Hymn 284: If You Could Hie To Kolob

[Scott Lloyd]

I was in southern Utah on one occasion and hied to Kolob.

It's a mountain near St. George.

[Ahab]

I was in southern Utah on one occasion and hied to Kolob.

It's a mountain near St. George.

How fast did you go? Did you get there in the twink of an eye? I'd like to be to hie that fast, sometimes.

I think from now on when I'm in a rush I'm going to let people know I am just trying to hie.

[Scott Lloyd]

Yep, some sooner than others.

Maybe he was dwelling too much on Christ's marital status.

[Tacenda]

I was in southern Utah on one occasion and hied to Kolob.

It's a mountain near St. George.

I was in southern Utah on one occasion and hied to Kolob.

It's a mountain near St. George.

Well I didn't hied to but have visited Moroni, Manti, Lehi, Nephi, Bountiful, Ephraim and few more. Here are several more if anyone wants to see them.

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/818765/Religious-place-names-are-abundant-in-Utah.html?pg=all

[Calm]

If we are all in perfect unity and one with Christ as Christ is one with the Father (see John 17), I see no need for subjection as we might think of it with our limited mortal understanding.

Exactly.

[Calm]

the reining in of certain apologetics groups to safer ground.

???

[Questing Beast]

Do you see the difference between what I said and what you're saying? If your understanding were true then nobody would ever be lost as a son (or daughter) of Perdition, but the truth is that there are some and there always will be and because of their own choices to reject the full blessings of the gospel including those sealings. The parents may have accepted their part of the sealing ordinances and they would probably know where those who were once their children went, but the faithfulness of the parents doesn't mean the children will be or become faithful. At most they would only be able to help those people choose to accept their part of the ordinance and the blessings of it.

You need to read the "tentacles of divine providence" promise and Boyd K. Packer's exegesis on it again, and again, it appears.

There is a B. Young discourse where he states that nobody is ultimately lost, but that even sons of perdition will eventually be remade and start over, words to that effect. This got people into trouble, and a family friend back in the 60s got Xed over teaching this doctrine, but B. Young said it, so you can take it to the bank.

You see the problem? JS said nobody is lost if the parents keep their temple covenants. Yet we have "sons of perdition". A direct conflict/inconsistency. The obvious answer is that "Eternal" and "Infinite" and "Everlasting" are the names of "God", and do not pertain to "forever", as in never ending, but such words are used to more fully work upon the hearts of men to stir them up to repentance.

If all are saved is a damnable doctrine, then JS, B. Young and Boyd K. Packer are damned. But perhaps "all are saved" is the ultimate destiny of every soul, because "God" makes nobody to fail to become a joyful person. No matter how long it takes, to "God" it is all Joy and not misery; why would "God" create a soul that cannot succeed to be joyful?

Why would anyone put off pursuing Joy? There is only learning from mistakes left to experience. That is the peace that should come to any parent when they see a son or daughter choosing foolishly. Eventually each one of them will "get it" and turn away from destructive choices and behaviors. To convince themselves that the loss of a few children is inevitable is to deny what God Is, which Is the victory of success, not the acceptance of failure....

[Ahab]

You need to read the "tentacles of divine providence" promise and Boyd K. Packer's exegesis on it again, and again, it appears.

There is a B. Young discourse where he states that nobody is ultimately lost, but that even sons of perdition will eventually be remade and start over, words to that effect. This got people into trouble, and a family friend back in the 60s got Xed over teaching this doctrine, but B. Young said it, so you can take it to the bank.

You see the problem? JS said nobody is lost if the parents keep their temple covenants. Yet we have "sons of perdition". A direct conflict/inconsistency. The obvious answer is that "Eternal" and "Infinite" and "Everlasting" are the names of "God", and do not pertain to "forever", as in never ending, but such words are used to more fully work upon the hearts of men to stir them up to repentance.

If all are saved is a damnable doctrine, then JS, B. Young and Boyd K. Packer are damned. But perhaps "all are saved" is the ultimate destiny of every soul, because "God" makes nobody to fail to become a joyful person. No matter how long it takes, to "God" it is all Joy and not misery; why would "God" create a soul that cannot succeed to be joyful?

Why would anyone put off pursuing Joy? There is only learning from mistakes left to experience. That is the peace that should come to any parent when they see a son or daughter choosing foolishly. Eventually each one of them will "get it" and turn away from destructive choices and behaviors. To convince themselves that the loss of a few children is inevitable is to deny what God Is, which Is the victory of success, not the acceptance of failure....

Again you don't seem to see how close we are in our paradigms, so maybe it would help you if I say that I both agree and don't agree with you. People can refuse to accept the binding ties and if they do there will be gaps between those who accept them. On the other hand, the people who accept them will still have some kind of connection to those who did not accept the binding ties, knowing where those in the gaps have gone and able to help them if they later choose to accept the help they can give them. There would still be a period when they refused the help they offered, though, so it's not as if it's all hunky dory with no problems at all going on.

Say for example that 3 father/mother couples in a family line refuse to accept the binding ties, with a father/mother couples on both ends who accept them. (I'm saying "father/mother couples" instead of husband/wife couples because I'm talking about people who weren't sealed to each other and possibly not even legally married according to the laws of the land where they lived while on Earth, but still they pro-created some children together which has extended the family line.) So, if they never do accept the binding ties, there will always be that gap in the family line and yet both ends will be connected by the people who accept the binding ties. Thus, it will be as if there is no gap, and yet they'll both know who is missing.

It could be that at some point in eternity, later, those who refused to accept the binding ties would accept them, at which time they would be inserted back into where they were in the family tree, but if they don't ever accept them then there will always be that gap yet those who accepted them will still be able to work together as the gap had been filled because there will still be a connection between those 2 couples.

Thus, in summary, you can choose to refuse the connection, but you can also choose to accept it.

[Questing Beast]

...

Thus, in summary, you can choose to refuse the connection, but you can also choose to accept it.

And, according to JS, et al. everyone in a sealed family will accept it, eventually, so the angst of parents over "wayward" children, even in the afterlife, is unfounded.

You seem very focused on this planet and its inhabitants, in a universe effectively infinite in its vastness. I don't believe that Earth is at all significant in that paradigm of immortals inhabiting an infinitely expanding universe. Our other-worldly ties to each other transcend anything that occurs during our "three score years and ten" as mortals....

[Stone holm]

And, according to JS, et al. everyone in a sealed family will accept it, eventually, so the angst of parents over "wayward" children, even in the afterlife, is unfounded.

You seem very focused on this planet and its inhabitants, in a universe effectively infinite in its vastness. I don't believe that Earth is at all significant in that paradigm of immortals inhabiting an infinitely expanding universe. Our other-worldly ties to each other transcend anything that occurs during our "three score years and ten" as mortals....

And then the relevance of mortality is?

[Questing Beast]

And then the relevance of mortality is?

Exposure to "opposition in all things". Rather than take a perfect world and degrade it, why not "sleep" and enter into an imperfect world, already created with death in it and ultimate dissolution? Something like that concept anyway. It is simpler and makes "God" perfectly loving and charitable, i.e. such a concept answers all the nagging, angry questions seeking an answer to the presence of evil. If immortal beings are perfect, yet lack knowledge because their existence is perfectly Joyful and they see it not, how then to get perfectly Joyful immortals to see their existence for what it is and feel gratitude for being Joyful? If Joy is what "God" is all about, then how does "God" give free will to each unique person and have that result in choices that result in comprehending Joy and being grateful for existence? Only contrast, opposition, will teach by experience what Joy Is and is not. And mortality does that perfectly, while at the same time not being permanent or having any power over the perfect immortals who go through it. Once you are through "being there" (here), you find yourself awakened (literally) to a different perspective. You will have learned things, forever, which deepen your sense of how perfectly blessed you are as an immortal, never having to be those things that you seemed to be or go through those things that you seemed to go through, etc. Just the memories of those very real experiences will be sufficient to create eternally increasing gratitude, which results in experiencing awareness of being in a state of Joy. We must increase in Joy forever, as we learn more about "God", who Is Infinite, in other words we will never know all there is to know.

This is the paradigm that has been growing in my mind since I admitted the failure of efforts to gain and grow religious faith within the LDS religion. It could all be symbolic, or a mere beginning of "starting over", baby steps in seeking, or it could be a true vision of something infinitely bigger. I don't know. All I do know is that I accept the Necessary Cause for Existence In The First Place. I exist, so that requires an explanation. This world is palpably disappointing. It also requires an explanation. The paradigm of perfect immortals having an imperfect experience makes the most sense out of it, requiring the fewest "parts" to explain it....

Edited June 21, 2013 by Questing Beast

[Ahab]

The paradigm of perfect immortals having an imperfect experience makes the most sense out of it, requiring the fewest "parts" to explain it....

I enjoy figuring out things that are complicated, even in games, so it doesn't bother me to have many "parts" to put together kinda like solving a puzzle, and I can see some truth to what you're saying depending on how you are thinking about it what I can see through your words.

First, we were perfect immortals in the sense that we didn't have any sin, and then we were not perfect immortals anymore because of the sins we committed, and now we're still not perfect immortals UNLESS we have repented from our sins and the atonement has removed all those sins from our life. Lack of sin isn't the only issue in regards to being a perfect immortal, though, because the goal is to become like our Father and there is a lot more to him than simply being without any sin. Intelligence, love, and a great sense of humor, for example... plus as immortals we would also need to be the same kind of being he is to be as perfect as him.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

For those who don't have their hymn books handy:

1. If you could hie to Kolob

In the twinkling of an eye,

And then continue onward

With that same speed to fly,

Do you think that you could ever,

Through all eternity,

Find out the generation

Where Gods began to be?

It's an awesome thought. I imagine how fast I would have to be travelling to get to Kolob in the twinkling of an eye, and then at the same rate of speed continuing onward further and further and deeper and deeper into the universe, seeing galaxies and nebulas whizzing by the further and deeper I went. I'd also think that maybe, just maybe, the further I went the more I would be going back to older generations, you know, since I'd be starting from here and thinking that our Father is maybe closer to us than his Father before him and his Father before him, etc. So maybe it could be that the further and deeper I went into the universe the more I would see of past generations where our Father's Father and Grandfather, etc, had their own galaxies to govern. So, anyway, as I was traveling at that high rate of speed I'd be wondering if there was ever going to be a place where the galaxies ended and there was nothing but empty space, thinking maybe the first generation of our kind of being would maybe be out that far into the universe. But as far as my answer to the question goes, No, I don't think I'd ever get to the point where the first generation of our kind of being came to be, because I don't believe there is a first generation. But who knows, maybe if I traveled far and deep enough I could be proven to be wrong.

Anyways, here is the rest of the song:

2. Or see the grand beginning,

Where space did not extend?

Or view the last creation,

Where Gods and matter end?

Methinks the Spirit whispers,

“No man has found ‘pure space,’

Nor seen the outside curtains,

Where nothing has a place.”

3. The works of God continue,

And worlds and lives abound;

Improvement and progression

Have one eternal round.

There is no end to matter;

There is no end to space;

There is no end to spirit;

There is no end to race.

4. There is no end to virtue;

There is no end to might;

There is no end to wisdom;

There is no end to light.

There is no end to union;

There is no end to youth;

There is no end to priesthood;

There is no end to truth.

5. There is no end to glory;

There is no end to love;

There is no end to being;

There is no death above.

There is no end to glory;

There is no end to love;

There is no end to being;

There is no death above.

Text: William W. Phelps, 1792–1872

For those who don't have their hymn books handy:

1. If you could hie to Kolob

In the twinkling of an eye,

And then continue onward

With that same speed to fly,

Do you think that you could ever,

Through all eternity,

Find out the generation

Where Gods began to be?

It's an awesome thought. I imagine how fast I would have to be travelling to get to Kolob in the twinkling of an eye, and then at the same rate of speed continuing onward further and further and deeper and deeper into the universe, seeing galaxies and nebulas whizzing by the further and deeper I went. I'd also think that maybe, just maybe, the further I went the more I would be going back to older generations, you know, since I'd be starting from here and thinking that our Father is maybe closer to us than his Father before him and his Father before him, etc. So maybe it could be that the further and deeper I went into the universe the more I would see of past generations where our Father's Father and Grandfather, etc, had their own galaxies to govern. So, anyway, as I was traveling at that high rate of speed I'd be wondering if there was ever going to be a place where the galaxies ended and there was nothing but empty space, thinking maybe the first generation of our kind of being would maybe be out that far into the universe. But as far as my answer to the question goes, No, I don't think I'd ever get to the point where the first generation of our kind of being came to be, because I don't believe there is a first generation. But who knows, maybe if I traveled far and deep enough I could be proven to be wrong.

Anyways, here is the rest of the song:

2. Or see the grand beginning,

Where space did not extend?

Or view the last creation,

Where Gods and matter end?

Methinks the Spirit whispers,

“No man has found ‘pure space,’

Nor seen the outside curtains,

Where nothing has a place.”

3. The works of God continue,

And worlds and lives abound;

Improvement and progression

Have one eternal round.

There is no end to matter;

There is no end to space;

There is no end to spirit;

There is no end to race.

4. There is no end to virtue;

There is no end to might;

There is no end to wisdom;

There is no end to light.

There is no end to union;

There is no end to youth;

There is no end to priesthood;

There is no end to truth.

5. There is no end to glory;

There is no end to love;

There is no end to being;

There is no death above.

There is no end to glory;

There is no end to love;

There is no end to being;

There is no death above.

Text: William W. Phelps, 1792–1872

As a poet, I wish I had written this great poem…as it started. W.W. Phelps left the Church for a time. One of the great stories of Church history is how Joseph (a close friend of his) welcomed him back and forgave him. Many of our songs we sing were written by this great and talented mind, not to mention the song we sing at every Temple dedication. Then, “Thank Thee O God For A Prophet”, written after Joseph’s death. As a poet he is one of my favorites.

[Kenngo1969]

I was in southern Utah on one occasion and hied to Kolob.

It's a mountain near St. George.

Did you do it in the twinkling of an eye?

[Five Solas]

For those who don't have their hymn books handy:

1. If you could hie to Kolob

In the twinkling of an eye,

And then continue onward

With that same speed to fly,

Do you think that you could ever,

Through all eternity,

Find out the generation

Where Gods began to be?

It's an awesome thought.

Awesome if you're big on polytheism. Kinda hard to escape here, isn't it?

--Erik

[Questing Beast]

I enjoy figuring out things that are complicated, even in games, so it doesn't bother me to have many "parts" to put together kinda like solving a puzzle, and I can see some truth to what you're saying depending on how you are thinking about it what I can see through your words.

First, we were perfect immortals in the sense that we didn't have any sin, and then we were not perfect immortals anymore because of the sins we committed, and now we're still not perfect immortals UNLESS we have repented from our sins and the atonement has removed all those sins from our life. Lack of sin isn't the only issue in regards to being a perfect immortal, though, because the goal is to become like our Father and there is a lot more to him than simply being without any sin. Intelligence, love, and a great sense of humor, for example... plus as immortals we would also need to be the same kind of being he is to be as perfect as him.

Existence In The First Place is infinitely complicated. As we are part of that Existence we are part of that infinite complexity. That doesn't mean that the truth behind what this world Is must be complicated. A simple statement can imply infinite complexity, for instance, "God is Infinite" is the simplest of statements, is true, and yet cannot be comprehended, only apprehended. To assert that this mortal world is probably a "virtual reality experience" for immortals, is a simple statement, probably true, and yet is infinitely complex in its implications. If you want to dig into the "nuts and bolts" of how it all works, I am sure you are going to be engaged in that study forever, or to your heart's content.

Of course, we are meant to be "like God". How could we be otherwise? Our origins are not other-Godly, but only from One Source. The most clear idea I have on the topic of immortals still learning to be like "God", i.e. Joyfully perfect, is one where each individual goes through as many immortal experiences as necessary to comprehend what Joy Is. Those who do not "get it" cannot return to their original, innocent state in the "home world", what we refer to as "heaven", until they learn enough about what Joy Is to not screw up in the presence of those who already "get it". In its simplest metaphorical context, "children should be seen, not heard"! If you know how to behave yourself as a Joyful person, you can "come home", otherwise, you must remain "in school" until you "graduate". Once we know what Joy Is, we have still not achieved a fulness of Joy, and never will, because "God" is infinitely Joyful, while we are finite beings, always learning more about Joy and feeling more Joy. All beings in "the home world" are engaged in "collecting more Joy", as it were. We want to OD on Joy! What could be more eternally engaging than that?

But to become such a person requires learning, first, what Joy is not, and that can only come through opposition, so here we are....

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

As a poet, I wish I had written this great poem…as it started. W.W. Phelps left the Church for a time. One of the great stories of Church history is how Joseph (a close friend of his) welcomed him back and forgave him. Many of our songs we sing were written by this great and talented mind, not to mention the song we sing at every Temple dedication. Then, “Thank Thee O God For A Prophet”, written after Joseph’s death. As a poet he is one of my favorites.

Made a mistake, Willian Fowler wrote "We Thank Thee O God For A Prophet"...Phelps wrote "Praise To The Man".

[Questing Beast]

Then that's at least two poets who are your favorites.

[Stone holm]

Awesome if you're big on polytheism. Kinda hard to escape here, isn't it?

--Erik

Yes and no. Yes we acknowledge the existence of a race of gods with endless generations, no we only worship Heavenly Father as our God. If. You want to make the polytheism charge stick you have to approach it from the angle that we believe Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost to be separate individuals. But even then you have a problem since we do not worship them separately, and we really do not worship the Holy Ghost, and only accept the Christ as our Savior and conduit to the Father.

[mfbukowski]

Awesome if you're big on polytheism. Kinda hard to escape here, isn't it?

--Erik

Who wants to?

Muslims think correctly that all Christians are polytheists at the core- are you sure you want to get into the Trinity?

[Stone holm]

Who wants to?

Muslims think correctly that all Christians are polytheists at the core- are you sure you want to get into the Trinity?

Have to agree I have never considered monotheism that big of a deal that we need to get down to the nitty gritty and let that drive our concept of Deity.

[mfbukowski]

Have to agree I have never considered monotheism that big of a deal that we need to get down to the nitty gritty and let that drive our concept of Deity.

It's just semantics

[Stone holm]

It's just semantics

Well 90% of the discussions on this Board are "just semantics".

[mfbukowski]

Well 90% of the discussions on this Board are "just semantics".

Yep.

Have you ever noticed I don't participate much of late?

[KevinG]

No connection to evolution at all as far as I can see.

Macro evolution takes a very long time. So does Hie To Kolob (especially at standard LDS ward conductor rates).