Life Without A Temple Recommend

[Calm]

Whether or not a transexual person reverts to the original sex, there is a sexual ambiguity that cannot be resolved in the earthly sphere.

The same thing happens with children and none of them are banned from the temple. They go with the gender that is chosen. I don't think it is just the difficulty of deciding what gender to place him/her in that is at issue. Edited June 10, 2013 by calmoriah

[EllenMaksoud]

The practical problem is that your mortal priesthood leaders cannot really sort out what blessings to pronounce on this person. Whether or not a transexual person reverts to the original sex, there is a sexual ambiguity that cannot be resolved in the earthly sphere. And yes, this means that the person cannot go to the temple (at least that is what it means today, with current knowledge and inspiration, we know that can change by revelation). But I'm not sure how you make the leap that it prevents the atonement from working in her life. The atonement is what will heal the pain while she is living through this life doing her best, enjoying the gospel but without temple blessings. The atonement is what will wipe away all sins of which she repents.

An analogy might be a woman who is unfertile ---- the atonement can heal her pain, but won't make her able to give birth to the children she so very righteously desires. Or a woman who remains single when she would like to marry, has prepared to marry. Again the atonement works to redeem her sins and to heal the hurt, but it doesn't assure she will find and marry an eternal companion.

I don't know the heavenly or even mortal reasons for prohibiting temple worship for those who have had sex change operations. But I have to think that it is wrong for priesthood leaders to decide such things when they have to do with our eternal natures --- which surely you admit that even your transsexual friend would acknowledge is tough to figure out in practical and emotional ways. The temple blessings for each gender are slightly different as are the eternal roles. A lifespan is not too long a wait so it gets sorted out accurately for the eternities.

Just hang on.

In this case, I respectfully submit that we can blithely say that her life time is not too long to wait to be blessed, but none of us here have experienced that, so can not rightfully say that her pain is tolerable. In my case, I am the "graceless third party", so it is doubly hard to keep quiet on the issue.

[EllenMaksoud]

The same thing happens with children and none of them are banned from the temple. They go with the gender that is chosen. I don't think it is just the difficulty of deciding what gender to place him/her in that is at issue.

In this discussion, I have realized that while I said I would obey the GA and those in authority over me in the church, much to my astonishment, I realize that I do not trust men, and I do not know how to fix that. LDS men have generally been extremely nice to me. I will pray for healing from Heavenly Father.

[ERayR]

In this discussion, I have realized that while I said I would obey the GA and those in authority over me in the church, much to my astonishment, I realize that I do not trust men, and I do not know how to fix that. LDS men have generally been extremely nice to me. I will pray for healing from Heavenly Father.

I can understand. Our experiences can certainly make it difficult to trust. May you receive the comfort you need and desire.

[Calm]

I will pray for healing from Heavenly Father.

The most effective way to go when one doesn't even know where to start.

[Tacenda]

In this discussion, I have realized that while I said I would obey the GA and those in authority over me in the church, much to my astonishment, I realize that I do not trust men, and I do not know how to fix that. LDS men have generally been extremely nice to me. I will pray for healing from Heavenly Father.

I would try to get an answer from above not from men. Which I'm sure you do, and place more significance on your intuition and that relationship with Him. How do we know if the leaders got it wrong? Some statements I've read in the church, have stated that first and foremost go to the Lord first, He is our authority. I think your friend should go by what his/her heart is telling them, that is the Lord speaking too. The holy spirit trumps men in religion, religions change all the time because of this. I don't believe any religion is perfect, because men aren't perfect, and the bible and the b.o.m are not perfect because the men in it could have been schizophrenic and heard voices in the heads for all we know. IMO, your friend changed their sex for a good reason, who would go through all that pain and suffereing for no "good" reason. People need to back off, and your friend should trust the Lord that they will be with their family in heaven.

[Calm]

People need to back off, and your friend should trust the Lord that they will be with their family in heaven.

My understanding of the situation is the only one pushing for a reversion is the individual herself.

But you are right, everyone does need to stand back a bit and help her by allowing her to find her own way, not telling her what it is...even Ellen, who means the best by her friend. Too much noise, even from friends, can interfere with the Spirit.

Edited June 10, 2013 by calmoriah

[EllenMaksoud]

I would try to get an answer from above not from men. Which I'm sure you do, and place more significance on your intuition and that relationship with Him. How do we know if the leaders got it wrong? Some statements I've read in the church, have stated that first and foremost go to the Lord first, He is our authority. I think your friend should go by what his/her heart is telling them, that is the Lord speaking too. The holy spirit trumps men in religion, religions change all the time because of this. I don't believe any religion is perfect, because men aren't perfect, and the bible and the b.o.m are not perfect because the men in it could have been schizophrenic and heard voices in the heads for all we know. IMO, your friend changed their sex for a good reason, who would go through all that pain and suffereing for no "good" reason. People need to back off, and your friend should trust the Lord that they will be with their family in heaven.

Agreed.

[EllenMaksoud]

My understanding of the situation is the only one pushing for a reversion is the individual herself.

But you are right, everyone does need to stand back a bit and help her by allowing her to find her own way, not telling her what it is...even Ellen, who means the best by her friend. Too much noise, even from friends, can interfere with the Spirit.

It has made me wonder if continuing grief at the loss of her family has led to an adjustment disorder. It is my intention to be very quiet while listening to her. Perhaps it is her family who are the worst sinners?

[Calm]

Perhaps it is her family who are the worst sinners?

My experience is that it isn't helpful to look at problems this way. It creates unnecessary anger and a need to do something when we may not actually be able to do anything. Rather one could rewrite the idea of "worst sinners" to "those with the most issues" or "those who really need to work on seeking the spirit" or even "those with the greatest burden" because sin is a horrible burden to bear when one is thinking one is perfectly alright.

But also....I am assuming you weren't there during the time period where your friend explained to his family what he had chosen to go through and how he reacted to their reactions. It may have been that they have very good reasons to be cautious around her now, that at the time he was the aggressor and they were the ones being attacked for not being what he wanted them to be. Or they could have been absolute jerks from the moment he came into their lives and doublely so when he became a she. One just can't know...but one can be sympathetic to everyone involved. No matter what happened before, they all are not as happy as they could be if they could forgive each other and love again freely....and that is the goal friends should try to work for if possible.

Edited June 10, 2013 by calmoriah

[ERayR]

My experience is that it isn't helpful to look at problems this way. It creates unnecessary anger and a need to do something when we may not actually be able to do anything. Rather one could rewrite the idea of "worst sinners" to "those with the most issues" or "those who really need to work on seeking the spirit" or even "those with the greatest burden" because sin is a horrible burden to bear when one is thinking one is perfectly alright.

But also....I am assuming you weren't there during the time period where your friend explained to his family what he had chosen to go through and how he reacted to their reactions. It may have been that they have very good reasons to be cautious around her now, that at the time he was the aggressor and they were the ones being attacked for not being what he wanted them to be. Or they could have been absolute jerks from the moment he came into their lives and doublely so when he became a she. One just can't know...but one can be sympathetic to everyone involved. No matter what happened before, they all are not as happy as they could be if they could forgive each other and love again freely....and that is the goal friends should try to work for if possible.

I am certain that there was all of the above.

[Yep]

In this discussion, I have realized that while I said I would obey the GA and those in authority over me in the church, much to my astonishment, I realize that I do not trust men, and I do not know how to fix that.

I think this is becoming a more and more prevalent problem in the world today. I have run into problems where women would not allow their men to be the head of their households and took the role of mother/wife and most of the role of father/husband. This often leads to strong resentment on the part of the men and often creates problems with women claiming men desiring to control women. This is due to poor examples of husbands and fathers, but regardless of the justifications, gender roles are in place for a reason. If families do not follow the pattern set up by God, then the family will fail. Now, I don't believe that the man or the woman should be above the other. The perception of one role being above the other is a perception that I believe was designed by Satan. They should be equals, but their responsibilities need to follow God's plan for success.

[EllenMaksoud]

My experience is that it isn't helpful to look at problems this way. It creates unnecessary anger and a need to do something when we may not actually be able to do anything. Rather one could rewrite the idea of "worst sinners" to "those with the most issues" or "those who really need to work on seeking the spirit" or even "those with the greatest burden" because sin is a horrible burden to bear when one is thinking one is perfectly alright.

But also....I am assuming you weren't there during the time period where your friend explained to his family what he had chosen to go through and how he reacted to their reactions. It may have been that they have very good reasons to be cautious around her now, that at the time he was the aggressor and they were the ones being attacked for not being what he wanted them to be. Or they could have been absolute jerks from the moment he came into their lives and doublely so when he became a she. One just can't know...but one can be sympathetic to everyone involved. No matter what happened before, they all are not as happy as they could be if they could forgive each other and love again freely....and that is the goal friends should try to work for if possible.

Perhaps it is I who need to be clear that just because I am starting this month to take Psychology classes at PSU, doesn't mean I know anything. My own opinion of "her" plight is opposite of her efforts right now, so I need to keep more quiet.

[Calm]

Perhaps it is I who need to be clear that just because I am starting this month to take Psychology classes at PSU, doesn't mean I know anything. My own opinion of "her" plight is opposite of her efforts right now, so I need to keep more quiet.

Considering your background I would be surprised if you didn't as those of us who have had issues in our own lives are generally the ones who go out and try to figure out why. Also, we all need reminding of the standards of human behaviour when we get personally involved as it is too easy for our own emotions to mislead us or get us caught up so we don't think as clearly as we would if we were looking at a clinical file.

In the end after sharing ideas with others, for you, just like for her, you are the one who knows what is best for yourself.

[ERayR]

Perhaps it is I who need to be clear that just because I am starting this month to take Psychology classes at PSU, doesn't mean I know anything. My own opinion of "her" plight is opposite of her efforts right now, so I need to keep more quiet.

Having experience this in my own family I know that there are actions and reactions, both good and bad, from all. I am certain that your friend had some "in your face" moments with family as well as receiving a variety of reactions(shock, disbelief, scorn, rejection etc) from family. I am also certain that at some point the religious ramifications as well as the medical ramifications were explained. Your friend made choices at that time. Choices have consequences both good and bad. Now the consequences have come back to bite. The best thing for you to do is to not take your friends consequences as your own and help her to understand that.

[Stone holm]

The policy used to be that a person who has a sex change could not even be baptised, in any event. I know of no sin save the sin against the Holy Ghost, and also possibly 1st Degree Murder that will keep you from eventually receiving all of the Temple blessings even though you might not receive them in this life. Temple work will eventually be done for him/her either after his/her death or in the Millenium. It does not appear that we are free, however, to choose our gender that apparently was irrevocably determined before we came down here except possibly in the case of the hermaphrodite. He/She is admittedly in a tough psychological place. I really, really wish it was a lot more difficult for people to get those surgeries.

[EllenMaksoud]

Considering your background I would be surprised if you didn't as those of us who have had issues in our own lives are generally the ones who go out and try to figure out why. Also, we all need reminding of the standards of human behaviour when we get personally involved as it is too easy for our own emotions to mislead us or get us caught up so we don't think as clearly as we would if we were looking at a clinical file.

In the end after sharing ideas with others, for you, just like for her, you are the one who knows what is best for yourself.

]Well, as you know, I am Inter-sexed and that has somehow led to contact with many of the GBLT set, and am working on some rational explanation as to why Transgenderisim exists. At the moment, it does not seem that there is anything satanic at all for part of that group. I just don't know how to describe another part of the group. Can it be that untreated trauma can cause some of it?

After the Vietnam war, no one even knew what PTSD was. Now days, that is not the case, though I think that treatment protocols are still developing. My background is in Engineering and Technical, and why Psychology is interesting now, I have no idea.

Much to my dismay, I am becoming an activist protesting over medication of some classes of patients; the reason being that I think that certain drugs just exacerbate certain issues.

[Stone holm]

]Well, as you know, I am Inter-sexed and that has somehow led to contact with many of the GBLT set, and am working on some rational explanation as to why Transgenderisim exists. At the moment, it does not seem that there is anything satanic at all for part of that group. I just don't know how to describe another part of the group. Can it be that untreated trauma can cause some of it?

After the Vietnam war, no one even knew what PTSD was. Now days, that is not the case, though I think that treatment protocols are still developing. My background is in Engineering and Technical, and why Psychology is interesting now, I have no idea.

Much to my dismay, I am becoming an activist protesting over medication of some classes of patients; the reason being that I think that certain drugs just exacerbate certain issues.

If you ever figure out the rational explanation, I would be interested in hearing it. I have only had one encounter with this situation and it was with a hometeaching family whose eldest adult son decided to become a she. It occurred right after the Church announced its policy. I could not get my head around the whole situation enough to be of any comfort to them at the time and it was heartbreaking to all who knew the family and the situation.

[Kenngo1969]

In this discussion, I have realized that while I said I would obey the GA and those in authority over me in the church, much to my astonishment, I realize that I do not trust men, and I do not know how to fix that. LDS men have generally been extremely nice to me. I will pray for healing from Heavenly Father.

That is a wise course, and may you find the interpersonal healing you seek.

[EllenMaksoud]

If you ever figure out the rational explanation, I would be interested in hearing it. I have only had one encounter with this situation and it was with a hometeaching family whose eldest adult son decided to become a she. It occurred right after the Church announced its policy. I could not get my head around the whole situation enough to be of any comfort to them at the time and it was heartbreaking to all who knew the family and the situation.

Well fortunately, about .2% of the world population has gender issues, so in the harsh reality of scientific opinion, they are expendable.

The population of intersexed folk is much larger, and there are actually quite a number of us running around un- incarcerated. Certain high profile actresses are that way and no one seems to care, thankfully.

[Calm]

The best thing for you to do is to not take your friends consequences as your own and help her to understand that.

This is a great saying for everything when it comes to us getting involved in helping others. I must remember it.

[Questing Beast]

I agree forgiveness is possible and even likely. But which temple covenants are administered(male or female) is probably best left up to one who does not err.

Which is NOBODY, for all have come short of the kingdom of God.

What I said earlier is the only possible policy: in the primitive church there was a class of human being that was called "eunuch". They were deprived of their reproductive organs, but not typically their privy member; they still IDed as men, just castrated ones. Ellen's friend has taken this one huge step further and IDs as "female". That cannot be undone by putting on airs as a "man". If she drops the "she" IDing and reverts to male IDing, and keeps this up for a sufficient amount of time to show full repentance for violating his eternal male nature ("Proclamation on the Family" is very specific here - all cases of gender confusion in this world are caused by corruption), then and only then would it even be possible to contemplate the temple....

[ERayR]

Which is NOBODY, for all have come short of the kingdom of God.

I am going to have to beep you offstage for a wrong answer.

The Correct answer would be . . drum roll... That would be Jesus Christ - Savior and redeemer.

[Questing Beast]

I think this is becoming a more and more prevalent problem in the world today. I have run into problems where women would not allow their men to be the head of their households and took the role of mother/wife and most of the role of father/husband. This often leads to strong resentment on the part of the men and often creates problems with women claiming men desiring to control women. This is due to poor examples of husbands and fathers, but regardless of the justifications, gender roles are in place for a reason. If families do not follow the pattern set up by God, then the family will fail. Now, I don't believe that the man or the woman should be above the other. The perception of one role being above the other is a perception that I believe was designed by Satan. They should be equals, but their responsibilities need to follow God's plan for success.

And what is "God's plan for success"?

The hard-line LDS nuclear family, with eternal gender fixed in place in the preexistence, is fadingly convincing. It was always in trouble when ignoring the phenomenon of hermaphroditism, where a decision must be made at birth which gender to choose. There are other kinds of physical and emotional or mental confusion when speaking about gender. That is more true now than within recorded memory. Regardless of what primitive Christianity (Paul) had to say about men dressing and behaving as female, the modern Church is faced with the very real capacity to alter one's gender, and in the future possibly even making procreation possible. It bears thinking about. If a "woman" is defined by physical attributes, then I know of many who function as female alright, but look far more masculine than most men. The same is true the other way of looking at it. Many males are effeminate and even their mannerisms are emphasized that way because it is okay now almost everywhere.

If a son of yours married a woman how would you ever know that she had always been "female" today? Impossible to know, especially if your son knew beforehand and between them they kept the secret. It is also possible for the "woman" to not tell your son, and to pretend to be infertile naturally, "woe is me, we shall never have a child", so let's adopt. Most men would not have a clue that the "woman" was not always a woman. (How does this work in reverse? I have never heard of a functioning transgender of woman to man....)

[Stone holm]

I think this is becoming a more and more prevalent problem in the world today. I have run into problems where women would not allow their men to be the head of their households and took the role of mother/wife and most of the role of father/husband. This often leads to strong resentment on the part of the men and often creates problems with women claiming men desiring to control women. This is due to poor examples of husbands and fathers, but regardless of the justifications, gender roles are in place for a reason. If families do not follow the pattern set up by God, then the family will fail. Now, I don't believe that the man or the woman should be above the other. The perception of one role being above the other is a perception that I believe was designed by Satan. They should be equals, but their responsibilities need to follow God's plan for success.

Wow...I know plenty of Mormon women who would hand you your head for less than what you managed to cram into that paragraph. I suspect in the coming decades you are going to see the Church move farther and farther away from gender stereotyping. Yes, gender is important in the eternities -- not at all sure that gender stereotyping is however.