How Complete Is God'S Foreknowledge?

[Ahab]

... if he is omniscient to the point of knowing exactly what we will do, we are so self-determined as to have no choice to change our path.

We are the ones who determine our own path, it's just that he knows what path we will choose.

[thesometimesaint]

The reason of the knowledge is what 'forced' them though, their own internal self, not him knowing it.

The knowledge of God does not in itself force someone to act, it is the fact that he knows what will happen that is the key and what that means. How does he know it? It is because he knows each of us so well he knows what choices we make. We may be self-determined therefore, but if he is omniscient to the point of knowing exactly what we will do, we are so self-determined as to have no choice to change our path. Whether or not God is the programmer, if men are programmed to behave a certain way (externally by environment or God or something else or internally by our eternal nature), then our behaviour is determined though in the latter case one could say self-determined at least.

God can't interfere with our Agency. Even Alma the younger had a choice.

God gives us the opportunity to act as we please. We choose the consequences of those actions, only to the extent of choosing the actions. IE; I can choose to jump off of a high cliff without a parachute. Once I do so I don't have a choose in hitting the ground hard.

[Calm]

We are the ones who determine our own path, it's just that he knows what path we will choose.

That is why I used the term "self-determined".

[Calm]

God can't interfere with our Agency. Even Alma the younger had a choice.

God gives us the opportunity to act as we please.

I am not disagreeing. Simply because we can act as we please does not mean our behaviour is not determined, it is simply self-determined by whatever eternal qualities we possess. Edited June 28, 2013 by calmoriah

[Ahab]

That is why I used the term "self-determined".

It sounded weird though because you said we have no choice to change our path. Maybe that was only because of how I chose to interpret your words, though.

I would prefer to say that we do have the choice to change our path, but regardless of whatever path we choose it will be our path because of the choice we have made.

[Duncan]

I absolutely knew that at some time in their early childhood my children would touch the stove when it was hot. That knowledge did not force them to do it. I just made sure I had the burn ointment handy.

oh man, my son didn't do that. His thing is talking loudly in Church and other places, when told to be quiet and whisper he'll say even louder, "I don't want to be quiet" or something equally embarrasing!

Edited June 28, 2013 by Duncan

[Ahab]

oh man, my son didn't do that. His thing is talking loudly in Church and other places, when told to be quiet and whisper he'll say even louder, "I don't want to be quiet" or something equally embarrasing!

Good for him for being strong willed. Now he just needs to learn there can be undesirable consequences to his actions.

[Lightbearer]

Hi Mudcat good to hear from you again!

This subject has always been problematic, although I believe there is a fixed doctrine in LDS theology I also think it is hard for most people to wrap their minds around it and make sense of it in a meaningful way. We are taught that God knows all things, it is taught repeatedly in the scriptures both in the Bible and in modern revelation. Yet we also are taught that pre-destination is a false doctrine. Fordinantion is the correct teaching yet it is a hard concept to understand and so with our finite minds we make false conclusions. First God knows all:

"O how great the holiness of our God! For he knoweth all things, and there is not anything save he knows it" (Book of Mormon | 2 Nephi 9:20)

Now this is rather plain, however the stark implications of such a statement is that...God knows if I will be exalted in the Celestial Kingdom. We have a mortal way of thinking that's it game over, it is already decided. However I do not believe it works that way. God is not a mortal man, His mind is not finite and not limited to the hear and now. So such a statement is beyond our ability to comprehend. It seems unfair that God knows the end from the beginning. However it should give one peace and hope that God is not going to be surprised by the devil or anyone else. The fall of Adam was know before the world was, did that mean the agency or choice was made for him? No not at all, it just means that God could see it! This is the very definition of prophecy, it is like viewing history in reverse! The only way this would "set out fate" is it God were to tell us the outcome. That is why in most revelations there is always an "if" placed there... the if gives us agency. Another point is this how could God predict the future if He did not have this knowledge? Would the prophecy be sure? Or would it be an "educated guess" such an idea to me is appauling! A God who "makes it up as He goes along!" I think not, God is not a student, He does not need to learn anything. Now we may well ask how God knows these things, the following to me is a hint:

"And I have a work for thee, Moses, my son; and thou art in the similitude of mine Only Begotten; and mine Only Begotten is and shall be the Savior, for he is full of grace and truth; but there is no God beside me, and all things are present with me, for I know them all."

(Pearl of Great Price | Moses 1:6)

To God time does not exist, all things are NOW for Him. It is mind blowing I admit, yet to believe anything less would be putting God in a position of ignorance which cannot be. When describing the work of a seer using the interpreters or seer stones in the Book of Mormon the following was stated:

"Now Ammon said unto him: I can assuredly tell thee, O king, of a man that can translate the records; for he has wherewith that he can look, and translate all records that are of ancient date; and it is a gift from God. And the things are called interpreters, and no man can look in them except he be commanded, lest he should look for that he ought not and he should perish. And whosoever is commanded to look in them, the same is called seer."(Book of Mormon | Mosiah 8:13)

Why do you suppose one would perish? I think if one were to look to their future and see it, then that would cause the problem with agency that so many here site as the reason why God cannot have such a power. That same passage goes on to explain the gift of a seer:

"And the king said that a seer is greater than a prophet. And Ammon said that a seer is a revelator and a prophet also; and a gift which is greater can no man have, except he should possess the power of God, which no man can; yet a man may have great power given him from God. But a seer can know of things which are past, and also of things which are to come, and by them shall all things be revealed, or, rather, shall secret things be made manifest, and hidden things shall come to light, and things which are not known shall be made known by them, and also things shall be made known by them which otherwise could not be known." (Book of Mormon | Mosiah 8:15-17)

This being true and I do believe it is, then how could a seer have such power and God HImself not posses it? Another example is found here:

"My name is Jehovah, and I know the end from the beginning; therefore my hand shall be over thee." (Pearl of Great Price | Abraham 2:8)

Again the idea "game over" comes to mind, and yet for us in our prespective it is not over and the choices we make are for us to "prove ourselves" not to God but to ourselves and to all others:

"Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones; And God saw these souls that they were good, and he stood in the midst of them, and he said: These I will make my rulers; for he stood among those that were spirits, and he saw that they were good; and he said unto me: Abraham, thou art one of them; thou wast chosen before thou wast born. And there stood one among them that was like unto God, and he said unto those who were with him: We will go down, for there is space there, and we will take of these materials, and we will make an earth whereon these may dwell; And we will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them; And they who keep their first estate shall be added upon; and they who keep not their first estate shall not have glory in the same kingdom with those who keep their first estate; and they who keep their second estate shall have glory added upon their heads for ever and ever." (Pearl of Great Price | Abraham 3:22-26)

Chosen before they were born? How? If not from the foreknowledge of God then how? Do we think God goes through eternity with blinders on like us? That He has a veil covering or limiting His knowledge of the future? If so then all prophecy of the future is a sham! No God forbid, I think He has a means which is not logical or imaginable to us in our present state to understand. God is not searching for the truth, He is TRUTH, and He wants us to be as He is. Yet He does not force us, does not program us like robots or puppets, we have agency. Now a glimpse into our own future if we become as He is:

"The angels do not reside on a planet like this earth; But they reside in the presence of God, on a globe like a sea of glass and fire, where all things for their glory are manifest, past, present, and future, and are continually before the Lord. The place where God resides is a great Urim and Thummim. This earth, in its sanctified and immortal state, will be made like unto crystal and will be a Urim and Thummim to the inhabitants who dwell thereon, whereby all things pertaining to an inferior kingdom, or all kingdoms of a lower order, will be manifest to those who dwell on it; and this earth will be Christ's. Then the white stone mentioned in Revelation 2:17, will become a Urim and Thummim to each individual who receives one, whereby things pertaining to a higher order of kingdoms will be made known;" (Doctrine and Covenants | Section 130:6-10)

This knowledge and power is beyond this mortal sphere to comprehend. We get brief views "seen through a glass darkly" but when we are prefected it will be our gift to have.

In short God is omniscient! He knows all things and can predict to us those things that are needful for us to gain faith and to lay hold on eternal life.

[Stone holm]

Hi Mudcat good to hear from you again!

This subject has always been problematic, although I believe there is a fixed doctrine in LDS theology I also think it is hard for most people to wrap their minds around it and make sense of it in a meaningful way. We are taught that God knows all things, it is taught repeatedly in the scriptures both in the Bible and in modern revelation. Yet we also are taught that pre-destination is a false doctrine. Fordinantion is the correct teaching yet it is a hard concept to understand and so with our finite minds we make false conclusions. First God knows all:

Now this is rather plain, however the stark implications of such a statement is that...God knows if I will be exalted in the Celestial Kingdom. We have a mortal way of thinking that's it game over, it is already decided. However I do not believe it works that way. God is not a mortal man, His mind is not finite and not limited to the hear and now. So such a statement is beyond our ability to comprehend. It seems unfair that God knows the end from the beginning. However it should give one peace and hope that God is not going to be surprised by the devil or anyone else. The fall of Adam was know before the world was, did that mean the agency or choice was made for him? No not at all, it just means that God could see it! This is the very definition of prophecy, it is like viewing history in reverse! The only way this would "set out fate" is it God were to tell us the outcome. That is why in most revelations there is always an "if" placed there... the if gives us agency. Another point is this how could God predict the future if He did not have this knowledge? Would the prophecy be sure? Or would it be an "educated guess" such an idea to me is appauling! A God who "makes it up as He goes along!" I think not, God is not a student, He does not need to learn anything. Now we may well ask how God knows these things, the following to me is a hint:

To God time does not exist, all things are NOW for Him. It is mind blowing I admit, yet to believe anything less would be putting God in a position of ignorance which cannot be. When describing the work of a seer using the interpreters or seer stones in the Book of Mormon the following was stated:

Why do you suppose one would perish? I think if one were to look to their future and see it, then that would cause the problem with agency that so many here site as the reason why God cannot have such a power. That same passage goes on to explain the gift of a seer:

This being true and I do believe it is, then how could a seer have such power and God HImself not posses it? Another example is found here:

Again the idea "game over" comes to mind, and yet for us in our prespective it is not over and the choices we make are for us to "prove ourselves" not to God but to ourselves and to all others:

Chosen before they were born? How? If not from the foreknowledge of God then how? Do we think God goes through eternity with blinders on like us? That He has a veil covering or limiting His knowledge of the future? If so then all prophecy of the future is a sham! No God forbid, I think He has a means which is not logical or imaginable to us in our present state to understand. God is not searching for the truth, He is TRUTH, and He wants us to be as He is. Yet He does not force us, does not program us like robots or puppets, we have agency. Now a glimpse into our own future if we become as He is:

This knowledge and power is beyond this mortal sphere to comprehend. We get brief views "seen through a glass darkly" but when we are prefected it will be our gift to have.

In short God is omniscient! He knows all things and can predict to us those things that are needful for us to gain faith and to lay hold on eternal life.

Yeah, and we thought the standard Trinitarian concept of God sounded like gobbledygook .

[Duncan]

Good for him for being strong willed. Now he just needs to learn there can be undesirable consequences to his actions.

time will tell I suppose! he is getting better though as he is getting older, he's 10

[Stone holm]

I absolutely knew that at some time in their early childhood my children would touch the stove when it was hot. That knowledge did not force them to do it. I just made sure I had the burn ointment handy.

Gave you a bump on this, have thought about this comment for quite awhile and it is a succinct statement of my view of God's knowledge. He knew absolutely that we all would screw up to a certain extent (touch the stove) and provided a Savior (burn ointment), but that does not mean that He knew exactly which ones would screw up or the extent of their screw up. BTW -- raised 7 kids around multiple woodstove and none touched them. Then came the new soapstone pellet stoves which project heat in a different way and several grandchildren have managed to touch them. I guess the kids could sense the heat from a safe distance with the old stoves, but not with the new.

[Lightbearer]

Yeah, and we thought the standard Trinitarian concept of God sounded like gobbledygook .

So how is the scriptures I quoted gobbledygook?

I suppose opinion and speculation is more appropriate...

Edited June 29, 2013 by Lightbearer

[Stone holm]

So how is the scriptures I quoted gobbledygook?

I suppose opinion and speculation is more appropriate...

The Scriptures in the manner and way they were presented for the purpose presented leads to complicated confusion where none is called for, ever it is the way when we take general exclamations and words intended to convey an image of glory and deduce specific doctrine from such.

[Lightbearer]

The Scriptures in the manner and way they were presented for the purpose presented leads to complicated confusion where none is called for, ever it is the way when we take general exclamations and words intended to convey an image of glory and deduce specific doctrine from such.

so you are of the opinion that God does not have all knowledge? Where is you evidence except your word only?

[Stone holm]

so you are of the opinion that God does not have all knowledge? Where is you evidence except your word only?

Depends on your definition of all knowledge. Do I believe that God can predict the course of events in a macro sense? Yes. Does God have absolute knowledge that we will do such and such? No. As I have said before the agency of mankind is a key doctrine. You cannot have free agency if the outcome is known for a certainty, and I refuse to believe that a just and merciful God would send a specific individual into mortality knowing there was no hope but what that specific individual would commit acts that would condemn him to a fate wherein it would have been better that he was never born. I do not believe in predestination, I do not believe that anyone was sent here without any real hope of succeeding. I do believe that God knew that a certain percentage would fail, and that He knew certain individuals would probably fail.

[Questing Beast]

I don't think the multi-verse argument gets you out of the predestination. I, do not exist in more than one universe at a time, something akin to me may, but in the present I only exist in one universe. Hence if God knows what is going to happen to this particular me who is typing this on my keyboard then free agency does not exist. The fact that He knows what is happening to other me in a multitude of other future universes does not restore free agency since presumably he knows exactly how many universes get created with each decision. Sorry the logic doesn't flow, but its a very nice sophisticated try. Did somebody declare metaphysics dead?

Here's another question for you: Does God possess free will?

What I see is all of creation as "God" manifesting. It pleases "God" to give the same free will that "God" possesses to each sovereign soul, only we are finite in our knowledge and actions because we are "linear", in spacetime. So "God" places sovereign souls into spacetime where they cannot see beyond where they are, and only have the past to reference and make some consistent sense out of the present. Each denizen of spacetime possessing sapience is faced continually by a myriad of choices, most of them not even noticed even as they are made, even if the choice is to do nothing by default, that is a choice that alters the multiverse.

The reason why free will exists is to provide the contrast, through opposition, that points to the "right decision". If there is no right decision then there is no free will. But as Lehi says in the BoM, without opposition in all things everything created is for nothing, insensible and without purpose. He's actually talking about free will, exercised in the continuous atmosphere of opposition in all things. It is "God's" choice to create the opposition, so that finite minds deriving from his "Total Mind", can learn to enjoy existence by pursuing what rewards right decisions, and that reward is continually increasing Joy forever. All evidence shows this to be true. Without every sovereign soul finding Joy somehow "God" would be a monster. But no matter how many wrong decisions a soul can make there is always a way provided to turn it around and begin to discover Joy, and everyone does so....

[Stone holm]

Here's another question for you: Does God possess free will?

What I see is all of creation as "God" manifesting. It pleases "God" to give the same free will that "God" possesses to each sovereign soul, only we are finite in our knowledge and actions because we are "linear", in spacetime. So "God" places sovereign souls into spacetime where they cannot see beyond where they are, and only have the past to reference and make some consistent sense out of the present. Each denizen of spacetime possessing sapience is faced continually by a myriad of choices, most of them not even noticed even as they are made, even if the choice is to do nothing by default, that is a choice that alters the multiverse.

The reason why free will exists is to provide the contrast, through opposition, that points to the "right decision". If there is no right decision then there is no free will. But as Lehi says in the BoM, without opposition in all things everything created is for nothing, insensible and without purpose. He's actually talking about free will, exercised in the continuous atmosphere of opposition in all things. It is "God's" choice to create the opposition, so that finite minds deriving from his "Total Mind", can learn to enjoy existence by pursuing what rewards right decisions, and that reward is continually increasing Joy forever. All evidence shows this to be true. Without every sovereign soul finding Joy somehow "God" would be a monster. But no matter how many wrong decisions a soul can make there is always a way provided to turn it around and begin to discover Joy, and everyone does so....

Yes. But if He were to exercise it improperly, then the intelligences of the universe would cease to recognise His authority and He would cease to be God. Next question?

[Questing Beast]

...

The knowledge of God does not in itself force someone to act, it is the fact that he knows what will happen that is the key and what that means. How does he know it? It is because he knows each of us so well he knows what choices we make. We may be self-determined therefore, but if he is omniscient to the point of knowing exactly what we will do, we are so self-determined as to have no choice to change our path. Whether or not God is the programmer, if men are programmed to behave a certain way (externally by environment or God or something else or internally by our eternal nature), then our behaviour is determined though in the latter case one could say self-determined at least.

Is "God" programmed? Everything that "God" Is and does is already a "done deal". Arguing that man does not possess free will goes back to asserting that such does not exist in the first place. If "God" possesses free will so do the sovereign souls connected to "God". The only difference I can see is that we are living inside of Creation, spacetime, while "God In Total" causes spacetime and sees all things as NOW. To us, "now" never exists, because we are always moving and not even the slightest moment can be defined as "now". That means that we are all constantly making choices, all on our own, but all known to "God". Our nature determines choices we make, and our nature Is part of our uniqueness as we come to exist. So in a sense what we decide was predetermined by our nature. But our nature is always one of choosing. Choosing is probably the singular feature resulting from our sapience. "God" created us to make choices, that's what free will Is. Along with our 'satiable imaginations, the power to choose is our most Godlike attribute....

[Questing Beast]

Gods foreknowledge doesn't prevent them from repenting. He just knows they will not.

If "sons of perdition" are literally real and not just a use of typology, then what "God" knows is that those souls on this planet will not repent, yet. Eternity is after all an "Endless" amount of time. To assert that such souls will "never repent" is to make "God" a monster, in creating souls that by their "God-given" nature were made to be miserable forever....

[Stone holm]

If "sons of perdition" are literally real and not just a use of typology, then what "God" knows is that those souls on this planet will not repent, yet. Eternity is after all an "Endless" amount of time. To assert that such souls will "never repent" is to make "God" a monster, in creating souls that by their "God-given" nature were made to be miserable forever....

You have a different concept of creation than I do. God creates our spirit bodies in the same way our Earthly fathers created our earthly bodies. The Intelligences who inhabit our spiritual bodies are not created but eternal. Next question?

[Questing Beast]

Depends on your definition of all knowledge. Do I believe that God can predict the course of events in a macro sense? Yes. Does God have absolute knowledge that we will do such and such? No. As I have said before the agency of mankind is a key doctrine. You cannot have free agency if the outcome is known for a certainty, and I refuse to believe that a just and merciful God would send a specific individual into mortality knowing there was no hope but what that specific individual would commit acts that would condemn him to a fate wherein it would have been better that he was never born. I do not believe in predestination, I do not believe that anyone was sent here without any real hope of succeeding. I do believe that God knew that a certain percentage would fail, and that He knew certain individuals would probably fail.

And you demonstrate my problem with manmade dogmatic assertions. All such "game over" assertions are manmade. "God" would never create any soul to ultimately be condemned by their very "God-given" nature to be miserable forever. As I said above, "sons of perdition", if such literally exist, can only be possible if their refusal to repent is not permanent. To assume that "God" deliberately caused some natures to be unrepentant for all of time and eternity is to make "God" into a monster. There is no evidence for this, but there is plenty of evidence that men make up a great many things to scare the hell out of people and control them....

[Questing Beast]

You have a different concept of creation than I do. God creates our spirit bodies in the same way our Earthly fathers created our earthly bodies. The Intelligences who inhabit our spiritual bodies are not created but eternal. Next question?

What caused the existence of "intelligences"? What caused Existence itself?... Edited June 30, 2013 by Questing Beast

[Bikeemikey]

You have a different concept of creation than I do. God creates our spirit bodies in the same way our Earthly fathers created our earthly bodies. The Intelligences who inhabit our spiritual bodies are not created but eternal. Next question?

Here's a question:

If earthy bodies procreate earthly bodies why do perfected celestial bodies procreate imperfect spiritual bodies of a presumably totally different type of element-matter?

Edited June 30, 2013 by Bikeemikey

[Stargazer]

My view on God's foreknowledge is that he sees the end from the beginning perfectly and knows, for example, what will happen to me. I won't be able to surprise Him. I am convinced of this because of two talks on the subject of the Book of Revelation in which Richard D. Draper lays this out.

I find this simultaneously comforting and perplexing.

[Calm]

Here's a question:

If earthy bodies procreate earthly bodies why do perfected celestial bodies procreate imperfect spiritual bodies of a presumably totally different type of element-matter?

In my view the creation process is different for spiritual bodies than for physical. I see it as likely requiring input from both male and female, but the body may not be formed overtime, but may be in a 'twinkling of a eye'. It is easier to imagine if one thinks of spirit as energy, it is just gathering energy to cloth the matter of intelligence whatever that might be, but since spirit is also matter, it probably takes more effort to bind the two together permanently. Perhaps the mother and father both provide a 'spark' of their own spirit which provides a blueprint like DNA and then links to the intelligence and forms around it in some way simply by gathering energy and material from the surrounding environment rather than being incubated in the mother. Perhaps the spiritual body is a much simpler, though more refined matter and thus does not need such an elaborate form of procreation to exist.

And if that is the process, it could be limited to only certain aspects such that it is not a full replication of the parents' bodies in the child, but only a partial replication of the spiritual aspects and not the intelligence or physical body.