Life Without A Temple Recommend

[EllenMaksoud]

So there is a person who, though they believed in God, never thought she could be saved, her sins having been too severe to forgive in her estimation. Finally, after months of being taught by missionaries she began to believe that perhaps it could be possible to be saved from outer darkness. She began to believe and finally felt the joy of Baptism, and confirmation. She felt so much joy, it seemed as if she would burst. After many months her world crashed when she found out that because of the nature of her sin, she would not get Temple Privileges. After the tears of disappointment, despair set in, but being firm in her beliefs, save the atonement, she decided just to get to work and serve. though the atonement is no longer real to her, she knows that she loves God, and if she is devout enough, and works hard enough, he will have mercy on her.

What a painful and hopeless place to be. Will any of you pray for her?

Needing solace, she grabbed her "Preach My Gospel" and decided to go study in back of the Temple alone. Most of her life she's been alone, though she never thought she would live out her days alone, save for God.

[Storm Rider]

The thoughts that this poor sister is enduring are more commonly known as the wiles of the evil one; the twisting and pseudo guilt that he uses to convince a child of God that they are unworthy of the blood of the Lamb of God. In reality, this is a tactic that is well known among those who seek discipleship and to be followers of Jesus Christ. The OT tells us in Isaiah 1:18 - 18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool. What would prevent a child of God from understanding the love of their Father in Heaven for them? Where does the teaching come that our sins are so unique, so evil, that they cannot possibly be forgiven by our Father? These are the workings of Satan and only he is benefited by such thoughts; they stunt the growth of the disciple and prevent the child of God from allowing themselves to feel loved. This life, in so many ways, is a testing ground. We are asked to endure, to persevere, to keep taking one more step. When we entered the waters of baptism all our sins were forgiven. As we prepare to partake of the Sacrament each week, we prepare for reflecting over the past week and seeking God's forgiveness for our sins and recommit to take upon us the name of Jesus again. In so doing, we are forgiven of our sins anew and we try our best to live holy lives. This principle is fundamental to discipleship. God's mercy is full and I don't know of anyone that cannot be forgiven; save he who has denied the Holy Ghost (this bar is so high that few can even qualify for committing such a sin). Our Father is so eager to forgive us that we barely need to express our sorrow for sins and we are forgiven. The more challenging forgiveness to gain is that forgiveness that we give ourselves. We are often our worst and harshest judge. It is always wise to ask who benefits most from my attitude? When you see that it is only Satan, you quickly realize that it is worth having faith that our Father's love is real, baptism is for the remission of sins, and weekly renewal of this covenant keeps us on the path of enjoying his infinite mercy.

[TAO]

There is no sin which will permanently deny you of the rites that are performed in the temple other than denying the Holy Ghost. It may be a long time, perhaps even after this life, but forgiveness may be granted to nearly all who seek it. I'd tell her to keep pushing, keep serving, and keep having faith in the atonement. God is quite merciful indeed.

Edited June 9, 2013 by TAO

[rayhale]

There are plenty of things you can do, even if you are denied the blessing of temple worship, or even baptism. You can read the scriptures, be a good influence towards others, for an example, if you murdered, or did some other major crime, you can see if you can be a volunteer for an at-risk teen, or adult, group, who needs someone that has been in their shoes, and needs some ‘peer pressure’ to be good, and not to be bad.

[Questing Beast]

@Ellen, this "person" you refer to as "she" is your transgender friend, correct? "S/he" still IDs as female, yet repents of the removal of his male parts. How can s/he be allowed in the temple if ID is still confused in everyone's minds? I think that you are upset by the apparent rejection of church authorities of the temple recommend request. If I had anything to offer to this messed up "person", it would be to say that aside from doing no harm to anyone, what does he think "God" requires more? It's not as if "God" is going to be *bleeped* off at him for his lapse in good judgment, resulting in the marring of his own body. That will thankfully end at death. Meanwhile, how is the ID issue going?...

[Kenngo1969]

I don't know for certain, since perhaps there are some nooks and crannies of obscure Church policy with which I am not familiar (and with which, with due respect, I have no desire to become familiar, thank you very much), but perhaps forgiveness of sin and full operation of the Atonement are different, on the one hand, from being allowed to attend the temple on the other hand. Perhaps it is possible to obtain the first without obtaining the second (if for no other reason than because our leaders, as much as they strive to be led aright by God, aren't perfect). I was once told by a Stake President who was about to interview me for my first Temple Recommend that if he was going to err, he wanted to err on the side of mercy rather than on the side of justice. Imperfection in our leaders is one reason, perhaps, why no calling (except for that as a parent) is permanent. Just because a leader says something doesn't necessarily mean that a subsequent leader won't say something different.

Things happen. I was once accused of some very inappropriate behavior which was alleged to have occurred while I was conducting some baptismal interviews as a missionary. Had certain of my leaders been less than diligent in looking into the matter, and had they been too willing to believe certain people who, though their understanding was incomplete, thought they knew the truth of the matter (and whose motivations I could scarcely fathom), I may have had action taken against me that would have left me in the uncomfortable position of wanting to remain faithful on the one hand, but having to admit to something that did not happen in the name of "repentance" on the other hand. Keep in mind, too, tha even though this person is your friend, you might not have the whole story. Even if there's no desire to deceive or to withhold facts, sometimes very important elements which are necessary for a full understanding of the matter get lost in translation. Perhaps your friend's leaders didn't convey certain things perfectly clearly, and perhaps your friend, in turn, didn't convey them to you perfectly clearly. (Have you ever played the "Telephone Game," in which one person whispers something to another, who in turn whispers it to another, and so on? It doesn't take very many retellings before what someone down the line bears little (if any) resemblance to what the first person heard.)

Even if Church policy currently says [x], there's no guarantee that will always be so, and even if a Church leader says [y], that doesn't mean that a leader in the future might not say [z]. I don't believe for one moment that being denied certain blessings in this life need mean that those blessings will be denied in eternity. Think of the Priesthood restriction: African blacks were once denied Priesthood and Temple blessings. I cannot fathom how difficult it would have been to be faithful under those circumstances, yet even though my brothers and sisters affected by the restriction temporarily were denied these blessings in mortality, I have no doubt that they have received them in eternity.

As for the imperfection of our leaders and how we ought to deal with that, I recently read an account that I believe could, if fully understood in the right spirit, lend some perspective to that issue. Here's Part One: http://timesandseaso...he-other-cheek/. And Here's Part Two: http://timesandseaso...r-cheek-pt-two/

P.S.: I second TAO's #3. My Young Padawan is wise beyond his years!

Edited June 9, 2013 by Kenngo1969

[Traela]

The Atonement is for everyone, but some things can't always be accomplished in this life. For instance, convicts can't even be baptized while they are still in prison, which puts those with life sentences in a difficult position, but NOT permanently out of reach of the Atonement.

There are also cases that can be resolved in this lifetime, but require approval from the First Presidency. And I tend to believe there are some circumstances that Jesus Christ himself has to deal with personally, one on one. These will be handled during the Millenium, a time when everything will be fixed.

[EllenMaksoud]

@Ellen, this "person" you refer to as "she" is your transgender friend, correct? "S/he" still IDs as female, yet repents of the removal of his male parts. How can s/he be allowed in the temple if ID is still confused in everyone's minds? I think that you are upset by the apparent rejection of church authorities of the temple recommend request. If I had anything to offer to this messed up "person", it would be to say that aside from doing no harm to anyone, what does he think "God" requires more? It's not as if "God" is going to be *bleeped* off at him for his lapse in good judgment, resulting in the marring of his own body. That will thankfully end at death. Meanwhile, how is the ID issue going?...

[EllenMaksoud]

@Ellen, this "person" you refer to as "she" is your transgender friend, correct? "S/he" still IDs as female, yet repents of the removal of his male parts. How can s/he be allowed in the temple if ID is still confused in everyone's minds? I think that you are upset by the apparent rejection of church authorities of the temple recommend request. If I had anything to offer to this messed up "person", it would be to say that aside from doing no harm to anyone, what does he think "God" requires more? It's not as if "God" is going to be *bleeped* off at him for his lapse in good judgment, resulting in the marring of his own body. That will thankfully end at death. Meanwhile, how is the ID issue going?...

Actually, she talked to her Bishop and stake president, she says, and both are not supportive of her living as a Man. Oddly, they do not seem to feel that returning to her old state is repentance. They think the sin was in the original operation and demonstrating the sorrow and contriteness is sufficient. This is a great surprise, and a position I support, not that that matters.

[Sleeper Cell]

What a painful and hopeless place to be. Will any of you pray for her?

Yes.

[Questing Beast]

Actually, she talked to her Bishop and stake president, she says, and both are not supportive of her living as a Man. Oddly, they do not seem to feel that returning to her old state is repentance. They think the sin was in the original operation and demonstrating the sorrow and contriteness is sufficient. This is a great surprise, and a position I support, not that that matters.

I'm not sure that any given bishop or stake president, or anybody else for that matter, is in a position to make that decision for him. If he has decided that whacking off his male parts was a mistake, that he's not really a "woman" in his own mind anymore (or ever, he just got confused back there), and he's convinced that he has it figured out now, he could move on as a "eunuch". It has been done to men before: they've had their privy member removed as well, as a punishment of the maximum order. Well, your friend is punishing himself now for a mistake. IDing as the male he was born to be seems like his choice, and everybody ought to respect that, for as long as it lasts that is; he can always change his mind again, and that would be returning to the original sin, which was the "sex change". If he's denying it, he should be allowed to express that denial as fully as he can. I think the church advice is wrong-headed. But that's just my reaction to what you've shared, for what it's worth. I'm not saying that he should be given a temple recommend anytime soon, though....

[Calm]

QB, I think it depends on his reasons for wanting to return to living as a male and whether or not it is for himself or others and whether or not he is spiritually guided to do so by the Spirit.

[daz2]

Your transgendered friend is in the same position that people of black African lineage were for a time. The withholding of ordination or temple privileges was a practice or policy, not an eternal principle. Even when the prior practice was in place, the Church's teachings were that priesthood/temple blessings would be provided at some time in the future. While there are no teachings associated with the policies regarding transgendered members, I believe the policy withholding priesthood ordination and temple blessings is because the Church's rituals and rites are gender specific and the Church as an institution is uncertain into which gender those who have undergone "elective" transsexual surgery belong. I could easily see at some point a revelation treating those who have undergone "elective" transsexual surgery into one gender or the other so that s/he can receive the appropriate gender specific rites or rituals. In other words, some day, I hope sooner rather than later, the way will be open for our brothers and sisters who have undergone elective transsexual surgery can enter and receive and renew temple rites and rituals.

[Yep]

Your friend should keep in mind the following:

Joseph Smith - "[R]emember that the God of all the earth will do right." - History of the Church, 6:302–3, 310–11, 315–16;

Lecture 6: On Faith

1. Having treated the ideas of the character, perfections, and attributes of God in the preceding lectures, we next proceed to treat the knowledge which persons must have that the course of life which they pursue is according to the will of God, so they may be enabled to exercise faith in him unto life and salvation.

2. This knowledge supplies an important place in revealed religion; for it was by reason of it that the ancients were enabled to endure “as seeing him who is invisible” (Heb 11 :27). It is essential for any person to have an actual knowledge that the course of life which he is pursuing is according to the will of God to enable him to have that confidence in God without which no person can obtain eternal life. It was this that enabled the ancient Saints to endure all their afflictions and persecutions and to take joyfully the spoiling of their goods, knowing (not believing merely) that they had a more enduring substance (Heb 10:34).

3. Having the assurance that they were pursuing a course which was agreeable to the will of God, they were enabled to take not only the spoiling of their goods and the wasting of their substance joyfully, but also to suffer death in its most horrid forms knowing (not merely believing) that when this “earthly house of this tabernacle [was] dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens” (2 Cor 5:1).

Regardless of what s/he did in the past, what matters is this moment forth. There may not be a complete restitution of the promised blessings lost (e.g. King David), but one can achieve a state where one will be happy and content. S/he should live the life that God would have them live, to the extent that s/he can. Hope for the best and assume that God will take care of everything that needs to be taken care of, that s/he will be where s/he should be whether it be Celestial or Telestial or somewhere in between. If temple work is needed, it will be taken care of at some point. I believe that the Taoists have much truth in their belief in a need for contentment in one's position and state.

I went through a divorce due to my ex-wife's affair. I am still waiting on clearance to be sealed to my wife. I know that if I am doing everything I need to, living my life as God would have me, whether or not the clearance is granted in this life, I will be eternally sealed to my wife in the eternities. The same is true of your friend, s/he will be taken care of, God will do right by her/him (and if his/her spirit is in the right place, it won't matter what that right is.)

[TAO]

Nice post Yep!

Edited June 10, 2013 by TAO

[Yep]

Nice post Yep!

Thank you. It, at times, gives one perspective when one's own past is imperfect and has great need of Christ's Atonement. I am extremely grateful for the forgiveness Christ affords us, and if I were to assume that that forgiveness is not afforded another, regardless of the severity of their sin, leaves me questioning whether or not I deserve forgiveness myself.

[ERayR]

Thank you. It, at times, gives one perspective when one's own past is imperfect and has great need of Christ's Atonement. I am extremely grateful for the forgiveness Christ affords us, and if I were to assume that that forgiveness is not afforded another, regardless of the severity of their sin, leaves me questioning whether or not I deserve forgiveness myself.

I agree forgiveness is possible and even likely. But which temple covenants are administered(male or female) is probably best left up to one who does not err.

[Avatar4321]

I went through a divorce due to my ex-wife's affair. I am still waiting on clearance to be sealed to my wife. I know that if I am doing everything I need to, living my life as God would have me, whether or not the clearance is granted in this life, I will be eternally sealed to my wife in the eternities. The same is true of your friend, s/he will be taken care of, God will do right by her/him (and if his/her spirit is in the right place, it won't matter what that right is.)

Im not sealed to my wife yet because she isnt a member yet. There are some days it seems like she never will be, but i know that's not true. The Lord gave me a promise that I would be sealed to her and my children and even if i have to wait till the other side of the veil, i know we will be sealed. So I just exercise faith in Christ and act as though we already are sealed, treating her as my Eternal companion. Because she is the love of my life. And I have faith that the Lord can and will seal us together. And if not, I trust in God's judgment. He can do as He pleases. I trust Him. What options are there?

[EllenMaksoud]

I'm not sure that any given bishop or stake president, or anybody else for that matter, is in a position to make that decision for him. If he has decided that whacking off his male parts was a mistake, that he's not really a "woman" in his own mind anymore (or ever, he just got confused back there), and he's convinced that he has it figured out now, he could move on as a "eunuch". It has been done to men before: they've had their privy member removed as well, as a punishment of the maximum order. Well, your friend is punishing himself now for a mistake. IDing as the male he was born to be seems like his choice, and everybody ought to respect that, for as long as it lasts that is; he can always change his mind again, and that would be returning to the original sin, which was the "sex change". If he's denying it, he should be allowed to express that denial as fully as he can. I think the church advice is wrong-headed. But that's just my reaction to what you've shared, for what it's worth. I'm not saying that he should be given a temple recommend anytime soon, though....

Then, for him, the atonement lacks value.

[EllenMaksoud]

QB, I think it depends on his reasons for wanting to return to living as a male and whether or not it is for himself or others and whether or not he is spiritually guided to do so by the Spirit.

This is the conundrum for him then. No one can tell by looking at him/her and the admission that she is personally extremely happy in her current role. So, as far as I can tell, she is willing to revert to get a temple recommend, and to make up with the family. So, in my estimation, she is willing to sacrifice personal happiness do what? This is sick, IMHO

[ERayR]

This is the conundrum for him then. No one can tell by looking at him/her and the admission that she is personally extremely happy in her current role. So, as far as I can tell, she is willing to revert to get a temple recommend, and to make up with the family. So, in my estimation, she is willing to sacrifice personal happiness do what? This is sick, IMHO

And that is not a reason to issue a temple recommend.

[Avatar4321]

This is the conundrum for him then. No one can tell by looking at him/her and the admission that she is personally extremely happy in her current role. So, as far as I can tell, she is willing to revert to get a temple recommend, and to make up with the family. So, in my estimation, she is willing to sacrifice personal happiness do what? This is sick, IMHO

Following the Gospel will give people personal happiness. How do you sacrifice personal happiness by doing what is right, when righteousness leads to true happiness?

[Calm]

she is willing to revert to get a temple recommend, and to make up with the family. So, in my estimation, she is willing to sacrifice personal happiness do what?

I suspect she believes she will be happier among her family than alone. However, since she is unlikely to be getting a temple recommend at this point, the only reason she should be focusing on is about getting back with her family and whether or not this will likely occur even if she does revert to living as a male.

Something this drastic imo needs to be driven by an internal desire to change, to be different....not by a desire to please someone else because so often once the change occurs, the other person treats one pretty much as usual which can be heartbreaking (because people treat others in certain ways probably more because of what they are like themselves than what the other person is like and if they don't change themselves, no matter what the other person does, their treatment doesn't change either).

Like I've said before, counseling seems to be in order to help her be realistic and place her priorities in the right place and if she really does want to change...for herself/himself, than to help her go through that in a systematic, effective manner that addresses the mental and emotional as well as the physical side of change.

Edited June 10, 2013 by calmoriah

[canard78]

Following the Gospel will give people personal happiness.

Except for when it doesn't. I can say with absolute certainty that my wife is a happier, more balanced and more fulfilled person having left the church. I'm not saying that's a one-size-fits-all solution for every member (myself included). But God writes a personal curriculum for each of his children. Seems Mormonism is only on the course-list for about 0.05% of his children.

[rpn]

The practical problem is that your mortal priesthood leaders cannot really sort out what blessings to pronounce on this person. Whether or not a transexual person reverts to the original sex, there is a sexual ambiguity that cannot be resolved in the earthly sphere. And yes, this means that the person cannot go to the temple (at least that is what it means today, with current knowledge and inspiration, we know that can change by revelation). But I'm not sure how you make the leap that it prevents the atonement from working in her life. The atonement is what will heal the pain while she is living through this life doing her best, enjoying the gospel but without temple blessings. The atonement is what will wipe away all sins of which she repents.

An analogy might be a woman who is unfertile ---- the atonement can heal her pain, but won't make her able to give birth to the children she so very righteously desires. Or a woman who remains single when she would like to marry, has prepared to marry. Again the atonement works to redeem her sins and to heal the hurt, but it doesn't assure she will find and marry an eternal companion.

I don't know the heavenly or even mortal reasons for prohibiting temple worship for those who have had sex change operations. But I have to think that it is wrong for priesthood leaders to decide such things when they have to do with our eternal natures --- which surely you admit that even your transsexual friend would acknowledge is tough to figure out in practical and emotional ways. The temple blessings for each gender are slightly different as are the eternal roles. A lifespan is not too long a wait so it gets sorted out accurately for the eternities.

Just hang on.