned from it are the right lessons? I don't trust Church leaders as far as I can throw them (they didn't call themselves to the calling I know but I am not doing something just because a Bishop or whoever told me and what they told is what God is supposedly telling me)
Questing Beast Posted July 1, 2013 Posted July 1, 2013 Your perspective is completely understandable. Nobody wants to go through hell. But this mortal world is hell, even when "it is as good as it gets". Nothing turns out the way we want it, because even when it does, it doesn't last. Divorce is like a death in the family. We all hate death that takes what we love away from us here. Our looks, our health, our libido, our interests, our beauty, it all dies, usually by agonizingly slow, inevitable processes. Hell. And what do we take from it all? Hopefully clear object lessons about what Joy is not. I believe that as immortals we already came into existence, and that our Joy is already perfect, we just don't know it until we experience its opposite, in all the myriad facets of opposition. That makes sense out of this world and renders "evil" more of a simulation than an eternal bogey man at war with "God".... 1
Bikeemikey Posted July 2, 2013 Posted July 2, 2013 "God" has to know 100% of everything existing, or else "God" is not omniscient. That is accepting a lesser God, or even god, than can possibly be imagined or conceived of by a finite mind. Therefore it is a false concept.The saving grace of my growing cosmology is that it is founded upon the faith I have in the belief that "God" does not create anyone to ultimately fail to "get it", and learn and accept what Joy Is....I disagree - he only has to know all that can be known... Which may not be everything. 1
Stone holm Posted July 2, 2013 Posted July 2, 2013 I disagree - he only has to know all that can be known... Which may not be everything.Well now there is a definition of omniscience that I could live with.
Questing Beast Posted July 2, 2013 Posted July 2, 2013 Won't fly. "God" originates everything because "God Is Existence". There cannot be a thing not caused by "God". If there is anything not caused by "God", that would infer less than total control and knowledge. The power and knowledge must be resident with "God" or else some doubt about his complete, perfect power and knowledge will enter into faith. Without complete power and knowledge, "God" does not deserve our complete faith....
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