Hymn 284: If You Could Hie To Kolob

[alien236]

My thought has always been that eternity is not "unlimited time", but rather something beyond time, which is a construct for mortals. I've assumed that's how God can be "from everlasting to everlasting" even if He was once a man like ourselves, and how matter and gods and our own intelligences can have always existed (because otherwise it seems to me that at some point you would have to start with something coming out of nothing...) So that's what the first verse makes me think of.

[Kenngo1969]

If you guys are going to be listening to music as you hie to Kolob, and beyond, you're going to be missing out on the natural sounds of all that you'll be passing. Might want to turn it down at least a little bit. I'd rather just travel in silence for at least my first few trips.

This is off-topic, but how much sound is there in space? You can fit what I know about aural physics into a thimble, but I thought I remember hearing from the guys who'd spent a fair amount of time there that since space lacks atmosphere, sound doesn't travel well at all.

[Kenngo1969]

\

What makes a person qualified to bear the title of "God"? Is it reaching a certain level of knowledge

or more like someone 'knighting' you so to speak?

Thanks,

Jim

Being the same kind of being he is.... which we already are, by the way.

We're just not as perfect as our Father, yet, but you can still refer to all of us by the word we use to refer to the kind of being we are.

There's a difference between God "Big-G," and god "little-g." We will always be subordinate to Him. See how well that works? Edited June 15, 2013 by Kenngo1969

[Lightbearer]

What is the general reaction to the lyrics of the first verse of this hymn, in particular the part about the first generation in which Gods came to be.

A wonderful doctrinally accurate Hymn that helps one ponder the solmnities of eternity.

[Kenngo1969]

My thought has always been that eternity is not "unlimited time", but rather something beyond time, which is a construct for mortals. I've assumed that's how God can be "from everlasting to everlasting" even if He was once a man like ourselves, and how matter and gods and our own intelligences can have always existed (because otherwise it seems to me that at some point you would have to start with something coming out of nothing...) So that's what the first verse makes me think of.

Hey, there's a bunch of different dimensions whose existence has been postulated but not yet proven. and all kinds of things like wormholes and stuff! You can fit what I know about astrophysics and quantum mechanics into a realllly small thimble, but it does all sound pretty groovy to me!!

[volgadon]

That is not the way I read the lyrics, he is claiming that there have been so many that no matter how long you look you want find that first generation.

Such an interpretation is possible, but look at the rest of the verses. Phelps is certainly not suggesting that that there is a beginning to space, nor an end to Gods and matter.

Or see the grand beginning,

Where space did not extend?

Or view the last creation,

Where Gods and matter end?

Methinks the Spirit whispers,

“No man has found ‘pure space,’

Nor seen the outside curtains,

Where nothing has a place.”

3. The works of God continue,

And worlds and lives abound;

Improvement and progression

Have one eternal round.

There is no end to...

[Stone holm]

There is I admit the confusing element of Joseph's ring sermon. But although Phelps alludes to that perplexing sermon, I do not see where one gets the concept of one the ultimate or primal God as oppose to an endless procession of generations of gods from his lyrics.

[Garden Girl]

If you guys are going to be listening to music as you hie to Kolob, and beyond, you're going to be missing out on the natural sounds of all that you'll be passing. Might want to turn it down at least a little bit. I'd rather just travel in silence for at least my first few trips.

One of my favorite things in Brent and Wendy Tops' book, "Beyond Death's Door" where they documented their research findings in regard to near death experiences of non-LDS individuals, is that nearly all who experienced an NDE and were interviewed mentioned the beautiful "heavenly music." They all reported that it was "not music as we know it... that they had never heard anything like it before... a soothing symphony of indescribable beauty... music so beautiful that no composer could duplicate it... Bach is only the beginning!... soothing, gentle and warm and seemed to come from a source deep within me... powerful but somehow soothing... a rushing, moving sound, unlike anything I could remember, but familiar, just on the edge of my memory... I could describe it as a combination of vibrations..."

When I was an ordinance worker, I sometimes would find myself alone as I walked down a hallway on my way to my next assignment... and I would pray for the privilege of hearing the "heavenly music"... though I felt the Spirit, I was not able to hear the music...

In this dispensation, the Lord declared, "For my soul delighteth in the song of the heart, yea the song of the righteous is a prayer unto me..."

GG

[mfbukowski]

Well, the no end to race is a real problem, because race is a mortal construct completely (unless one is talking about the human race).

Everything is a mortal construct, even revelation itself.

[mfbukowski]

One of my favorite things in Brent and Wendy Tops' book, "Beyond Death's Door" where they documented their research findings in regard to near death experiences of non-LDS individuals, is that nearly all who experienced an NDE and were interviewed mentioned the beautiful "heavenly music." They all reported that it was "not music as we know it... that they had never heard anything like it before... a soothing symphony of indescribable beauty... music so beautiful that no composer could duplicate it... Bach is only the beginning!... soothing, gentle and warm and seemed to come from a source deep within me... powerful but somehow soothing... a rushing, moving sound, unlike anything I could remember, but familiar, just on the edge of my memory... I could describe it as a combination of vibrations..."

When I was an ordinance worker, I sometimes would find myself alone as I walked down a hallway on my way to my next assignment... and I would pray for the privilege of hearing the "heavenly music"... though I felt the Spirit, I was not able to hear the music...

In this dispensation, the Lord declared, "For my soul delighteth in the song of the heart, yea the song of the righteous is a prayer unto me..."

GG

Gotta go to bed but it's really funny you bring this up because I was on "guard duty" last night sitting at the front desk of the temple after all the sessions were in progress- no one coming in, because it was too late, nothing to do but study scriptures and I turned to section 88.

I don't have the time to edit out all the extraneous letters which are footnotes, so forgive the formatting-

But light is a "vibration" and it is also said to be the intelligencewhich fills and governs all of space-time- the Light of Christ. With that in mind, read this:

5 Which glory is that of the church of the aFirstborn, even of God, the holiest of all, through Jesus Christ his Son—

6 He that aascended up on high, as also he bdescended below all things, in that he ccomprehended all things, that he might be in all and through all things, the dlight of truth;

7 Which truth shineth. This is the alight of Christ. As also he is in the sun, and the light of the sun, and the power thereof by which it was bmade.

8 As also he is in the moon, and is the light of the moon, and the power thereof by which it was made;

9 As also the light of the stars, and the power thereof by which they were made;

10 And the earth also, and the power thereof, even the earth upon which you astand.

11 And the light which shineth, which giveth you light, is through him who enlighteneth your eyes, which is the same light that quickeneth your aunderstandings;

12 Which alight proceedeth forth from the presence of God to bfill the immensity of space—

13 The alight which is in all things, which giveth blife to all things, which is the claw by which all things are governed, even the dpower of God who esitteth upon his throne, who is in the bosom of eternity, who is in the midst of all things.

14 Now, verily I say unto you, that through the aredemption which is made for you is brought to pass the resurrection from the dead.

15 And the aspirit and the bbody are the csoul of man.

16 And the aresurrection from the dead is the redemption of the soul.

17 And the redemption of the soul is through him that aquickeneth all things, in whose bosom it is decreed that the bpoor and the cmeek of the dearth shall inherit it.

18 Therefore, it must needs be asanctified from all bunrighteousness, that it may be prepared for the ccelestial glory;

19 For after it hath filled the measure of its creation, it shall be crowned with aglory, even with the presence of God the Father;

20 That bodies who are of the acelestial kingdom may bpossess it forever and ever; for, for this cintent was it made and created, and for this intent are they dsanctified.

21 And they who are not asanctified through the blaw which I have given unto you, even the law of Christ, must inherit canother kingdom, even that of a terrestrial kingdom, or that of a telestial kingdom.

22 For he who is not able to abide the alaw of a celestial kingdom cannot babide a ccelestial glory.

23 And he who cannot abide the law of a aterrestrial kingdom cannot abide a terrestrial glory.

24 And he who cannot abide the law of a atelestial bkingdom cannot abide a telestial cglory; therefore he is not meet for a kingdom of glory. Therefore he must abide a kingdom which is not a kingdom of glory.

25 And again, verily I say unto you, the aearth abideth the law of a celestial kingdom, for it filleth the bmeasure of its creation, and transgresseth not the law—

26 Wherefore, it shall be asanctified; yea, notwithstanding it shall bdie, it shall be cquickened again, and shall abide the power by which it is quickened, and the drighteous shall einherit it.

27 For notwithstanding they die, they also shall arise again, a bspiritual body.

28 They who are of a celestial aspirit shall receive the same bbody which was a natural body; even ye shall receive your bodies, and your cglory shall be that glory by which your bodies are dquickened.

29 Ye who are aquickened by a portion of the bcelestial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness.

30 And they who are quickened by a portion of the aterrestrial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness.

31 And also they who are quickened by a portion of the atelestial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness.

32 And they who remain shall also be aquickened; nevertheless, they shall return again to their own place, to enjoy that which they are bwilling to receive, because they were not willing to enjoy that which they might have received.

33 For what doth it profit a man if a gift is bestowed upon him, and he receive not the gift? Behold, he rejoices not in that which is given unto him, neither rejoices in him who is the giver of the gift.

34 And again, verily I say unto you, that which is agoverned by law is also preserved by law and perfected and bsanctified by the same.

So we are "quickened" by the level of vibration - the frequency, tone or pitch, as it were- to which we are "tuned"- Celestial people are quickened by the celestial frequency and on down the spectrum

So it seems to me that this "vibration" thing is right on the money!

[Stone holm]

Gotta go to bed but it's really funny you bring this up because I was on "guard duty" last night sitting at the front desk of the temple after all the sessions were in progress- no one coming in, because it was too late, nothing to do but study scriptures and I turned to section 88.

I don't have the time to edit out all the extraneous letters which are footnotes, so forgive the formatting-

But light is a "vibration" and it is also said to be the intelligencewhich fills and governs all of space-time- the Light of Christ. With that in mind, read this:

So we are "quickened" by the level of vibration - the frequency, tone or pitch, as it were- to which we are "tuned"- Celestial people are quickened by the celestial frequency and on down the spectrum

So it seems to me that this "vibration" thing is right on the money!

Trying to remember quantum physics, doesn't the nature of light depend on the observation.

[mfbukowski]

Trying to remember quantum physics, doesn't the nature of light depend on the observation.

Yes!

That's kind of the point I am trying to make.

All of these ideas and models are stories "dependent on the observer"- including my vibration thingy above, and quantum physics, and your memory of what you ate for dinner last night.

All of those "things" are observations - and most imporantly INTERPRETATIONS of observations made by humans somewhere- sometime they are our personal interpretations- as my vibration thingy is- or those interpretations of observations are made by many people across the globe- like the "evidence" for quantum physics.

So a literalistic interpretation may be seen by one, and a symbolic interpretation might be seen by another- both are right and both are wrong.

We can never get down to "what is"- we can only get to stories about the observations we make.

So the "nature of light" depends on the observer's story as does the "nature" of anything. The whole problem is to get a comprehensive and consistent story that works for everyone- for scientists, religionists, and everyone else. But even if we get such a story, it will still be a story revisable as new evidence appears.

So a scientist makes an observation and the "story" or "theory" has to be revised. A prophet gets a revelation, and the story or "doctrine" has to be revised. But they are still all not complete representations of "TRVTH", immutable and eternal, nor can they ever be

That's my story and I'm stickin' to it

[bjw]

Since becoming a Rosicrucian I've really given a lot of thought to this hymn, and it is one of my favorite LDS hymns. One thing you learn in the Rosicrucian degrees is that all of creation has vibrations of the divine in them, everything that is matter. All matter goes back to its original state with the divine. I think this is compatibile with LDS doctrine.

I like to look at it as God being all that was in existence. There was nothing that existed except God. God was alone and then had a wife and son. Thus the feminine and Son states were borm. However, this was not enough. So, God created Kolob through the Son, made himself a body and lived and died on that planet. Thus, good and evil and the principles of opposites, sexual relations, etc. was born. Then, many planets later, on our Earth that was created The Son came down in a body as Jesus Christ, He lived and died as His Father did, since He said He does nothing but what He sees His Father do. Now, we have the same chance as creations of God to become as He is. So, all of matter, including people and animals, and galaxies, are all born from Heavenly Father. That's the way I look at it. Since going through the temple I think this view is compatible with LDS doctrine.

[Stone holm]

Since becoming a Rosicrucian I've really given a lot of thought to this hymn, and it is one of my favorite LDS hymns. One thing you learn in the Rosicrucian degrees is that all of creation has vibrations of the divine in them, everything that is matter. All matter goes back to its original state with the divine. I think this is compatibile with LDS doctrine.

I like to look at it as God being all that was in existence. There was nothing that existed except God. God was alone and then had a wife and son. Thus the feminine and Son states were borm. However, this was not enough. So, God created Kolob through the Son, made himself a body and lived and died on that planet. Thus, good and evil and the principles of opposites, sexual relations, etc. was born. Then, many planets later, on our Earth that was created The Son came down in a body as Jesus Christ, He lived and died as His Father did, since He said He does nothing but what He sees His Father do. Now, we have the same chance as creations of God to become as He is. So, all of matter, including people and animals, and galaxies, are all born from Heavenly Father. That's the way I look at it. Since going through the temple I think this view is compatible with LDS doctrine.

That does not sound particularly consistent with LDS teachings to me, although I admit to being thoroughly baffled with the ring sermon in a theology that teaches eternal progression and not reincarnation.

[mfbukowski]

That does not sound particularly consistent with LDS teachings to me, although I admit to being thoroughly baffled with the ring sermon in a theology that teaches eternal progression and not reincarnation.

What happened "before" the big bang? There was no time, so it doesn't even make sense to discuss a time before time.-- there WAS no time before the big bang- and yet it was supposedly an event which happened- it was a progression from state 1 to state 2- so there had to be a "before" and an "after" in some sense. It is a paradox- our language cannot handle it, our stories for it don't make sense.

But what if an "eternity" is like one big bang leading to one big crunch where time erases itself and starts over?

https://en.wikipedia...wiki/Big_Crunch

In physical cosmology, the Big Crunch is one possible scenario for the ultimate fate of the universe, in which the metric expansion of space eventually reverses and the universe recollapses, ultimately ending as a black hole singularity or causing a reformation of the universe starting with another big bang.

In a sense you would have an eternity and then a successive eternity etc, each one "one eternal round".

But from God's perspective - His view of eternity would include successive periods, each one an "eternity" to us little worms on this planet

So which is right- is eternity forever from God's perspective or from ours?

As usual the problem is that out language cannot handle this sorts of ideas so they sound paradoxical when they really are just confusing the definition for one kind of "eternity" with another.

So as one is exalted, maybe you move now into God's perspective and see each eternity as a kind of "reincarnation" not of individuals, but of worlds and universes.

In this scenario, there is no conflict with both being true simultaneously.

Edited June 16, 2013 by mfbukowski

[ERayR]

What happened "before" the big bang? There was no time, so it doesn't even make sense to discuss a time before time.-- there WAS no time before the big bang- and yet it was supposedly an event which happened- it was a progression from state 1 to state 2- so there had to be a "before" and an "after" in some sense. It is a paradox- our language cannot handle it, our stories for it don't make sense.

But what if an "eternity" is like one big bang leading to one big crunch where time erases itself and starts over?

https://en.wikipedia...wiki/Big_Crunch

In a sense you would have an eternity and then a successive eternity etc, each one "one eternal round".

But from God's perspective - His view of eternity would include successive periods, each one an "eternity" to us little worms on this planet

So which is right- is eternity forever from God's perspective or from ours?

As usual the problem is that out language cannot handle this sorts of ideas so they sound paradoxical when they really are just confusing the definition for one kind of "eternity" with another.

So as one is exalted, maybe you move now into God's perspective and see each eternity as a kind of "reincarnation" not of individuals, but of worlds and universes.

In this scenario, there is no conflict with both being true simultaneously.

Or it could be viewed as linear with no beginning or end with time only meaningful as a measure of finite segments. Oh I have such a headache.

[mfbukowski]

Or it could be viewed as linear with no beginning or end with time only meaningful as a measure of finite segments. Oh I have such a headache.

Exactly!

The idea that the universe recycles itself is a common one in Eastern religions. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternal_return

[ERayR]

Exactly!

The idea that the universe recycles itself is a common one in Eastern religions. https://en.wikipedia.../Eternal_return

With an unending universe I see no reason for recycling, except maybe to get rid of ones mistakes.

[Stone holm]

With an unending universe I see no reason for recycling, except maybe to get rid of ones mistakes.

Yeah, the ring sermon is one that has never made sense to me. We are not an Eastern religion.

[mfbukowski]

Yeah, the ring sermon is one that has never made sense to me. We are not an Eastern religion.

And of course there is no possibility that there might be some truth in those cursed pagan savages- is that what you are saying?

One might actually think that the true church would be a synthesis of all the most noble truths of mankind and harmonize all these truths in one grand vision.

At least that is what I thought when I discovered these doctrines in Mormonism after studying Buddhism. Why you see it as a negative is perhaps something you might want to think about, bishop.

[volgadon]

And of course there is no possibility that there might be some truth in those cursed pagan savages- is that what you are saying?

One might actually think that the true church would be a synthesis of all the most noble truths of mankind and harmonize all these truths in one grand vision.

At least that is what I thought when I discovered these doctrines in Mormonism after studying Buddhism. Why you see it as a negative is perhaps something you might want to think about, bishop.

Don Bradley's article is fantastic. https://www.sunstonemagazine.com/pdf/141-32-41.pdf

[volgadon]

That does not sound particularly consistent with LDS teachings to me, although I admit to being thoroughly baffled with the ring sermon in a theology that teaches eternal progression and not reincarnation.

By "ring sermon" do you mean the King Follet Discourse? Seems a little idiosyncratic to call it such.

The ring sermon makes perfect sense. There is an element of the spirit which is divine and eternal. It has no beginning, and no end. By overcoming the beginning, IE, this temporal stage, it becomes greater than it was.

[Stone holm]

By "ring sermon" do you mean the King Follet Discourse? Seems a little idiosyncratic to call it such.

The ring sermon makes perfect sense. There is an element of the spirit which is divine and eternal. It has no beginning, and no end. By overcoming the beginning, IE, this temporal stage, it becomes greater than it was.

No. At least I don't think so. Joseph had a ring that on the face of the ring there was a beveled circle, I think they sell reproductions of the ring at Mormon bookstores. In any event, he described eternity as being without beginning or end like his ring. Hopefully, if somebody else has the exact wording of the talk they can provide it. I believe the saying "one eternal round" comes from that talk. I don't remember it as being in the King Follett sermon. As someone else has said on this thread it would be consistent with certain Eastern religions, I don't see it as consistent with ours. I did not mean that as a put down of Eastern religions, if I ever left the Church, I would gravitate towards them rather than mainline Christianity which I find too shallow and judgmental for my tastes.

[Questing Beast]

Since becoming a Rosicrucian I've really given a lot of thought to this hymn, and it is one of my favorite LDS hymns. One thing you learn in the Rosicrucian degrees is that all of creation has vibrations of the divine in them, everything that is matter. All matter goes back to its original state with the divine. I think this is compatibile with LDS doctrine.

I like to look at it as God being all that was in existence. There was nothing that existed except God. God was alone and then had a wife and son. Thus the feminine and Son states were borm. However, this was not enough. So, God created Kolob through the Son, made himself a body and lived and died on that planet. Thus, good and evil and the principles of opposites, sexual relations, etc. was born. Then, many planets later, on our Earth that was created The Son came down in a body as Jesus Christ, He lived and died as His Father did, since He said He does nothing but what He sees His Father do. Now, we have the same chance as creations of God to become as He is. So, all of matter, including people and animals, and galaxies, are all born from Heavenly Father. That's the way I look at it. Since going through the temple I think this view is compatible with LDS doctrine.

Works for me. But JS surely did not have remotely close perceptions about "who" GtF Is. There's a huge difference between saying that all intelligence has eternally existed, and GtF is "more intelligent than they all", and asserting (as you and I do) that GtF is merely a manifestation/creation coming out of "God being all [of] existence".

"Mormon mysticism" allows that none of us really knows what s/he is talking about when we try to define what "God" Is, because we use finite terms to try and describe the Infinite....

[volgadon]

No. At least I don't think so. Joseph had a ring that on the face of the ring there was a beveled circle, I think they sell reproductions of the ring at Mormon bookstores. In any event, he described eternity as being without beginning or end like his ring. Hopefully, if somebody else has the exact wording of the talk they can provide it.

That is in the King Follet Discourse.

I believe the saying "one eternal round" comes from that talk.

1 Nephi 10:19, Alma 37:12, and various D&C scriptures.

Edited June 16, 2013 by volgadon